Connecting Euston and King's Cross after HS2 completion

[Diplodicus]

Moderator note: posts 1-21 split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ive-high-speed-rail-line-the-go-ahead.200154/ and moved into this thread

I was a doubter until our holiday to Japan last year. The Shinkansen was not just impressive in operation, but it made me realise how simple it was to "pop" along from Tokyo to Kyoto or Hiroshima for a meeting and be back in time for a cuppa.

In terms of dealing with the arrivals at Euston, perhaps it's time to consider a radical rethink of surface comms by creating tram routes between Euston and Paddington (Euston Rd westbound, Pentonville Road down to Old Street passing Kings X eastbound), Waterloo (Southampton Row and the Kingway tunnel!!). Victoria (Oxford St, Park Lane and Hyde Park).

 

[Taunton]

In terms of dealing with the arrivals at Euston, perhaps it's time to consider a radical rethink of surface comms by creating tram routes between Euston and Paddington

It's extraordinary how 150 years after the Circle Line was built, nobody has ever got round to inserting a proper, integrated Euston station pair of platforms where it passes right in front of the station - just like what was done at Kings Cross in 1939. Not even out of the £100 billion.

 

[30907]

It's extraordinary how 150 years after the Circle Line was built, nobody has ever got round to inserting a proper, integrated Euston station pair of platforms where it passes right in front of the station - just like what was done at Kings Cross in 1939. Not even out of the £100 billion.

Decent connections there are part of the package, though without moving the platforms.

 

[camflyer]

It's extraordinary how 150 years after the Circle Line was built, nobody has ever got round to inserting a proper, integrated Euston station pair of platforms where it passes right in front of the station - just like what was done at Kings Cross in 1939. Not even out of the £100 billion.

The redevelopment of Euston as part of HS2 include direct access to Euston Square for the Circle line. It could be that Euston and Euston Sq effectively become one Tube station.

 

[hwl]

It's extraordinary how 150 years after the Circle Line was built, nobody has ever got round to inserting a proper, integrated Euston station pair of platforms where it passes right in front of the station - just like what was done at Kings Cross in 1939. Not even out of the £100 billion.

Just the small matter of a very very large sewer in the way...

Direct access to Euston Square is part of the project

 

[Aictos]

The redevelopment of Euston as part of HS2 include direct access to Euston Square for the Circle line. It could be that Euston and Euston Sq effectively become one Tube station.

If they become one station effectively then would they rename the station to just Euston?

Just makes it simple as no need to retain both names.

 

[edwin_m]

If they become one station effectively then would they rename the station to just Euston?

Just makes it simple as no need to retain both names.

Seems sensible, especially as if Crossrail 2 happens Kings Cross St Pancras will also be part of the same complex - having four different names is starting to get a bit "chateletien".

 

[Ianno87]

Seems sensible, especially as if Crossrail 2 happens Kings Cross St Pancras will also be part of the same complex - having four different names is starting to get a bit "chateletien".

To avoid the argument, just call it 'Châtelet-les-Halles des Anglais'

 

[camflyer]

Seems sensible, especially as if Crossrail 2 happens Kings Cross St Pancras will also be part of the same complex - having four different names is starting to get a bit "chateletien".

That's right. Under Crossrail 2, Euston-St Pancras-Kings Cross would become one mega-station with three different mainline "terminals" similar to an airport, lots of connections to the Tube network as well as CR2

 

[Ianno87]

That's right. Under Crossrail 2, Euston-St Pancras-Kings Cross would become one mega-station with three different mainline "terminals" similar to an airport, lots of connections to the Tube network as well as CR2

Which might help allay the belief many seem to have the Euston and St Pancras are a 15 mile long walk apart and in practice are de-facto near enough the same station...

 

[6Gman]

Which might help allay the belief many seem to have the Euston and St Pancras are a 15 mile long walk apart and in practice are de-facto near enough the same station...

Well, apart from a fire station, several office buildings, pubs and the entire British Library ...

(Don't get me wrong; the walk between them never bothers me but hardly "the same station".)

 

[camflyer]

Well, apart from a fire station, several office buildings, pubs and the entire British Library ...

(Don't get me wrong; the walk between them never bothers me but hardly "the same station".)

Well, it's like the walk between terminal 2 and 3 at Heathrow when they are the same airport.

Once (if ever) Crossrail 2 arrives then all three mainline stations will be linked underground and there are various proposals for people movers or moving walkways to speed up the connections between them. The one complication is that the British Library and the Crick Institute both have extensive basement systems. That part of London is very crowded beneath ground.

Or you could continue the practice of walking between the stations and stop in one of the many pubs along the way for a drink.

 

[Meole]

Well, it's like the walk between terminal 2 and 3 at Heathrow when they are the same airport.

Once (if ever) Crossrail 2 arrives then all three mainline stations will be linked underground and there are various proposals for people movers or moving walkways to speed up the connections between them. The one complication is that the British Library and the Crick Institute both have extensive basement systems. That part of London is very crowded beneath ground.

Or you could continue the practice of walking between the stations and stop in one of the many pubs along the way for a drink.

Over half mile walk between the stations, long enough to get wet.

 

[camflyer]

Over half mile walk between the stations, long enough to get wet.

That's what the pubs are there for

Once took me over three hours to get from KX to Euston.

 

[miami]

Or you could continue the practice of walking between the stations and stop in one of the many pubs along the way for a drink.

Over half mile walk between the stations, long enough to get wet.

I detect the same point is being made


People walk long distances at airports, but they are not toting large baggage (which is checked shortly after getting out the taxi), and the floor is smooth, which works well for small wheels on hand luggage.

Neither of those are true for transfers from Euston to St Pancras. A indoor, tiled, path, ideally with travelators, could work, but it's still a fair old yomp - like going from T5a to t5b or even t5c at Heathrow. I like the walk, but that's because it's usually very quiet down there. There's travelators in one direction too.

A T5esque people mover and a walk tunnel would be the ideal combination, but the space undeground is problematic. How about a skywalk like at Manchester airport, running above Euston Road?

 

[The Ham]

That's what the pubs are there for

Once took me over three hours to get from KX to Euston.

...and people wonder why others think it's a long way between the two stations!

 

[duffield]

A travellator would make the 0.5 miles/800 metres walk seem like 0.25 miles/400 metres - which is the length of the longest HS2 trains so that makes it seem not too far...

 

[AM9]

A travellator would make the 0.5 miles/800 metres walk seem like 0.25 miles/400 metres - which is the length of the longest HS2 trains so that makes it seem not too far...

I would imagine that if a demand was there, a regular battery free* shuttle bus service would be established between the Euston and St Pancras/KingsCross, - certainly until a permanent fixed link could be built.
* It might be free to passengers possessing transfer tickets with a nominal charge for others.

 

[MarkyT]

I would imagine that if a demand was there, a regular battery free* shuttle bus service would be established between the Euston and St Pancras/KingsCross, - certainly until a permanent fixed link could be built.
* It might be free to passengers possessing transfer tickets with a nominal charge for others.

Probably still quicker to walk seeing as you'd have to wait for it, then it would no doubt take a circuitous route and get stuck many times in traffic and at junctions, etc. Some kind of autonomous 'pod' solution taking a direct largely dedicated route avoiding other traffic and alongside a walking option would be ideal to cover most bases.

 

[duffield]

Probably still quicker to walk seeing as you'd have to wait for it, then it would no doubt take a circuitous route and get stuck many times in traffic and at junctions, etc. Some kind of autonomous 'pod' solution taking a direct largely dedicated route avoiding other traffic and alongside a walking option would be ideal to cover most bases.

If you want capacity, a travellator (like at Manchester Piccadilly), with its continuous flow, is by far the best solution. Use 'pods' or similar, which have to stop for loading/unloading and you could be waiting a *long* time at peak hours.

 

[AM9]

If you want capacity, a travellator (like at Manchester Piccadilly), with its continuous flow, is by far the best solution. Use 'pods' or similar, which have to stop for loading/unloading and you could be waiting a *long* time at peak hours.

My suggestion was that an electric bus (say 20-30 seats) could be set up at the start of HS2 services. In view of the lack of a clear travelator path through the back streets, it would enable a service of sorts to be set up fromteh beginning. Of course Crossrail 2 or any other subterranean route would be the permanent solution.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once (if ever) Crossrail 2 arrives then all three mainline stations will be linked underground and there are various proposals for people movers or moving walkways to speed up the connections between them. The one complication is that the British Library and the Crick Institute both have extensive basement systems. That part of London is very crowded beneath ground.

A trip from Euston to Kings Cross would not be all underground, unless you got on a train.The east end of the Crossrail 2 station ties in with the south end of the TL platforms (for interchange between those two lines), and pops up roughly where John Lewis is now. There is no direct link from CR2 to Kings Cross St Pancras LUL.

I would imagine that if a demand was there, a regular battery free* shuttle bus service would be established between the Euston and St Pancras/KingsCross, - certainly until a permanent fixed link could be built.
* It might be free to passengers possessing transfer tickets with a nominal charge for others.

It would be quicker to walk. Comfortably. (for 99% of the population).

If you want capacity, a travellator (like at Manchester Piccadilly), with its continuous flow, is by far the best solution. Use 'pods' or similar, which have to stop for loading/unloading and you could be waiting a *long* time at peak hours.

Trouble is, there’s no space for a travelator without going very, very deep. Deep enough that even with the travelator, it would be quicker and easier to walk at surface.

 

[camflyer]

A T5esque people mover and a walk tunnel would be the ideal combination, but the space undeground is problematic. How about a skywalk like at Manchester airport, running above Euston Road?

There was a study done into the various people mover options available to link Euston and St Pancras: https://webarchive.nationalarchives...i/highspeedrail/proposedroute/apm/pdf/apm.pdf

 

[absolutelymilk]

There's been a lot of discussion on the HS2 go-ahead announcement thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-line-the-go-ahead.200154/page-4#post-4436733 about how Euston and King's Cross should be connected after HS2 is completed, and I thought it deserved its own thread given that it will probably come up again as an issue quite a few times during the construction phase.

Should there be a free shuttle bus, travelator, autonomous pods with their own dedicated lane or some other solution?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "back way" walk away from the Euston Road is not at all unpleasant, though you'd hardly believe you could walk that way because of part of it being right through the middle of a dodgy looking (but not actually dodgy) housing estate. That could be improved considerably.

I'm neutral on other options because I always choose to walk.

 

[AM9]

In this case, passive provision will almost certainly mean leaving what space they can for the station within the land secured by the Act. Personally, I doubt it will happen.




A trip from Euston to Kings Cross would not be all underground, unless you got on a train.The east end of the Crossrail 2 station ties in with the south end of the TL platforms (for interchange between those two lines), and pops up roughly where John Lewis is now. There is no direct link from CR2 to Kings Cross St Pancras LUL.



It would be quicker to walk. Comfortably. (for 99% of the population).



Trouble is, there’s no space for a travelator without going very, very deep. Deep enough that even with the travelator, it would be quicker and easier to walk at surface.

I agree that for many it would be quicker to walk, (including me and I have done it a few times), but there are some here complaining that it would be too far for those with luggage. Maybe those saying that haven't actually walked it so maybe they should try it.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Current bus connections Euston-StP-KX are now the worst they've been for years, with 3 of the routes that used to make that connection having disappeared as a result of recent central London bus cutbacks. Even with current passenger loads at Euston, surface links to St P or KX for people with luggage are far from ideal.

 

[MarkyT]

The "back way" walk away from the Euston Road is not at all unpleasant, though you'd hardly believe you could walk that way because of part of it being right through the middle of a dodgy looking (but not actually dodgy) housing estate. That could be improved considerably.

I'm neutral on other options because I always choose to walk.

The eventual side entrances envisaged for Euston could make a big difference. Near the east side one, Drummond Crescent might be made pedestrian only, a few small buildings removed to widen Church Way (for sight lines and security), and then the path through the courtyard and arch in the Ossulstone estate block by the Somerstown Coffee House opened up more fully with the gates removed. On Ossulston St, the area opposite the arch immediate south of the Francis Crick is supposed to become a public square, through which the final part of the walk would pass. Improved lighting, signage, and few traffic conflicts would make this an attractive and welcoming walkway, and from Euston's east side entrance it would be the shortest route between the terminals by far. Carts, trolleys and pods of various descriptions might be made available for transferring passengers who are less mobile or have luggage, and parts of the walk might be covered by glass-roofed canopies. The emphasis would be on encouraging people to walk if they're able; That's likely to be quickest for them, and better for them physically.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree that for many it would be quicker to walk, (including me and I have done it a few times), but there are some here complaining that it would be too far for those with luggage. Maybe those saying that haven't actually walked it so maybe they should try it.

It’s just about 700m from the Thameslink gateline at St P to the Euston concourse, with one short flight of stairs at Euston from Eversholt St. Compare to the 600m from the Thameslink gateline to the Victoria line, with 3 significant level changes (albeit with escalators), which far, far more people do every day, many with luggage.

The difference with the St P - Euston walk is that it isn’t covered or segregated.

Besides, many people would be surprised how few people are actually arriving on a train at Euston and departing St P or KX, or vice versa.

 

[camflyer]

Besides, many people would be surprised how few people are actually arriving on a train at Euston and departing St P or KX, or vice versa.

Which is precisely why the original HS1-HS2 link was scrapped. There just isn't a big market enough between Birmingham and Manchester to Paris and Brussels to justify it.