Connect Herts - new limited stop 7xx services from 19.11.23

[A0]

It used to when I lived there. Perhaps people can't afford to get there by taxi.

But what do you consider "sufficient" demand ? 5 people on a 40 seat single deck really isn't - that's not even going to come close to covering the cost of the diesel.

And if people can afford to go out and spend £ 4 a pint / £ 10 on a bottle of wine, they can probably afford the £ 20 taxi home as well.

 

[alholmes]

And the Hitchin - Letchworth buses 'miss' the station because they head out of town on Bancroft and Nightingale Road - to then serve the station would mean an awkward dog leg which would probably add 5 mins to the journey time and not pick up many people. The bus stops on Nightingale Road are 2 mins walk from Hitchin station.

This is a very good summary of the situation for Hitchin. Just one correction: the Hitchin - Letchworth buses do now serve the railway station, and have done for quite a few years. They travel via Walsworth Road, no longer via Nightingale Road.

My observations of buses in Hitchin area, written from the perspective of someone who was born and grew up there in the 70s and 80s, and who now returns to visit family regularly:
- The Hitchin - Letchworth buses (routes 97 / 98) are primarily used only by over-65 concessionary pass holders; college students to/from North Hers College, and presumably school students to from the various Hitchin secondary schools at the appropriate times of days. Very little demand in evenings and Sundays. Even on Saturday afternoon the service is reduced from mid-afternoon.
- My use of them in the 80s was to/from school only. Nights out in Hitchin, which in those days had loads of good pubs, were always by getting a lift into town from parents or friends, then taxi home. Bus was never a consideration, even though there was an evening service then.
- I suspect car-ownership % is relatively high across North Herts, including Hitchin, albeit there will be variations within each town. So again, demand from buses from many households in non-existent. Even my 82-year old mother still drives regularly to the town centres of Hitchin & Letchworth, probably only uses the buses once or twice a year.

Certainly no demand for a regular Luton-Hitchin-Letchworth-Royston-Cambridge service, that I can see.

 

[A0]

This is a very good summary of the situation for Hitchin. Just one correction: the Hitchin - Letchworth buses do now serve the railway station, and have done for quite a few years. They travel via Walsworth Road, no longer via Nightingale Road.

My observations of buses in Hitchin area, written from the perspective of someone who was born and grew up there in the 70s and 80s, and who now returns to visit family regularly:
- The Hitchin - Letchworth buses (routes 97 / 98) are primarily used only by over-65 concessionary pass holders; college students to/from North Hers College, and presumably school students to from the various Hitchin secondary schools at the appropriate times of days. Very little demand in evenings and Sundays. Even on Saturday afternoon the service is reduced from mid-afternoon.
- My use of them in the 80s was to/from school only. Nights out in Hitchin, which in those days had loads of good pubs, were always by getting a lift into town from parents or friends, then taxi home. Bus was never a consideration, even though there was an evening service then.
- I suspect car-ownership % is relatively high across North Herts, including Hitchin, albeit there will be variations within each town. So again, demand from buses from many households in non-existent. Even my 82-year old mother still drives regularly to the town centres of Hitchin & Letchworth, probably only uses the buses once or twice a year.

Certainly no demand for a regular Luton-Hitchin-Letchworth-Royston-Cambridge service, that I can see.

I hadn't realised they'd diverted them away from Nightingale Road - but makes sense I guess.

On the secondaries you'd have more heading to Letchworth from Hitchin - for a number of areas in Hitchin the closest secondaries are in Letchworth e.g. Highfield.

The link between Luton and Letchworth / Baldock disappeared when the 100/101 between Stevenage and Luton were built up and the 92-99 routes heading to Letchworth, Baldock, Stotfold etc were curtailed at Hitchin. It probably made these routes more reliable as they weren't at risk of being delayed when arriving at Hitchin.

Connect Herts new route 906 starts before all the others at the end of the month, timetable is live on arriva website and the new map has the 725 already on it.

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Now what is *very* interesting on that is the second timing point is 'Lemsford Corner' - so that suggests they're heading out of Welwyn Garden City probably via Valley Road and over Ayot Hill - which is mad - because there is precisely *no* demand for a bus along there - apart from 2 pubs and Ayot Green (about 12 houses) there's nothing, nada, zlich to serve between Lemsford Corner and Welwyn Village. Stagecoach United Counties diverted the 314 away from that way about 30 years ago. I really think Herts CC are busy creating solutions which are looking for problems with their BSIP spending.

 

[MedwayValiant]

That is indeed interesting. Valley Road was served by the 366 before it disappeared and hasn't had a regular service since. But it's the leafy side of town, it's only a short walk from the more frequent 302 route, and it's within walking distance of the town centre anyway. So providing a service for Valley Road seems unlikely to the objective.

As you say, there's nothing much between Lemsford Corner and Welwyn Village. Neither of the two pubs by Ayot Green is a "drinkers pub" any more; they're both gastro establishments for BMW drivers these days.

The only thing I can think of is that this routing brings you into Welwyn Village by what I know as Godfrey Davis at the junction with London Road. That part of Welwyn is currently served by the 301, but getting there requires a tortuous detour via several roundabouts. Is it perhaps the intention that the new route together with the 314/315 will become the only service for the south end of Welwyn, and the 301 will save itself a few minutes by running along the old 733 routing past the Civic Centre and the White Hart. It would make some sort of sense, but if it were rhe idea you'd expect Arriva to have announced a rerouting of the 301 - which it hasn't.

 

[A0]

The only thing I can think of is that this routing brings you into Welwyn Village by what I know as Godfrey Davis at the junction with London Road. That part of Welwyn is currently served by the 301, but getting there requires a tortuous detour via several roundabouts. Is it perhaps the intention that the new route together with the 314/315 will become the only service for the south end of Welwyn, and the 301 will save itself a few minutes by running along the old 733 routing past the Civic Centre and the White Hart. It would make some sort of sense, but if it were rhe idea you'd expect Arriva to have announced a rerouting of the 301 - which it hasn't.

Bit in bold - only 1 more roundabout than anything routed along Hertford Road past the Civic Centre would have to navigate if heading south to be precise - if heading north it's 2 but that's only because Hertford Road runs straight through from the roundabout on the east side of the A1 which anything heading north avoids. I'd hardly call it a "torturous detour" - if anything it means the residential area south of Welwyn village either side of London Road is served, whereas leaving via Hertford Road means that area goes unserved. Much of the layout around there dates back to the building of the Welwyn bypass in 1927 and then the building of the A1M in the late 1960s.

 

[RT4038]

For the benefit of people who don't know the area - there are only two of those where you could contend the station isn't in the town centre - Hitchin and St Albans - but even then the dynamics are a bit different.

We'll deal with Hitchin first - part of the reason the buses run where they do is historic. The London Transport (later London Country) buses terminated in Hitchin town centre at St Mary's Square - they didn't have running rights onto Letchworth from Hitchin which is the direction you'd take if you were heading to Hitchin station - another factor which would have deterred London Transport from heading to Letchworth even if they did have running rights is right outside Hitchin station is a low bridge 13' 3" - whilst LT could squeeze their RMs / RMCs under Wymondley bridge between Stevenage and Hitchin (15' 6") there would have been a lot of open top RMs / RMCs / RTs if they'd tried to head to Letchworth - London Country's Atlanteans (AN) were too tall for Wymondley bridge, so the only time ANs made it to Hitchin is if they were sent on the village route via Todds Green and Titmore Green.

If you head south down the railway line from Hitchin, you have Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield. Historically all bar Welwyn North (which is miles away from Welwyn Village) had direct buses to Hitchin (300 / 303), even now, both Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City do. If you live in Stevenage in somewhere like Chells, Poplars or Symonds Green, your bus will take you to Stevenage bus station - if you're wanting to go to Hitchin for shopping you may just as well wait at the bus station for the onward bus, which will take you to Hitchin town centre - probably quicker and easier than walking to Stevenage station and then having the walk at the other end.

Whilst the fact that Hitchin was at the outer boundary of the former London Transport Country area, this was not really an inhibiting factor. London Transport buses did go to Hitchin Station (the local service 383 from Oakfield Estate to Purwell Lane Est./Weston), and the Stevenage Town Services 800/1 from Bandley Hill and Bedwell ran there during Mon-Fri peaks and odd Sat. journeys; however these were more for workers in the Industrial businesses in the vicinity rather than for train connections. The mainstream routes from Stevenage (and south) didn't - principally because any extension would have cost an additional vehicle and crews into the cycle for nowhere near enough compensating revenue by extra generated train connecting passengers. Although Hitchin was a more important station than Stevenage in those days (Stevenage Station being located much further North [by the Old Town] than it is now) but who, aside from a trickle, would have wanted to connect with a north or eastbound train? Any passengers going from Stevenage to Letchworth would have travelled there directly on a no. 384/384B bus. There was simply no need for any LT bus service from the south to be extended from Hitchin via the Station to Letchworth, quite apart from the low bridge problem.

 

[Failed Unit]

I hadn't realised they'd diverted them away from Nightingale Road - but makes sense I guess.

On the secondaries you'd have more heading to Letchworth from Hitchin - for a number of areas in Hitchin the closest secondaries are in Letchworth e.g. Highfield.

The link between Luton and Letchworth / Baldock disappeared when the 100/101 between Stevenage and Luton were built up and the 92-99 routes heading to Letchworth, Baldock, Stotfold etc were curtailed at Hitchin. It probably made these routes more reliable as they weren't at risk of being delayed when arriving at Hitchin.



Now what is *very* interesting on that is the second timing point is 'Lemsford Corner' - so that suggests they're heading out of Welwyn Garden City probably via Valley Road and over Ayot Hill - which is mad - because there is precisely *no* demand for a bus along there - apart from 2 pubs and Ayot Green (about 12 houses) there's nothing, nada, zlich to serve between Lemsford Corner and Welwyn Village. Stagecoach United Counties diverted the 314 away from that way about 30 years ago. I really think Herts CC are busy creating solutions which are looking for problems with their BSIP spending.

I wonder if the 725 will go that way to make it every half-hour. It is possible but unlike the 301 (which is also subject to a timetable change) will get a new route through Welwyn.

I run down Lemsford road a lot, even when the 366 was running it was never well used. As others say very close to walking to town but appreciate that not every can walk.The 906 I can’t see giving much. The 725 if it goes that way will give that area of Welwyn Garden City better connections to the hospitals. But the 366 didn’t have lots of people going from the QE hospital beyond the town anyway. I don’t recall hearing about a massive campaign to restore buses to Valley Road Bus services. The 366 did, but just the journey that is still running (which is really a school bus)

 

[Prestige15]

I have to say, why ?

None of those make any sense whatsoever.

And routes into TFLs area have been curtailed e.g. 310 which used to run into Enfield, the bus between Watford & Uxbridge has been cancelled, the 84 has been split at Potters Bar etc.



Bit in bold - on the Welwyn - St Albans corridor the 724 has departures from Harlow between 01.10 and 20.30 and from Heathrow between 05.10 and 00.25 and the 301 has departures from Welwyn Gdn City between 05.35 and 22.45 and from St Albans between 06.25 and 23.40. Can I ask how much "earlier" and "later" you have in mind ?




See Uno X10 which broadly does this i.e Luton - Hatfield limited stop, except not serving Welwyn Gdn City.......

If I had my way I would extend the 721 to as far as High Wycombe, that would provide good connection between the Chilterns, Herts and Luton airport, avoiding the need to use the busy and congested Heathrow. It's also Ideal use to link with Bovingdon Market.

Making the 321 (X321) a limited stopper = Faster Journey times

A more regular Luton - Cambridge; Cambridge is a popular destinations for uni and provide a link to Luton Airport and bear in mind Luton Airport itself is getting busier over the years and now not far on overtaking Stansted Airport when it comes to passengers numbers.

 

[Deerfold]

If I had my way I would extend the 721 to as far as High Wycombe, that would provide good connection between the Chilterns, Herts and Luton airport, avoiding the need to use the busy and congested Heathrow. It's also Ideal use to link with Bovingdon Market.

Making the 321 (X321) a limited stopper = Faster Journey times

A more regular Luton - Cambridge; Cambridge is a popular destinations for uni and provide a link to Luton Airport and bear in mind Luton Airport itself is getting busier over the years and now not far on overtaking Stansted Airport when it comes to passengers numbers.

National Express start 6 trips a day Heathrow - Luton Airport - Cambridge - Peterborough next week.

788 - Peterborough - Heathrow Airport (T5)

National Express

bustimes.org

 

[A0]

If I had my way I would extend the 721 to as far as High Wycombe, that would provide good connection between the Chilterns, Herts and Luton airport, avoiding the need to use the busy and congested Heathrow. It's also Ideal use to link with Bovingdon Market.

Making the 321 (X321) a limited stopper = Faster Journey times

A more regular Luton - Cambridge; Cambridge is a popular destinations for uni and provide a link to Luton Airport and bear in mind Luton Airport itself is getting busier over the years and now not far on overtaking Stansted Airport when it comes to passengers numbers.

But is there a demand to travel between:

the Chilterns, Herts and Luton airport

If you live in High Wycombe, how much do you care about access to Luton (even considering the airport) ? Gatwick's not much further (55 miles vs 40 miles) - and a bus from Wycombe to Luton will easily take 2 hours - the current Carousel 1 takes about 90 mins to get from High Wycombe to Hemel Hempstead - you might trim 10 mins off that by running limited stop, but you're not suddenly going to make it a sub 1 hour journey. And from Hemel to Luton even the National Express 707 which uses the M1 is timed for 30 minutes most of the day - I can't see Herts County Council supporting a route which serves *nowhere* between Luton and Hemel Hempstead.

Luton - Cambridge - even with the University - has limited demand and University travel demands are *highly* seasonal, they're not day in day out, week in week out except within the town / city of the university.

Stanstead and Luton appeal to different markets - if you live in Suffolk, Essex or Norfolk you'll consider a Stanstead flight and possibly not a Luton one - equally in Milton Keynes, you'll consider a Luton or Birmingham flight, but less likely to consider a Stanstead one - at least on comparable routes.

As for the X321 option - between Luton, Harpenden and St Albans there is a *faster* journey option via Thameslink. Even Luton - Watford can be done more quickly by taking Thameslink to Elstree and taking the 306 (which runs every 30 mins 12 hours a day) and takes 30 mins from Elstree to Watford.

 

[Magdalia]

Luton - Cambridge - even with the University - has limited demand and University travel demands are *highly* seasonal, they're not day in day out, week in week out except within the town / city of the university.

Traffic to and from Cambridge includes a lot of work/business, and regional hospitals. They don't stop at the end of term, and they are growing rapidly. Luton will want to be part of that, though getting the train from Hitchin is the obvious way to do it.

Stanstead and Luton appeal to different markets - if you live in Suffolk, Essex or Norfolk you'll consider a Stanstead flight and possibly not a Luton one - equally in Milton Keynes, you'll consider a Luton or Birmingham flight, but less likely to consider a Stanstead one - at least on comparable routes.

Journeys are between two points. Some places only have flights from Luton, others only only have flights from Stansted. If you live in Suffolk, and your destination only has flights from Luton, then you will go to Luton. If you live in Milton Keynes, and your destination only has flights from Stansted, then you will go to Stansted.

 

[philjo]

And the Hitchin - Letchworth buses 'miss' the station because they head out of town on Bancroft and Nightingale Road - to then serve the station would mean an awkward dog leg which would probably add 5 mins to the journey time and not pick up many people. The bus stops on Nightingale Road are 2 mins walk from Hitchin station.

The Letchworth buses have called at the main bus stop at Hitchin station in both directions for several years. They now go along Walsworth Road then Verulam Road and Bancroft. The main town centre bus stop is on Hermitage Road so those leaving Hitchin turn left at the end and past the Queen Mother Theatre toward the station.
The 97 Stotfold bus also now goes via the Purwell estate so this provides the service from the estate to the station.

When I used to get the bus home from School in Hitchin there were 6 buses an hour to Letchworth, 3 of which started from Luton bus station. Plus the 90/91 Ashwell services at certain times. In those days the services terminating at Hitchin went round via Fishponds Road and Brand street to the stop in Bancroft. Though I think there was only an occasional service from Letchworth to Stevenage which ran via the villages whereas the 55 is half hourly these days. I think there should be a later service back from Stevenage to Letchworth in the evening bearing in mind that it. serves Lister Hospital. We had to get an Uber last month as we had missed the last bus back (18:55) after a delay seeing the doctors whilst visiting a relative.

 

[jon0844]

I noticed the bus information signs are now showing scheduled and actual times (must have changed fairly recently), which makes it a bit clearer as to what is going on. They still need to show when they're cancelled though.

Pretty poor text formatting still, but that seems par for the course as if nobody has a way of previewing what the displays will look like before letting the software out into the wild.

 

[A0]

Traffic to and from Cambridge includes a lot of work/business, and regional hospitals. They don't stop at the end of term, and they are growing rapidly. Luton will want to be part of that, though getting the train from Hitchin is the obvious way to do it.

Luton to Cambridge is over 40 miles, similar in distance to Luton - Northampton or Luton - Reading. There isn't huge demand to travel from Luton to / from those places either.

Luton doesn't refer people to Cambridge hospitals - it's too far, especially when London is closer and quick.

Journeys are between two points. Some places only have flights from Luton, others only only have flights from Stansted. If you live in Suffolk, and your destination only has flights from Luton, then you will go to Luton. If you live in Milton Keynes, and your destination only has flights from Stansted, then you will go to Stansted.

All you've done is restate my point.

The Letchworth buses have called at the main bus stop at Hitchin station in both directions for several years. They now go along Walsworth Road then Verulam Road and Bancroft. The main town centre bus stop is on Hermitage Road so those leaving Hitchin turn left at the end and past the Queen Mother Theatre toward the station.
The 97 Stotfold bus also now goes via the Purwell estate so this provides the service from the estate to the station.

Was covered in post #62 by @alholmes

 

[Deerfold]

The Letchworth buses have called at the main bus stop at Hitchin station in both directions for several years. They now go along Walsworth Road then Verulam Road and Bancroft. The main town centre bus stop is on Hermitage Road so those leaving Hitchin turn left at the end and past the Queen Mother Theatre toward the station.
The 97 Stotfold bus also now goes via the Purwell estate so this provides the service from the estate to the station.

When I used to get the bus home from School in Hitchin there were 6 buses an hour to Letchworth, 3 of which started from Luton bus station. Plus the 90/91 Ashwell services at certain times. In those days the services terminating at Hitchin went round via Fishponds Road and Brand street to the stop in Bancroft. Though I think there was only an occasional service from Letchworth to Stevenage which ran via the villages whereas the 55 is half hourly these days. I think there should be a later service back from Stevenage to Letchworth in the evening bearing in mind that it. serves Lister Hospital. We had to get an Uber last month as we had missed the last bus back (18:55) after a delay seeing the doctors whilst visiting a relative.

When I left Hitchin 2007 there were 6 buses an hour Hitchin to Letchworth and various places beyond (every 20-30 minutes evenings until around 2300 and Sundays. None came from Luton by this stage (a couple of years earlier there were still a handful a day). During the day they were half hourly to Stotfold, Baldock and Letchworth Estates. The 55 from Stevenage to the Grange Estate was every 20 minutes, every 30 minutes after about 1830 until around 2300.

 

[Magdalia]

Luton to Cambridge is over 40 miles, similar in distance to Luton - Northampton or Luton - Reading. There isn't huge demand to travel from Luton to / from those places either.

Luton is only 35 miles from Cambridge, it is nearer to Cambridge than, for example, Peterborough or Kings Lynn.

The Cambridge economy is expanding rapidly, faster than local housebuilding, so its economic hinterland is expanding too.

 

[A0]

Luton is only 35 miles from Cambridge, it is nearer to Cambridge than, for example, Peterborough or Kings Lynn.

The Cambridge economy is expanding rapidly, faster than local housebuilding, so its economic hinterland is expanding too.

Depends where you start - according to Google Maps, Luton & Dunstable Hospital - Cambridge station is 43-45 miles depending on route. I don't know how you're making it 35 miles unless you're only looking at the western boundary of Cambridge and eastern boundary of Luton, which isn't representative.

Either way, Cambridge doesn't have a "pull" from Luton, not when Luton is much closer to and with better transport links to both London and Milton Keynes. And people aren't going to move to Luton to commute to Cambridge - on cost grounds alone that makes no sense, not when places like March are much cheaper and closer than Luton or places like Newmarket, Bury St Edmunds or St Neots are on a par with Luton and are much nicer places to live.

And as Deerfold has pointed out National Express are starting a service which links Luton and Cambridge, though judging by the timetable, they aren't expecting it to attract any number of commuters - quite the opposite.

 

[SteveHFC]

Luton doesn't refer people to Cambridge hospitals - it's too far, especially when London is closer and quick.

Yes they do. As a Luton resident, I know of a number of people to have been referred to Addenbrookes and Papworth Hospitals.

 

[A0]

Yes they do. As a Luton resident, I know of a number of people to have been referred to Addenbrookes and Papworth Hospitals.

It will depend on the nature of an ailment - Papworth is a heart centre, but so is Harefield which is closer. It won't be a "number" of people, it will be relatively few with specific ailments. And certainly not indicative of demand for a frequent bus link between Luton and Cambridge. For cancer treatment, it's unlikely to be a referral to Cambridge, and more likely to one of the London hospitals such as Mount Vernon.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes they do. As a Luton resident, I know of a number of people to have been referred to Addenbrookes and Papworth Hospitals.

I'm a resident of Cornwall and have a friend/neighbour who takes his daughter for six-monthly check-ups at Papworth, and has done for years. It is a world-renowned specialist hospital for the whole of the country that happens to be in Cambridge.

 

[A0]

I'm a resident of Cornwall and have a friend/neighbour who takes his daughter for six-monthly check-ups at Papworth, and has done for years. It is a world-renowned specialist hospital for the whole of the country that happens to be in Cambridge.

And equally that doesn't mean there's somehow a demand for a frequent bus link from Cornwall to Cambridge either.... (though I don't think you're suggesting that).

The point with specialist hospitals (for the benefit of other posters) is that people will usually go there a few times a year (not week in week out) and the demand will be spread from across the country - not concentrated in a town 40 miles away from the hospital.

 

[MedwayValiant]

While there may be a limited market for travel between Luton and Cambridge, shorten that to Hitchin and Cambridge and it might start to look rather different.

Hitchin sort of thinks it's in East Anglia, Letchworth doesn't really but Baldock definitely does, and in Royston you don't even need to ask the question. Cambridge, not London, is "our city". For sure, there's a decent train service between Hitchin and Cambridge - but while Letchworth station is in the town centre, those of Hitchin, Baldock, Royston, and Cambridge aren't.

You'd need to get the routing right. Leave Letchworth via Letchworth Gate so that you can enter Baldock via Tesco (this may sound silly to people who have never been to Baldock, but Tesco is Baldock's main tourist attraction; it's a listed building, and it was the biggest Tesco in the world when it opened in 1983). And then, just maybe, run from Royston to Cambridge via Duxford and the M11 rather than Melbourn. That's the way the train doesn't go, it enables you to serve the Imperial War Museum, and although it's more miles it doesn't take much longer.

 

[Mwanesh]

The 797 had been in decline for years - you've got it a little wrong - Uno originally took it over and ran it as the 797 for a few months as this post on another thread shows https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-buses-including-greenline.195210/page-42#post-5973980

I thought the 712 was Arriva's attempt to run a St Albans - London service, but again it didn't last long. And the replacement for the 797 was the 614 which only went as far as Queensbury - where the 797 continued into Central London ?


Setting aside the "disruption" occasions, I'm not sure there has ever been much demand for travel from Stevenage - St Albans. In fact AIUI, if you go back to the early 1980s there wasn't even a direct bus between St Albans and Steveange - that only changed when London Country re-cast some Green Line services in the early 1980s and replaced the Hitchin - London Victoria 732 with the Hitchin - Heathrow (and Reading at one point) 733.

The 733 wasn't overly successful and wasn't registered as commercial by London Country, but Herts County Council made it a contract which was run initally by Armchair of Brentford and then later having been truncated to Watford, by Luton & District.

The current "group" of services which linked Stevenage with St Albans came into being in the late 1980s when London Country recast the 300/303 Hitchin - Potters Bar and 340/341 Welwyn GC - Hatfield - St Albans - Hemel Hempstead routes. The 300/303 were diverted at Hatfield to then head onto St Albans and Hemel replacing the 340/341 - obviously there have been some changes since then, but the basic pattern remains. The Hatfield - Potters Bar section became a Herts County Council contract route. So the fact there is a Stevange - St Albans - Hemel route only came into being out of operational convenience - not really as a result of passenger demand.

The 797 was in decline I agree. I drove it for a while around 2009 you hardy had any passengers in the afternoon. The 712 could not compete against the train.

 

[Magdalia]

Depends where you start - according to Google Maps, Luton & Dunstable Hospital - Cambridge station is 43-45 miles depending on route. I don't know how you're making it 35 miles unless you're only looking at the western boundary of Cambridge and eastern boundary of Luton, which isn't representative.

Centre to centre: 26 miles Cambridge-Hitchin and another 9 miles to Luton.

Either way, Cambridge doesn't have a "pull" from Luton

Cambridge now has a "pull" from anywhere within commuting distance. And it is important to remember that not everyone is single. Couples, with one working in London and the other in Cambridge, are becoming increasingly common: for them locating somewhere about halfway between is the obvious solution, and of those places, Luton is probably the cheapest.

 

[greenline712]

My neighbour (outer Watford) works in Cambridge, but only commutes two/three days per week . . . he wouldn't use a coach if there was one!!

I've been rummaging around the Connect Herts timetables, now that they are available on the Arriva website, and I think I'm seeing a pattern emerging:

A general principle of (on weekdays) of a minimum of 4 BPH on strategic corridors . . . so St Albans radiating out to Luton; Hemel Hempstead; Watford; Hatfield (6 BPH) . . . between Watford and Hemel Hempstead (6 BPH) via two routes; Watford and Rickmansworth; Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City. Trying to come up with similar frequencies in the East of the County might be difficult (apart from Hertford and Waltham Cross, already 4 BPH), as there simply isn't the necessary population density available to sustain such freqencies.

A laudable overall approach . . . although 4 BPH between St Albans and Hemel Hempstead is somewhat overkill IMHO, and reducing to 2 BPH on Saturdays between Luton and St Albans seems a big drop (half the weekday service level). The devil will be in the operations . . . trying to co-ordinate departures into regular headways with routes appearing from different directions will be challenging, although Route 721 might have tried to do this with apparent long dwell times in St Albans, which might in itself lead to more congestion with buses unable to access stops cleanly.

I do understand the issue with buses to Hemel Hempstead stopping on different sides of the road at St Peters Street . . . there's no real alternative unless 721s circumnavigate the Town Centre (more opportunities to get caught in traffic); hopefully each stop will clearly advertise the "next buses" from the opposite stop. The road junction at King Harry (St Stephens) is not ideal for long buses . . . I can see initial problems there as car drivers won't be expecting a bus 4 times an hour.

The running times on all routes seems poorly calculated, with either too much at off-peak times or not enough in peak times. I know a standard departure time across the day is attractive, but passengers are not entirely stupid, and will understand the need for buses departing at 00/15/30/15 in the AM peak; 10/25/40/55 in the daytime and 20/35/50/05 in the PM peak . . . especially if it means the bus arrives on time!! Trying to get 321 / 724 / 725 into the correct slot at St Peters Street towards Watford is going to be challenging without "recovery" time mid-route.

One assumes that the BSIP+ funding is sufficient for more than 12 months . . . it'll take until Spring 2024 for the new service pattern to settle down. We'll just have to wait and see . . .