Connections at Seamer for trains to/from Bridlington

[billio]

Can anyone explain why the connections between York - Scarborough trains and the Scarborough - Bridlington trains at Seamer are often so poor ?. Waiting 40 minutes for a connection on an almost bare platform seems a very poor service. Nine minutes is the best connection, why isn't this possible throughout the day ?

 

[Boysteve]

Waiting 40 minutes for a connection on an almost bare platform seems a very poor service. Nine minutes is the best connection, why isn't this possible throughout the day ?

No-one would expect you to wait at Seamer 40 minutes, you are allowed to travel via Scarborough. As a child we did this regularly, if it against the rules then it is a rule that BR staff always ignored.
I remember the platform staff at Seamer screaming in the old days whenever there actually was a 9 minute connection or similar; "CHANGE FOR YORK, LEEDS, MANCHESTER", and then in would roar a Peak 45 with 8 MkIIs in tow, lovely!

 

[billio]

My question isn't about the state of the station at Seamer - I know I mentioned it in passing. Whether you wait at Seamer or Scarborough you still have this significant lengthening of journey times to places on the coast from Seamer to Bridlington. That's what strikes me as something to be avoided as it must deter travellers by train to these places.

 

[blackfive460]

To be honest, I'd rather have a 40 minute connection rather than 10.
I used to travel approx once a month to Filey from Leeds and I can recall one year when I only reached my destination by train on two occasions, the other journeys involved a visit to the Station Manager's office at Scarborough for a taxi.
TPX was often just late enough for us to roll in on one side at Seamer with the Hull train sitting in the opposite platform, doors closing and as our doors opened, off it went with two hours to wait for the next one.
Perhaps matters will improve when the Scarborough - Brid - Hull service goes hourly...

 

[Boysteve]

The situation exists now because of the irregular service patter on the coast line. Generally every 1.5 hours but with some 2 hour gaps. With 1.5 hours gaps and an hourly TPEx you will get a 10 minutes connection followed by 40 minutes connection. TPEx are quite rightly not willing to adjust their clockface hourly pattern for the whim on Northern's coastal service.

Perhaps matters will improve when the Scarborough - Brid - Hull service goes hourly...

Exactly, and York - Scarborough goes to 2 per hour also.

 

[billio]

I hope these changes make things better in the future and then I will be much more likely to use this train service, but I think it is a bad reflection on the UK rail network that it is incapable of providing a service with good connections. It must lose the railway some business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope these changes make things better in the future and then I will be much more likely to use this train service, but I think it is a bad reflection on the UK rail network that it is incapable of providing a service with good connections. It must lose the railway some business.

Good connections are well-used - witness the at least 50 people who get off the 1816 off Euston at Leighton Buzzard to change for Bletchley. This connection is very reliable as not to hold it causes significant delay to the 1816 itself, and if it isn't (or in the likely event of the SN being cancelled or turned short) there's the 1805ish off Euston 5 minutes behind. It also can't be anything other than same-platform without completely screwing up the WCML IC timetable by stopping one of them on the down fast.

So while people don't necessarily like changing when direct is an option, where it isn't a quality assured connection is something people will use.

 

[30907]

I hope these changes make things better in the future and then I will be much more likely to use this train service, but I think it is a bad reflection on the UK rail network that it is incapable of providing a service with good connections. It must lose the railway some business.

I agree that it isn't ideal and it probably loses some business.
Would you (on the present timetable)
- reduce the service to 2-hourly with 15 minute connections at Seamer but disadvantaging local travellers, day trippers from Hull to Scarborough et al?
- increase the service to hourly, with very tight connections at Seamer, but an extended stop at Brid ( annoying through passengers!), and needing an extra unit on a heavily subsidised service?

Obviously government is now prepared to pay the difference, but that's a novelty! Until now, all Northern and their predecessors have been able to do is tweak the service at privatisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that it isn't ideal and it probably loses some business. Would you (on the present timetable)
- reduce the service to 2-hourly with 15 minute connections at Seamer but disadvantaging local travellers, day trippers from Hull to Scarborough et al?
- increase the service to hourly, with very tight connections at Seamer, but an extended stop at Brid ( annoying through passengers!), and using an extra unit on a heavily subsidised service?
Obviously government is now prepared to pay the difference, but that's a novelty!

That is an interesting question. I'd certainly say an hourly clockface service is always more use than one about every 45-50 minutes, say, but two-hourly is a bit of a cut. Certainly with regard to Ormskirk-Preston I'd say the old cack-handed 1h15-ish frequency was better than 2-hourly, and this line appears to operate about the same frequency.

I think what would need researching before such a decision would be where the primary demand lies (not just who's travelling, but who could be travelling) and go with that. If it's for connectional journeys, go 2 hourly, if it's for local journeys within the line (which I suspect it probably is), leave as-is.

 

[swissrailpassion]

The May TT gives good connections at Seamer in the York direction each hour but a 1 minute connection from York! Bizarrely the last train to Hull leaves earlier than the xx26 expected and misses the connection by a few minutes. Dr Cock-up I think.
However, this is the best timetable ever seen on the route and it's transformational.


In Swissland connections are so reliable, often cross-platform and with buses and even boats waiting for you each hour taking you to all sorts of remote villages. Our rail network would be far more productive if we encouraged taktfahrplan and regular easy connections. It can be done.

 

[Mugby]

Two separate TOCs. Are you seriously suggesting they should co-operate with each other?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Swissland connections are so reliable, often cross-platform and with buses and even boats waiting for you each hour taking you to all sorts of remote villages. Our rail network would be far more productive if we encouraged taktfahrplan and regular easy connections. It can be done.

Funny you should say that, but one observation I've made is that while SBB does operate a near perfect Takt (plus peak extras in places), Postauto very often doesn't - there are some very hotch potch bus timetables out there.

Even in towns this is true - look how hotch-potch the evening service is on this one (have a click around the timetables on the site - they're all very similar) - a lot of UK services are actually rather better at staying consistent:

https://www.vmcv.ch/ligne202

 

[158756]

The May TT gives good connections at Seamer in the York direction each hour but a 1 minute connection from York! Bizarrely the last train to Hull leaves earlier than the xx26 expected and misses the connection by a few minutes. Dr Cock-up I think.
However, this is the best timetable ever seen on the route and it's transformational.

The problem is the single line. The current erratic Northern service along the coast is timed for trains to cross at Bridlington. In the hourly timetable they cross at Filey (you can't run hourly otherwise). If you cross at Filey the train from Hull reaches Seamer 20 minutes after the previous train left. That can't connect with TPE in both directions however you work it. And TPE's timetable is rather set in stone by congestion elsewhere. Northern's promised York-Scarborough might be easier to connect with whenever it starts. However users of the Scarborough -York route will want it at 30 minutes intervals with TPE, which would still leave awkward connections.

 

[PeterC]

Which is most valuable for passengers, connectons at Hull or connections at Scarborough / Seamer?

 

[billio]

For me personally, Seamer or less so Scarborough as it would take an extra 15 to 20 minutes. (Strange that Northern trains can do the Seamer - Scarborough journey in 6 minutes but TransPennine takes 8 !). I think this would apply to most stations north of Bridlington.

 

[IanXC]

The May TT gives good connections at Seamer in the York direction each hour but a 1 minute connection from York! Bizarrely the last train to Hull leaves earlier than the xx26 expected and misses the connection by a few minutes. Dr Cock-up I think.
However, this is the best timetable ever seen on the route and it's transformational.

Compare the May 2018 Northern times with the current TPE times - they're an exact 5 minute connection for most of the day... Seems to me the intention is there, but that bringing a timetable as big as this together is rather like nailing jelly to the wall.

 

[mike57]

I am a regular user of this connection. The 9-10 minute connections fails far too often in the York - Seamer - Yorkshire Coast line direction due to late running TPE trains, which then leaves a 1.5 - 2 hour wait. To be fair the Northern end of the connection towards York are pretty reliable, it is rare for the Northern service to be late. Over the last year I've only had two delay repays from Northern (One due to a trespasser on the track, the other I dont know). TPE have paid for first class travel to London for me and Mrs a couple of times over when we used to get rail vouchers, now I just bank the cheques. The single platform at Malton makes matters worse as the -04 past only has to be 8-9 minutes late to be held for the -13 past towards York, so 'a may just make it' turns into a 'going to miss' it at Malton. Also with only one station between York and Seamer there is no opportunity to make up time between York and Seamer.

 

[yorkguy]

That single platform at Malton will cause even more problems when the Northern services start next year. Does anyone know if there are any longer term plans to build another platform there?

 

[mike57]

That single platform at Malton will cause even more problems when the Northern services start next year. Does anyone know if there are any longer term plans to build another platform there?

I very much doubt it, as far as I can ascertain there was never a footbridge, the old island platform was reached by a removable walkway across the track. It wouldn't just mean a footbridge, there would have to be disabled access, I suspect this may be one reason why the summer Saturday extras from Scarborough don't stop there, they use the avoiding line.

 

[mike57]

And to go back to the original post, come May the connections between the Yorkshire Coast line and York during most of the day look even worse if thats possible.

YCL > York, arrive Seamer xx.48, dep Seamer xx.51
York > YCL arrive Seamer xx.25 dep Seamer xx.26

I know its only a cross platform change, but 25/26 connection will never work, so you will have a hour to wait. To be honest I think its appalling that the time-tableing between the two lines cannot be better organised. The benefits of the hourly service on the YCL are being wasted by poor connections, even worse than at present.

 

[Harpers Tate]

That single platform at Malton will cause even more problems when the Northern services start next year. Does anyone know if there are any longer term plans to build another platform there?

I don't see why. The two existing departures are, as noted earlier in this thread, scheduled with only 9 minutes between them (at 04 and 13), leaving the one platform deserted and unused for over 50 minutes in every hour - plenty of time to add two more, similarly close, departures each offset from its existing counterpart by 30 minutes, even with a substantial degree of late running. And even then, there would still be capacity for at least a third departure each way if ever one were considered desirable.

 

[mike57]

I don't see why. The two existing departures are, as noted earlier in this thread, scheduled with only 9 minutes between them (at 04 and 13), leaving the one platform deserted and unused for over 50 minutes in every hour - plenty of time to add two more, similarly close, departures each offset from its existing counterpart by 30 minutes, even with a substantial degree of late running. And even then, there would still be capacity for at least a third departure each way if ever one were considered desirable.

The problem is TPE cannot run their trains on time. I travel to/from Seamer probably 3-4 days a week. Last Thursday train was 25 mins late into Seamer from Manchester, week before train was cancelled, had an hours wait, regular 5 -15 mins late, They can tweak their performance figures because of the timetable padding, about 6 mins at Leeds and 4 at York, but they are still a few minutes late more often than not. This is an ongoing problem. The problem is a minor delay out of Liverpool will result in a significant delay at the other end of the line in Scarborough due to congestion between Manchester and Leeds. You miss the path and get stuck behind a stopping service. It has been noticeably worse since the 5th train per hour was introduced between Leeds and Manchester, hence my comments in other threads that we need longer trains not more of them. Delay repay gives a steady drip feed of returned money, but I would rather be on time.

 

[IanXC]

And to go back to the original post, come May the connections between the Yorkshire Coast line and York during most of the day look even worse if thats possible.

YCL > York, arrive Seamer xx.48, dep Seamer xx.51
York > YCL arrive Seamer xx.25 dep Seamer xx.26

Your towards York connection times quoted above aren't representative of most of the day, its arrive Seamer xx47 and depart xx52 - I'm not sure that could be any better? (Yes there are two hours where its xx48 rather than xx47).

I know its only a cross platform change, but 25/26 connection will never work, so you will have a hour to wait. To be honest I think its appalling that the time-tableing between the two lines cannot be better organised. The benefits of the hourly service on the YCL are being wasted by poor connections, even worse than at present.

In the other direction there is clearly an intention to make a very good connection, in view of the sheer scale of this timetable change it might not get fixed at this stage but I'd be surprised if a good connection in the other direction does not appear in perhaps December's timetable.

Compare the May 2018 Northern times with the current TPE times - they're an exact 5 minute connection for most of the day... Seems to me the intention is there, but that bringing a timetable as big as this together is rather like nailing jelly to the wall.

 

[swissrailpassion]

The final Hull departure ex Scar at 2111 misses the York train by a few minutes. Why is the last train not at 2120 to be clock face? Furthermore why not run the last train at 2155 ex SCA to give a sensible timing for those going to an evening function.
Also the 0748 service from Bridlington is useful for commuters and schoolchildren who want to arrive in Scarborough before 8-30 but in the recast it runs 30 minutes later.