Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[Nicholas Lewis]

I will stick my neck out here and say it [isn’t] the end of HS2. It is scrapped north of Birmingham (for now). The ESG and Diversity & Inclusion nonsense and wider waste, meaning it costs many times more to build this in the UK than other countries must end. Once we created a better framework for infrastructure delivery (yes, we are talking years) then it is my belief a later government will look at this again. Our culture is wrong. Everything needs to be reset, costs controlled, methods changed. The consultant gravy train will be replaced.

Totally spot on and real leadersip would have called out all these contributing factors as to why HS2 costs had spiralled and deliverability become a multi decades project then any alternatives proposed today, however laudable (and i believe they are), will just come up against the same issues.

As you say the only people celebrating today will be the consultancy groups who are the real enemies that sunk HS2 in the first place.

 

[Cestrian21]

Any electrification is good, but why go for North Wales first?

I'd love to see the North Wales Coast wired but is it really worth it at the moment, the Euston services will benefit but most local services will still need DMUs, won't they?

And I'd put money on the Ffestiniog branch remaining diesel only in the same way the Windermere branch was never electrified.

There are lots of marginal constituencies in North Wales, that's why. Not that it matters, it's never going to happen, the business case will never stack up.

 

[Verulamius]

I wonder if interested parties will seek a judicial review of the PM’s decision?

Someone should do a freedom of information request for the business case analysis backing this decision.

 

[Phil56]

So-called 'fast' trains are (at present) not that reliable. Even if that were solved (probably mainly a staffing issue), both routes have a poor local service, especially at the Manchester end. Increasing their frequency would restrict capacity, so you either need a completely new line or four-tracking one or the other. And I wouldn't call 40 minutes for an express service between two major cities 30+ miles apart 'fast enough'.

2.5 to 3 hours between York and Lancaster (about 80 miles) isn't "fast" either.

And anyone who regularly uses the motorways around Manchester knows that they're poor with daily massive congestion problems, especially towards Leeds.

 

[brad465]

Wow - Euston reduced to 6 and the sale of compulsory land that that the government bought for phase 2 has begun. Scorched earth policy so Labour can't reinstate. Disgraceful behaviour and a failure of democracy

I hope someone is able to find out who buys that land...and their connections.

 

[rbannocks]

I wonder if interested parties will seek a judicial review of the PM’s decision?

Lets hope so, but I am not sure on what grounds. Perhaps unfairness to those outside the South East (which will now be extedned to include the London Brough of Birmingham). Cartianly the sale of land could be blocked.

I still fail to see why we need to tunnel to Euston. That is stupid and expensive. According to this forum the tunnels at Old Oak Common point towards Paddington. Build a terminus underneath that and save the tunneling accross Central London. Also as commented above canceling to Crewe pure madness.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

£12 billion to improve Liverpool-Manchester links is an incredible sum.

Not really NR have managed to turn TRU into an 11B project

 

[IanD]

Bradford (Low Moor) to Manchester (Littleborough) might be doable in 30 minutes.

 

[DC1989]

It's always jam tomorrow for the north isn't it? Yet the home counties will have the extra capacity to run more local services to regional hubs that the north was promised. Milton Keynes for example will get an extra 5 trains in the morning peak to Euston - a 76% increase in the number of available commuter seats.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Quelle surprise, Netwrok Rail wasn't consulted on this Network North plan:

https://twitter.com/christianwolmar/status/1709575467546587275

Given there part of the out of control cost problem of new rail infrastructure ne TRU now costing 11B its hardly surprising

 

[glasgowniteowl]

I hope someone is able to find out who buys that land...and their connections.

I may be wrong here, but I believe land can't be compulsory purchased twice for the same thing so if it is sold off it can't be used for hs2 in the future if a new government choose to reinstate unless the new land owner willingly sell it, just something around the land involved in Glasgow airport rail link rings a bell on this

 

[Chuffing Heck]

I don’t believe a word of it, it is just window dressing to try and keep dissent at a minimum, none of it will happen, they can’t even finish the western electrification, yet alone complete or start any new projects.
Once again the railways lose out and we the passengers are forced to put up with a Victorian system, while more roads are built so we can be taxed even more!

 

[hux385]

I find it hilarious that when HS2 was first announced, there was a significant proportion of the country that (rightly or wrongly) believed the money should be spent on more upgrades to existing infrastructure rather than one expensive mainline. For years we have to-and-fro'd with this debate, and after settling for the expensive mainline option, we now seem to be in a situation where the localised upgrades are now being promoted as the more 'effective' option. It feels like there have been so many stats thrown around to try and convince us that one particular way is better than the other, but in the end, I'm left confused as to what the best appoach/outcome is to be, and I don't really know what to make of the latest situation!

 

[jayah]

Calling Bald Rick, you corrected me some time ago for saying this would not go to manchester. Im nothing if not magmanimous in victory, but this is absolutley nothing to celebreate. Hugey dissapointing.

HS2 will cost £100B. Once. It boosts UK GDP by £100B every year. This is truly penny wise and pound foolish.

HM Treasury wins again. Every UK citizen will lose out.

You pay, they spend, and life in the UK gets harder. Rinse and repeat.

If any of you think the £36B will materialise, please get in touch directly, I have a number of beutiful bridges for sale. Why cancel a project that is already being built, if not for saving money, only to go and spend the money elsewhere. HMT must think we are fools.

It wouldn't have boosted GDP by even its original budgeted cost. That is why the tine savings to users could never be monetised. There were relatively few benefits to anyone else, unless a completely new economic model is invented.

The idea you should never cancel a project once it starts construction is also known as the fallacy of sunk costs. We were lucky this was cancelled relatively early, better it should not have seen the light of day.

Someone else can remind us how many hundreds of MPs voted almost without opposition to spending this money, a few short years ago.

 

[HSTEd]

I may be wrong here, but I believe land can't be compulsory purchased twice for the same thing so if it is sold off it can't be used for hs2 in the future if a new government choose to reinstate unless the new land owner willingly sell it, just something around the land involved in Glasgow airport rail link rings a bell on this

That may have been because the powers used to acquire the line had sunsetted.

The powers for HS2 Phase 2A don't expire until 2026 at the earliest.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What needs to be taken from this whatever your view is a Tory leader has made transport improvements, ok both public and road, a key part of a conference speech which im pretty sure in my 60+ years on planet earth has never happened before. This is good it elevates public transport to the national media and has got a lot of discussion going over the last week. Will it all get delivered who knows but what my 60+ years tell me is that you cant believe any politician in this country anyhow.

 

[MontyP]

#58 - "...cut direct journey times from Nottingham to Leeds by around an hour"

How would this be possible? Current journey time from Leeds to Nottingham is 1hr 50min. So it would need to be cut to 50 mins. I would think that the easiest way would be to build a new north to west curve near Newark from the ECML to the Lincoln-Nottingham line. But even then, the current Leeds-Newark time is around 55 mins and Newark-Nottingham around 15 mins. Are there any paths on the ECML?

 

[MadMarsupial]

It's always jam tomorrow for the north isn't it? Yet the home counties will have the extra capacity to run more local services to regional hubs that the north was promised. Milton Keynes for example will get an extra 5 trains in the morning peak to Euston - a 76% increase in the number of available commuter seats.

I'm not that sure the "jam" will even be tomorrow. There is no timescale given in Sunak's speech for the works. It is quite possible the works will be spread over an even greater span of time that that envisaged for HS2 ( north ) with the road improvements given priority for the next few years.

 

[Barn]

Am I right in thinking we will now have "classic compatible" trains only on HS2 (and if they have to tilt on the WCML, possibly even smaller than some UK stock)?

That would mean that we have seriously overengineered the loading gauge on HS2.

 

[Wivenswold]

I have to say I'm baffled from a political stand-point. It feels as though the PM announcing the cancellation of the Manchester section of HS2 in a speech in Manchester may turn out to be one of the most memorable of political own goals of our time.

 

[30907]

Forgive me not reading the previous 9 pages, but I have skimmed the list of projects instead. Basically every remotely possible rail reopening project you can think of so long as it doesn't connect Birmingham and Manchester.

And BTW the Scotland section references roads in Cumbria and Northumberland

 

[Oxfordblues]

About 3km north of Fenny Compton near Holmes House the Oxford to Rugby railway takes a sudden lurch to the left after a last-minute change of direction towards Birmingham. The redundant earthworks are still visible. I wonder what today's decision will mean in terms of abandoned infrastructure which will stand as a permanent monument to Government vacillation on major transport projects?

 

[Danfilm007]

Which, IMHO, makes sense

Given the regularity of the services that could be extended to Chester and the freight that runs through it would work quite well.

 

[MadCommuter]

Forgive me not reading the previous 9 pages, but I have skimmed the list of projects instead. Basically every remotely possible rail reopening project you can think of so long as it doesn't connect Birmingham and Manchester.

And BTW the Scotland section references roads in Cumbria and Northumberland

I saw the A75 to Stranraer on the list. That isn't in Westminster's 'jurisdiction.

 

[Arkeeos]

Forgive me not reading the previous 9 pages, but I have skimmed the list of projects instead. Basically every remotely possible rail reopening project you can think of so long as it doesn't connect Birmingham and Manchester.

And BTW the Scotland section references roads in Cumbria and Northumberland

Its just a dump of any policy remotely considered, it seems like it was written in a week and it also seems likely that no one actually knowledgeable about transport was consulted, it's a worthless document. People have pointed out that it pledges to expand the Manchester Metrolink to the airport, which already exists, if they were talking about the loop, well that was to connect to HS2 which also no longer exists.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What needs to be taken from this whatever your view is a Tory leader has made transport improvements, ok both public and road, a key part of a conference speech which im pretty sure in my 60+ years on planet earth has never happened before. This is good it elevates public transport to the national media and has got a lot of discussion going over the last week.

I mean if those improvements were a key part of the conference speech on their own merits then I would agree with you. But the only reason they are there is to soften the blow of the HS2 axing. I.e. the improvements aren't things they want to do, its just stuff being said to try to keep some amount of the electorate on side. It's just talk, nothing more.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

when HS2 was first proposed back in 2009 it was just the Euston to Birmingham section that will be confirmed and at least we will have more length of dedicated high speed infrastructure than any other English speaking nation including US and Australia (I know that California has had HSR under construction but that has its own problems)

That is a fairly low bar, you could have thrown Canada and New Zealand in there as well.
The way things are going with CA-HSR you will probably have HS2 and Crossrail 2 done before it is running.

Looking forward to that North Wales Coast electrification. I am planning a trip from Dublin to London via SailRail - no doubt this electrification will be done in time for my trip in October 2024

 

[gazzaa2]

I don’t believe a word of it, it is just window dressing to try and keep dissent at a minimum, none of it will happen, they can’t even finish the western electrification, yet alone complete or start any new projects.
Once again the railways lose out and we the passengers are forced to put up with a Victorian system, while more roads are built so we can be taxed even more!

They know they won't have to deliver any of it as they'll be booted out of office next year.

 

[Barn]

The £36bn redistribution won't, I am sure, be on top of the existing normal capital spends.

What will happen is that every bit of capital spend on transport from now on (whether it might have happened otherwise or not) will be treated as an HS2 dividend.

 

[76020]

Yes the business case for it is probably lower than Cardiff to Swansea.

bet tfw not impressed. Money would have been better spent finishing the GWML electrification to Oxford, Bristol TM and Swansea and get Swindon-Gloucester -Severn Tunnel Junction done

Sunak wants to include any Northern Rail project, as Cardiff to Swansea is in South Wales, it does not qualify.