Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[SteveM70]

Look at section 47 - extending the Manchester Metrolink to various places, including Manchester Airport. When did that open? 2014?

Has anybody in number 10 even proofread this crap?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What needs to be taken from this whatever your view is a Tory leader has made transport improvements, ok both public and road, a key part of a conference speech which im pretty sure in my 60+ years on planet earth has never happened before. This is good it elevates public transport to the national media and has got a lot of discussion going over the last week. Will it all get delivered who knows but what my 60+ years tell me is that you cant believe any politician in this country anyhow.

You only need to look at how many of the commitments in the 2012 HLOS were or were not delivered:
- GW electrification (to Oxford/Bristol TM/Swansea, Thames Valley branches, Reading-Basingstoke, Acton bank)
- electric spine
- MML electrification (now going ahead again, a decade later)
- conversion of SW DC route west of Basingstoke to AC
- wiring to Windermere
- E-W rebuilding (in progress, but without wires)

 

[MontyP]

I find it hilarious that when HS2 was first announced, there was a significant proportion of the country that (rightly or wrongly) believed the money should be spent on more upgrades to existing infrastructure rather than one expensive mainline. For years we have to-and-fro'd with this debate, and after settling for the expensive mainline option, we now seem to be in a situation where the localised upgrades are now being promoted as the more 'effective' option. It feels like there have been so many stats thrown around to try and convince us that one particular way is better than the other, but in the end, I'm left confused as to what the best appoach/outcome is to be, and I don't really know what to make of the latest situation!

But the debate has been between a new line or a proper series of strategic improvements e.g. on the ECML - the viaduct at Welwyn, Newark flat crossing etc. The hotch pitch of projects announced today have no coherence, they are just a random set of fanciful (or even delusional) wishlist ideas thrown together just before his speech. I mean on what planet are they on if Oswestry to Gobowen is part of the solution?

 

[jack31439]

Look at section 47 - extending the Manchester Metrolink to various places, including Manchester Airport. When did that open? 2014?

Has anybody in number 10 even proofread this crap?

That whole quote means nothing. "Could pay for schemes such as local roads in the Tees Valley". Whoever wrote that knows it means nothing and that it is empty words. If even 5% of anything mentioned genuinely happens then I will be shocked.

The further cynical side is that the majority of the places named are typically marginal constituencies. Sorry Rishi but I think it's a little late if you think this'll save you next year.

 

[SteveM70]

the hotch pitch of projects announced today have no coherence, they are just a random set of fanciful (or even delusional) wishlist ideas thrown together just before his speech

I can imagine that this list began life as a shared google sheet linked in an email to everyone in number 10 asking them to contribute anything they can think of that may have been mentioned over the last five years or so.

It makes The Thick Of It look like responsible government by adults

That whole quote means nothing. "Could pay for schemes such as local roads in the Tees Valley". Whoever wrote that knows it means nothing and that it is empty words. If even 5% of anything mentioned genuinely happens then I will be shocked.

The further cynical side is that the majority of the places named are typically marginal constituencies. Sorry Rishi but I think it's a little late if you think this'll save you next year.

Indeed, but not including stuff that happened a decade ago might be wise

 

[21C101]

Personally I dont think this is an altogether bad decision.

Euston has been kept and Manchester won't be a great deal slower with HS2 trains joining the Trent Valley north of Lichfield. It is certainly good news for Stoke on Trent, Macclesfield and Stockport.

If North Wales line is juiced then that too can join HS2 south of Rugeley.

The most interesting part of the announcement, HS2 wise was that they will still be running trains to Leeds via HS2 together with the announcement that Sheffield to Leeds will be juiced; so it looks like Euston to Leeds via Trent is planned

Best news of the day for me though is that some of the cash saved is to be used to reopen Bere Alston to Tavistock.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You only need to look at how many of the commitments in the 2012 HLOS were or were not delivered:
- GW electrification (to Oxford/Bristol TM/Swansea, Thames Valley branches, Reading-Basingstoke, Acton bank)
- electric spine
- MML electrification (now going ahead again, a decade later)
- conversion of SW DC route west of Basingstoke to AC
- wiring to Windermere
- E-W rebuilding (in progress, but without wires)

Yup but lets not forget what lay at the route of those announcements. The commitment was there for those projects and even some extra funding was agreed for GWEP not once but twice but that project destroyed any faith the Torys had in the ability of NR to deliver on their promises. Yes it was a naff decision but a necessary one to shake things up. MML and Scotland and now helping to restore faith that electrication can be delivered at the budget agreed.

 

[Kettledrum]

I'm not that sure the "jam" will even be tomorrow. There is no timescale given in Sunak's speech for the works. It is quite possible the works will be spread over an even greater span of time that that envisaged for HS2 ( north ) with the road improvements given priority for the next few years.

I predict that there will be no "jam" tomorrow. Rail schemes take an awful long time in the planning, and compulsory purchase powers etc. HS2 has been years in the planning, and now this is cancelled. The only jam I can definitely predict will happen out of this will be the daily jams on the M6 between Birmingham and Crewe.

I also predict that history will judge this as one of the most inept pieces of transport strategy decisions and political foolhardiness ever.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sunak wants to include any Northern Rail project, as Cardiff to Swansea is in South Wales, it does not qualify.

 

[The Planner]

The most interesting part of the announcement, HS2 wise was that they will still be running trains to Leeds via HS2 together with the announcement that Sheffield to Leeds will be juiced; so it looks like Euston to Leeds via Trent is planned

Which is ridiculous as the ECML would still be the much faster route. No trains will run Euston Leeds.

 

[Diedinium]

Extremely depressing news - many other countries in Europe (Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Switzerland) plus even much poorer countries than the UK (Indonesia, Morocco) are managing to build high speed rail lines, why can't we?

Just another example of the decline of this country under the Tories, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on the other projects announced today never materialising as well... well, except the road related ones, since the Tories seem to love cars and hate the environment so much.

Also, if HS2 was costing so much, how can they justify spending the money on other projects anyway? It's why it makes me think that the money will never appear for these other projects, as they're just trying to cut out a big budget item and pretend that they'll totally spend the money on others instead (when the reality is they don't care as the spending commitments for these projects are probably after the next election).

Feels like outright sabotage, bet they'll be quick about selling off the land acquired for HS2 as well to make sure that Labour can't restart it if they get elected.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Which is ridiculous as the ECML would still be the much faster route. No trains will run Euston Leeds.

Well given Euston HS is being reduced to six platforms they wont have the capacity anyhow. This is just now an expensive WCML capacity relief project surely.

 

[Deepgreen]

It makes the train planning something of a pain, but I would hesitate to say it makes it "impossible".

6 Platform termini have managed 18tph before, although there would have to be operational compromises.

Surely many more than 18 - Charing Cross, for example?

Well given Euston HS is being reduced to six platforms they wont have the capacity anyhow. This is just now an expensive WCML capacity relief project surely.

That's essentially what it always was, surely - hence those claiming its only benefit being to get to Birmingham 20 minutes sooner deemed to be missing the point?

 

[Sentinel]

I genuinely do not see the benefit of the Leamside line at all.

I actually challenged one of the vocal pro-leamside line politicians about this privately and they couldn't tell me how many new homes were planned on the line of the route

So, I fail to see where the passengers would come from for the two planned Washington Metro stations (Follingsby may get some workers using it) and you've already highlighted the other issues.

Increases capacity. ECML through Durham limited to 6tph at present.

 

[21C101]

View attachment 144162

Its also got a devolved assembly to fund it if they want that. I'm sure Drakeford is plotting a ULEZ and 10mph speed limit plan that will raise the money as we speak.

 

[Deepgreen]

View attachment 144162

That's hilarious! The 'North' including Devon and Somerset, and being concentrated in the Midlands. Sums up very neatly how this 'government' views anything beyond London.

 

[21C101]

Well given Euston HS is being reduced to six platforms they wont have the capacity anyhow. This is just now an expensive WCML capacity relief project surely.

Is that actually going to be the case. I thought it was Old Oak that had six?

 

[Sentinel]

Presumably, Sunak wanted some good news alongside the cancellation of HS2 phase 2, so brought in Andrew Gilligan and his crayon.

More likely that Network Rall would have breached confidentiality.
in any event, the customer decides the spec as to what they want.

I have to say I'm baffled from a political stand-point. It feels as though the PM announcing the cancellation of the Manchester section of HS2 in a speech in Manchester may turn out to be one of the most memorable of political own goals of our time.

 

[MontyP]

The most interesting part of the announcement, HS2 wise was that they will still be running trains to Leeds via HS2 together with the announcement that Sheffield to Leeds will be juiced; so it looks like Euston to Leeds via Trent is planned

Where does it say that? How is this even feasible, there is no planned connection from HS1 to any line heading in a NE direction. The line to EM Parkway was scrapped in the announcement today.

 

[Sentinel]

Not if you live in the north and would have had a worse train service to London if HS2 Phase 2 did go ahead.
Also there are people in places such as Leek who will now get a train service and a train connection via Stoke to London.
Previously this was not on a definite project list. May be an own goal in your view, but it doesn’t matter when the team are winning 10-1

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes the business case for it is probably lower than Cardiff to Swansea.

bet tfw not impressed. Money would have been better spent finishing the GWML electrification to Oxford, Bristol TM and Swansea and get Swindon-Gloucester -Severn Tunnel Junction done

Agree totally - the last study on wiring to Holyhead was 1996 , - inconclusive as to whether there was a business case. So shelved.

 

[Austriantrain]

Not really NR have managed to turn TRU into an 11B project

Just read today that the Brescia - Padova (about 160 km) new-built HSL (Not difficult topographically, but in a very densely settled region) is costed at 10 bn €. The Austrian Koralmbahn, 130 km of newly built railway including a 30 km tunnel, but through much less densely settled terrain, is supposed to cost 6 bn €.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Personally I dont think this is an altogether bad decision.
...
The most interesting part of the announcement, HS2 wise was that they will still be running trains to Leeds via HS2 together with the announcement that Sheffield to Leeds will be juiced; so it looks like Euston to Leeds via Trent is planned

No they won't.
The new plan is to extend MML St Pancras-Nottingham trains via Newark and the ECML to Leeds.
There will be no HS2 route to East Midlands Parkway, so no HS2 trains to Leeds.
HS2 becomes just a WCML South relief line.

 

[156421]

What's happening to Carlisle-Whitehaven

 

[Wivenswold]

"May be an own goal in your view, but it doesn’t matter when the team are winning 10-1"
In polling terms the Tories are losing 4-2 so an own goal is precisely not what they wanted unless they're trying to lose.

 

[Dave W]

Not if you live in the north and would have had a worse train service to London if HS2 Phase 2 did go ahead.
Also there are people in places such as Leek who will now get a train service and a train connection via Stoke to London.
Previously this was not on a definite project list. May be an own goal in your view, but it doesn’t matter when the team are winning 10-1

If you believe Leek is getting a train service as a result of this announcement I have got a bridge to sell you. In fact I've got several.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely many more than 18 - Charing Cross, for example?

Yes, and Fenchurch Street managed 20 peak trains per hour on 4 platforms.

But 18tph is the design capacity of HS2, so there can't be more than that coming through.

15 minute turnarounds and one platform in reserve. It's tight but it is potentially doable, although it will require compromises and more complex train planning.

 

[northwichcat]

Massive government giveaway on transport projects. Surely, Skipton-Colne must be funded!

Just a gentle reminder that reopening Leamside could be Pelaw-Washington (east) once it has been scoped.

Baildon will have improved access using the Shipley East bypass, which will do a great job of moving the traffic jams round slightly.

Before you get to reopenings - what will the cost be of allowing HS2 compatiable trains to run to Manchester? Will this require new lines to allow even the existing service level to be maintained? Local services were cutback when the Pendolinos were introduced. For instance, do we need the Manchester Airport spur to be extended to become a through line? Do we need the Denton line to be upgraded to allow regular passenger services? Do we need tram-trains changing from Network Rail to Metrolink in the Baguley area?

 

[21C101]

Appears the route of the cancelled phase 2 will not be safeguarded.

Land earmarked for the HS2 routes now scrapped will not be protected for potential future expansion of the high-speed railway, the Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed.

‘Ludicrous’ decision not to protect land on axed HS2 routes

Railway consultant William Barter described the decision as ‘ludicrous’ and an act of ‘spite’.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just read today that the Brescia - Padova (about 160 km) new-built HSL (Not difficult topographically, but in a very densely settled region) is costed at 10 bn €. The Austrian Koralmbahn, 130 km of newly built railway including a 30 km tunnel, but through much less densely settled terrain, is supposed to cost 6 bn €.

Koralm Tunnel is in hard rock much more expensive to tunnel through tham Chiltern chalk and still comes out at £5B. TRU has one existing tunnel that needs electrifying, 4km of new formation and putting back two tracks on existing formation and comes to 11B. Its ludicrous whichever way you try and cut it and it infuriates me there is no challenge anymore. Politicians like the big sums for PR stunts then realise the error of their ways when it all comes unstuck. In this case interest rates rising has been the undoing of the largesse that has been allowed to run riot in NR over the last decade.