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Conscription.

DarloRich

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Which is why I keep banging on about the UK and Europe needing to tend to our defence industrial base again. We don't necessarily need to be spending at the levels that an actual war would require but it seems clear that we've all allowed things to slide to far and if we actually did need to defend ourselves and our allies it would prove extremely difficult. Just supporting Ukraine has strained the capacity of Europe to meet the demand for artillery shells for instance and two years in we don't appear to be making especially great strides in addressing that problem.
Agree - the big concern in this for me is that we simply cant rely on America to come to our aid if Trump wins. It will be like isolationism and appeasement rolled up into one and dressed up as patriotism or "America first". He will simply let Putin and others do as they want. The Ukraine war will end with Putin getting what he wants and then turning on the next target.

BTW it isn't about expecting the USA to do the work. It is about the power of the USA militarily, economically and industrially being there as a foundation of democracy. It just isn't going to be there under Trump. Look at the Trumpian party blocking Ukrainian aid in the US parliament. That's the future.
 
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nw1

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Should I be worrying? Personally I can’t see my generation or (especially) Gen Z . My generation are largely inept. Gen Z seem to think it cool and proper to despise the country so I can’t see them being any use neither.

Laura x

I'm not a Gen-Z-er, sadly, but I don't think they "despise the country".

They might, perhaps, despise its Government, Rishi Sunak, the Conservative Party, and Brexit more than other generations - but quite frankly, who can blame them? The direction things have gone since 2016 is exasperating beyond belief.

Despising a Government does not equal despising the country itself.

Onto the original question, I doubt there's going to be conscription. I suspect if Russia try anything on it'll more likely be cyber-warfare, and a large army can't help you there.
 

Gloster

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If there was a war the country would be expected to stick it out long enough for the government to relocate to its emergency centre…in Florida, as it is important to plan for the future (theirs, not ours). Of course, it will be vital that all the rich entrepreneurs will also be allowed to move there as well as we will need their skills and donations, sorry, investment to help all the cinders reestablish a thriving and unregulated market economy.
 

HSTEd

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The MoD's procurement apparatus is so incompetent that there is no chance of having enough equipment to raise the kinds of number of conscripts the general wants.

The army needs to dismantle it's procurement system and build a new one. It will probably have to cut personnel further to buy enough weapons and munitions to actually prevail.

It'd be far preferable to have the best armed and trained 50,000 troops in Europe than the general's half a million conscripts.
 

Thirteen

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I'm not a Gen-Z-er, sadly, but I don't think they "despise the country".

They might, perhaps, despise its Government, Rishi Sunak, the Conservative Party, and Brexit more than other generations - but quite frankly, who can blame them? The direction things have gone since 2016 is exasperating beyond belief.

Despising a Government does not equal despising the country itself.
I always think if people really hate the country they live in, they could just emigrate but they'll just find a different set of problems.
 

DM352

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I always think if people really hate the country they live in, they could just emigrate but they'll just find a different set of problems.
I agree. I live abroad and some of my family think it land of milk and honey when visiting but as I have found out, no country is "perfect" and we have similar issues. Even visiting the UK is not as bad being a tourist especially when riding a train!

Fom an earlier comment, it would likely be cyber warfare with cyber scientists defending and not a conscription for boots on ground
 

Reliablebeam

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A point I've not seen discussed at all is the state of the Merchant Navy. We don't have the MN sailors or ships to keep the country supplied.

I don't know how even the most rabid Torygraph reader can look at the state of this country at the minute and conclude there is any hope whatsoever we could sustain conventional warfare in the Nordics or the Baltics. It's for the birds.
 

adc82140

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What we need is an equivalent of the Gendarmerie. Full time military reservists who take on the functions of rural police officers during peacetime. Two problems solved: lack of military reservists and lack of police.
 

Scotrail314209

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They definitely do seem to be trying to encourage people into the RAF. I keep seeing adverts on social media and YouTube plus television about roles in the army.

Wonder if this is to try and increase the amount of people in the armed forces.
 

spyinthesky

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They definitely do seem to be trying to encourage people into the RAF. I keep seeing adverts on social media and YouTube plus television about roles in the army.

Wonder if this is to try and increase the amount of people in the armed forces.
Recruitment hasn’t been good for a long time in any of the three services.
A lot of conflicts have given boosts in recruitment till Afghanistan came along.
It had been many decades since we lost so many service personnel, with the social and mainstream media covering every sad news story, recruiting has been difficult ever since.
 

Ianigsy

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Anecdotally, one of my A-level English teachers was quite shrewd in postponing his National Service until after university. Once he turned up with a First from Cambridge, the Army decided very quickly that the best thing was for him to spend two years in the Education Corps teaching literacy skills to less well educated conscripts.

Which brings me to another point- having been on board a Royal Navy destroyer last year, I saw how complex a lot of the equipment that the forces use these days actually is. You can’t just stick a rifle in someone’s hands and point them in the direction of the enemy any more.
 

Lost property

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Recruitment hasn’t been good for a long time in any of the three services.
A lot of conflicts have given boosts in recruitment till Afghanistan came along.
It had been many decades since we lost so many service personnel, with the social and mainstream media covering every sad news story, recruiting has been difficult ever since.

Actually, Afghan generated a boost in recruitment for certain RAF roles. There was, however, a small problem when asked about their career hopes. Chinook crewman featured prominently (fair enough) but, so did....Apache crew / pilot ! The revelation came as a surprise to many.

The problem is not just recruitment, it's retention thereafter. Few, very few in fact, as I've said before saw progression to their personal wee and snot encrusted chair in the Mess as being their intent.

" Which brings me to another point- having been on board a Royal Navy destroyer last year, I saw how complex a lot of the equipment that the forces use these days actually is. You can’t just stick a rifle in someone’s hands and point them in the direction of the enemy any more."

You are correct when it comes to the complexity of equipment, and this is applicable to all the Armed Forces, but not quite when it comes to infantry training. The same criteria still applies as it always has and will do. Even the RAF have now placed an increased emphasis on being a "warfighter "....thankfully, old traditions still remain and checking in has not been replaced with digging in.
 

DarloRich

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I saw this tweet today that took me to this page on "They work for you": https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2024-01-18.10473.h&s=Andrew+Murrison#g10473.r0 which provided information to answer the question below asked by an SNP MP

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many Army personnel there have been on average in each year since 2000.

which shows that the UK armed forces have fallen by a third since 2000
  • Army: 109600 > 76950
  • RN/RM: 42800 > 32950
  • RAF:54600 > 31940
To put that in context
  • All of the Army would fit into Old Trafford.
  • All of the Navy would fit into Bramall Lane
  • All of the RAF would fit into the King Power Stadium
(those are the 2nd, 17th and 20th biggest football stadiums in England

A point I've not seen discussed at all is the state of the Merchant Navy. We don't have the MN sailors or ships to keep the country supplied.
The Royal Fleet Auxiliary is in a shocking state also. We haven't got the crews to man a solid stores ship to keep our warships at sea!
 
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1D54

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How many escaped the conscription call up in West Germany in the cold war era simply by packing bags and moving to West Berlin where the Bonn government couldn't touch them? Probably explains why the city is the way it is decades later.. I suppose people of a similar ilk could have buggered off to Scotland in this modern day but the SNP have put a halt to that one due to their incompetent governing of the country.
 

najaB

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I’ve seen plenty of him reading from a teleprompter. Even the ‘next line’ annotations. Does that count? However when I said he struggles to string a sentence together I wasn’t referring to teleprompter speeches written by someone else. I’m talking about his troubling lack of ability to answer questions or engage in conversation. Not speeches.
The problem there is that you're naturally going to be exposed to clips which are selected to suit a particular narrative. After all, "Reporter asks a question, gets a sensible answer." isn't Twitter-worthy.
Case in point. Fox News has been using a small snip of a longer speech to push their narrative that he's in severe cognitive decline, where a longer excerpt makes it obvious that he was making a joke.


This was only a couple of weeks after Fox and various other right-wing media sources posted to Twitter/X that he was confused and believed that he was still a senator. Then video from several different sources showed that he didn't say "I'm Joe Biden and I work in the Senate" (which would have been a very odd thing to say), but actually said "I'm Joe Biden and I work for the Senator..." as a playful way to introduce himself, the Senator and another official).
 

RichJF

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With all this talk of conscription and the like, am I the only one getting extremely anxious about it? It kept me awake last night and I’ve been thinking about it ever since.

I did initially think that those who say we should prepare for the worst were just using their voice to pressure the government into boosting armed services funding. When I saw Sweden the other week mention that citizens could be asked to help should war break out I just thought it was politics and engineering something. But now I hear talk of conscription a lot this week and I’m genuinely frightened.

Should I be worrying? Personally I can’t see my generation or (especially) Gen Z . My generation are largely inept. Gen Z seem to think it cool and proper to despise the country so I can’t see them being any use neither.

Laura x

As someone who works in an industry connected to defence DO NOT worry or let it affect you. You shouldn't let anything you see in mainstream media scare you. A lot of the time the journalists writing the stories don't actually know what they're talking about. 90% of the media are out for immediate headline grabbing readership/viewership.

What in reality this will mean is the govt will be pressed to provide additional funding for defence procurement programmes to keep our armed forces relevant; nuclear subs, new tanks, improved personal armour for soldiers etc.

Keep going about your daily life & enjoy it. Don't let this affect you as that's what scaremongers want.
 

Eyersey468

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I think a lot of it is media scaremongering to be honest, I think it is very unlikely we would reintroduce conscription
 

najaB

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I think a lot of it is media scaremongering to be honest, I think it is very unlikely we would reintroduce conscription
I'm not a big fan of the term "scaremongering" since it's often accompanied by suggestions that the stories are made up. In this case it's more likely that they are just putting a selective spin on actual quotes in order to get more content views.
 

adc82140

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As someone who works in an industry connected to defence DO NOT worry or let it affect you. You shouldn't let anything you see in mainstream media scare you. A lot of the time the journalists writing the stories don't actually know what they're talking about. 90% of the media are out for immediate headline grabbing readership/viewership.

What in reality this will mean is the govt will be pressed to provide additional funding for defence procurement programmes to keep our armed forces relevant; nuclear subs, new tanks, improved personal armour for soldiers etc.

Keep going about your daily life & enjoy it. Don't let this affect you as that's what scaremongers want.
Thank you. It's always good to hear from someone who has good knowledge of a subject. I spent a fair amount of time on here using my professional background in Healthcare to put down media rumours during Covid. You are right, most journalists don't have a clue about what they are writing. It's mostly not borne of maliciousness, but of ignorance.
 

Silenos

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They don't have a hope of invading - even making an attempt. The islands are reinforced now and "Forewarned is forearmed". We would know by intel ,if they even "twitched" in making any preparations. Totally different situation now to 1982.
I imagine the Israelis thought the same about Gaza
 

Iskra

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Personally, I think the current conversation has only come about as a convenient political distraction and way of filling column-inches at a slow time of year. I doubt it is seriously going to happen, or that the military is properly equipped and ready to implement conscription successfully. I’m also not sure how much value massed ranks of hastily trained infantry offer in modern warfare, and historically the professional but small British army has always performed well against mass conscript armies.

A defence blog I read has this interesting take on the topic:

http://*******.com/4e88m7np

It is a rather remarkable state of affairs to be in when No10 Downing Street feels the need to confirm that it is not HM Government policy to bring back conscription to the UK. This previously unthinkable interjection occurred after remarks from the Chief of the General Staff (CGS), General Sir Patrick Sanders, on the wider context of how the UK needs to shift its thinking towards the move to conflict. In his view, there is a need for a national debate around how the UK population need to mentally prepare for the changes that society would experience were the Russian threat to become outright war. These remarks have in turn spurred a wider debate about conscription and national service in the UK and what more can be done to boost the mass of the armed forces in peacetime.

The UK has not had any form of conscription since the last national servicemen were called up in 1960. Since that point it has been reliant on an entirely volunteer force made up of three core parts. The regular armed forces, the volunteer reserves (spare time members who serve for varying periods) and the regular reserve. The latter was of key importance during the Cold War as a source of personnel who would retain some equipment, documents and limited contact with the military after leaving in the expectation of being called up in the event of general war. The regular reserve was quietly left to languish after 1991 and to all intents and purposes became little more than a paperwork exercise – there was no practical way it could be used or drawn on for people in an emergency. It now appears that MOD thinking is shifting towards re-establishing a ‘whole force’ which increases the mass of people who can be drawn on to both augment the regular force and provide mass to regenerate parts of the military in wartime. Such a move would represent a very significant policy shift and provide several challenges to put in place, but it is definitely a move that needs to be considered.

UK MOD © Crown copyright 2023


The first question to ask is ‘what is the MOD requirement likely to be for’? There seems to be a few different requirements here. Firstly providing mass, to have a pool of partially trained people able to serve if called upon, with less training needed. Secondly it is a way to close gaps in the existing regular structure, providing people with some experience already to augment into a unit to help thicken its operational capability. Finally it seems to be about finding specialists with highly niche skills that do not usually exist in the military, but which would be needed in wartime (e.g. specialist engineers, cyber tech sector etc).

There would be a few ways of doing this short of bringing back conscription. The first would be to expand the opportunities for people to conduct condensed training ahead of university then go onto study and be a reservist. There is a long tradition of this in the armed forces, offering ‘gap year commissions’ for people to serve for a year then leave. More recently the Army experimented during OP HERRICK by recruiting people to serve in 4 PARA with the promise of completing training and deploying on an Op Tour as part of an FTRS contract -a move that, anecdotally, was popular to young men seeking a bit of adventure before doing a ‘real job’. Finally the RNR offers a summer commissioning programme for both Ratings and Officers, who do 6-12 weeks full time training at RALEIGH and BRNC before passing out and becoming reservists.

The benefits of programmes like this is that they offer people paid work, a chance to do something very different with their time and some good adventure at a point in their life when they are (relatively) commitment free. The challenge is working out the return of service and benefit to the military. Anecdotally many of the RNR personnel who joined the accelerated training programme have quickly gone onto Regular careers, meaning the Reserves did not benefit in creating a new cadre of personnel. People may also not want to retain links to the military after uni, meaning that for all the good Gap Year commissions offer, they do not bring long term benefits to the Service.

Relying on people with ‘muscle memory’ is of arguably finite benefit. Having done a short amount of reservist training a few years ago doesn’t mean you will be of value to the modern military if called on. If anything there is nothing more dangerous than ex-reservists with ‘bad habits’ going back through training again – far easier to shape and mould recruits from scratch for the sake of a few weeks additional training.

A similar argument applies to the Regular Reserve, where suggestions have been made that service leavers should attend an annual weekend each year to ‘stay in touch’ and pass their fitness test and weapons handling test. Such a move is likely to be challenging to deliver – many people leave the military for good reasons and don’t want to re-engage. Is putting grumpy ex-soldiers in for a weekend of ‘mandatory fun’ involving live ammunition really a sensible idea? This move would require a very fundamental mindset shift on the part of the British public to a point where a ‘whole force’ approach is central to how joiners think – they join because they reasonably expect a long-term commitment to the military as a lifelong calling, not a finite short term job. The optics of making the Regular Reserve a far more central part of the military experience will need careful handling, lest people perceive it as a ‘Hotel California’ experience that you can join, but never leave.

Perhaps the solution is instead to think far more literally about the concept of ‘whole force’ and be prepared to pay for it? By this the author means that rather than just extend service benefits to regular personnel, look at extending ‘the offer’ more widely to people to give them a reason to stay in, or at least stay in touch. For example, part of the challenge recruiting younger reservists is that ‘real life’ tends to get in the way and after they settle down, get a career, have kids etc many of them have less time and interest in their military life. To keep people in the system, particularly experienced people with skills that are needed, versus new joiners, then the offer needs to be compelling to make staying for the long term make sense.

UK MOD © Crown copyright 2023

A simple win would be to resort to old-fashioned bribery and financial inducements. For example in the UK right now the average expected student loan debt is around £45,000 per student. This will be subject to a phenomenally complicated repayment schedule, but in broad terms requires paying 9% of your salary each month over a certain earning threshold for many years. This means, for example, that a British Army Captain on appointment is paying £150 a month student repayments (£1824 per year) – it will take over 20 years to repay this debt.

One easy ‘quick win’ could be for the Government to commit to paying off a percentage of your outstanding student loan for each year you serve, reducing the balance and interest payments. For example it could scale up, maybe 5% for the first five years (paying off a quarter of your debt), then increasing to 10% for the next five years (75% paid off) and 12.5% for the next 4 years (100%) paid off. This would mean that the average service person (regular or reserve) would be student debt free if they served for 10-15 years, and would be thousands of pounds better off each year – money that could pay for mortgage. Suddenly staying in, even as a reservist, makes a lot more sense given the financial impact of leaving.

A similar approach could be taken to housing. If a truly whole force perspective was taken, then why not build single living accommodation (SLA) for reservists across the UK? The offer could be simple, for as long as you are an active reservist, you are entitled to live at military rates in SLA, until such point as you buy your own property. Suddenly membership of the reserve becomes incredibly appealing as it means younger people at the start of their careers don’t need to find over £1000 per month to rent a room in London. It would be challenging to administer, but why not give it a go? If you could offer a reservist junior officer 5-10 years of very cheap accommodation and student loan repayment in return for regular commitment and call up when needed, retention would be far less difficult to manage.

This may sound obvious but saying ‘whole force’ means applying benefits to the ‘whole force’ – offering very cheap accommodation to reservists gives you a pool of people to draw on when needed. If you need a reserve force to provide mass when required, you need to set the conditions to retain it, not just rely on the offer of ‘world class leadership training’ (which, to be frank it really isn’t) and some vague promises of AT at some far-off date. Such a move would significantly increase costs, but at a price likely to be far less than expanding salaries or recruiting lots more regular personnel.

There are challenges to delivering this sort of move though. Not least that of medicals – if you want to recruit a force for ‘gap year commissions’ or specialists then you need to massively reduce the medical standards. Setting the bar high for an infanteer who needs to be intensely physical makes a lot of sense, but equally if medical standards stand in the way of good people joining, then they need to be re-evaluated. Thinking ‘whole force’ means accepting that you will bring people into service as a reservist whose medical card may be marked ‘only to be deployed in the event of general war’ and accepting they may struggle with some aspects of training. But equally if that risk in turn gives you access to linguists, software engineers and others with highly sought after skills then its probably a risk worth taking. We need to accept that the vast majority of the military won’t do front line close quarters combat – e.g Admin clerks, engineers and the RAF Regiment (), but that they can still do their bit.

If you insist on trying to make every recruit meet high standards you’ll end up running out of people (as happened in WW1 and WW2). Also it makes for an awkward conversation when it comes to what to do about the Regular Reserve when they arrive for call up – the vast majority of them have little chance as 30-50 somethings of meeting the medical standard of an 18 year old. At this point we’re either accepting them on risk or rejecting them outright. If the latter, then what is the point of a regular reserve, and if the former, why not take similar risks on new joiners?

The other question to ask is to generate this ‘whole force’, does the MOD need conscription to find people or can it rely on other approaches? There is a good argument that investment in the Cadet Force movement (one of the finest bodies of volunteers in the UK who have done untold good for their charges) and the University Units would help create a pool of interested applicants for regular and reserve service. Similarly looking to make more intelligent use of service leavers could also keep mass and skills in the system – for example, it could be set up so that every service leaver automatically transferred on leaving to the volunteer reserve, enabling them to keep a link to the military while they set up their new life. This seamless transfer would keep ties to the Service intact, while also keeping them available and credible on their equipment and training.

The risk of skills fade though is high and perhaps not considered enough. There is little point having a reserve to call on if all you get is middle aged veterans who haven’t used the equipment currently in service, are years out of date on tactics, procedures and equipment and who add little of direct value to a modern military. How much use (for example) would an RN regular reservist be if the last missile system they supported was the Sea Dart (which left service over a decade ago). The risk of relying on a regular reserve is that it gives the illusion of mass, but no certainties of skill or credible value to the current armed forces. This is where the volunteer reserve which at least trains regularly would add far more value to the force.

UK MOD © Crown copyright 2023

The wider question is whether this whole force needs some kind of ‘national service’ to find enough people to staff it. This is a complex question to ask because arguably the military don’t hugely need lots of unwilling conscripts who have been forced into a role they don’t want to do for 2 years. They won’t gain enough experience or skills to be useful and many of them will begrudge the experience. Equally though the armed forces do need people with very specialist skills that can take many years to acquire, and where the military struggle to compete with civilian recruiters. Take the Tech sector for instance, where employers are fighting with each other to attract highly skilled talent with very niche skills. Or look at the engineering sector where people with good engineering skills, particularly at supervisory levels, are needed in the military, but prove increasingly hard to retain.

Perhaps paradoxically some kind of national service is needed, but not for conscripts to serve at the start of their career, when they could in theory form some division many years later in a crisis using obsolete weapons and equipment. Instead what is needed is selective conscription of skilled people, at all stages in their career to fix the skills gaps inside the armed forces in peace and war. A genuinely bold move maybe to offer extremely tempting incentives to volunteer (as discussed above) but for areas where needs are high and people are low, perhaps ‘conscription as a sponsored reservist’ may be considered. In this case, selecting people to be nominated to be a sponsored reservist and attend mandatory training, and then be called on when required for operations. Such a model may work well for the tech sector where the combination of military recruiting requirements almost automatically ruling many applicants out, plus the general sense of many in the sector that the military lifestyle is the last thing they want, means that conscription may be the best answer. Such a move would need significant flexibility on medical standards, and an acceptance that it existed as a last resort, but it could be a way to consider staffing gaps in a crisis where you need people with real world experience to be employed in a military environment.

Any move to do this would be politically deeply contentious in the UK but may prove to be the ultimate fallback for the delivery of a ‘whole force’ that can be called on at short notice. It would send a powerful deterrence message too, that the UK is embarking on deep societal change to respond to the threats posed by Russia and is willing to consider previously unthinkable steps to meet this.

Ultimately delivering the ‘whole force’ will require a lot of money, a lot of political willingness to do things very differently and a military willingness to fundamentally change how they recruit and operate. But it may be a price worth paying to ensure that ‘National Service guarantees citizenship’.
 

Silenos

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Oh absolutely and I don't doubt that if we switched to a wartime economy again incredible things could be done with 30, 40 or 50% of 2024 UK GDP. But, it would take a lot longer for that money and effort to yield fruit. The UK of the 1930s and 1940s had a lot of industrial capacity that could be switched quickly to produce war material. Take the famous example of the de Havilland Mosquito many of which had major structural components created by furniture firms who were able to switch from making wardrobes to aircraft. We don't have the base industrial capacity to switch anymore so it would have to be created from scratch. We hardly even have primary steel production anymore with Port Talbot about to close their blast furnaces and Scunthorpe just clinging on.

Which is why I keep banging on about the UK and Europe needing to tend to our defence industrial base again. We don't necessarily need to be spending at the levels that an actual war would require but it seems clear that we've all allowed things to slide to far and if we actually did need to defend ourselves and our allies it would prove extremely difficult. Just supporting Ukraine has strained the capacity of Europe to meet the demand for artillery shells for instance and two years in we don't appear to be making especially great strides in addressing that problem.
The Russians have successfully converted their own (smaller) economy to a war footing. Putin has (in my view correctly) calculated that the West does not have the stamina or the resources for the long haul, whereas Russia does. Thus eventually Russia will achieve, if not the total conquest of Ukraine, at least control of most of the industrial and agricultural resources in the east and south. In addition, Russia is continuing to win the diplomatic arguments in the global South.

There is, I think, little chance that Russia will ever invade the U.K. They won’t need to - we will simply have to acquiesce to Russian policies. So no need to worry about conscription- other than, perhaps, as part of an ‘International Friendship Brigade’ sent out to support our friends in Moscow.

Not really comparable. Unless you think the Argentinians are going to cut a hole in the fence with the Falklands and invade using paramotors?
A multi-billion dollar security apparatus, with the latest equipment and a highly militarised population, was caught out by a limited number of men equipped with fairly basic weapons, resulting in the greatest massacre of their citizens since the Shoah. It should be a warning to all those who think there is no chance of their sophisticated intel and systems ever being fooled.

Personally, I think the current conversation has only come about as a convenient political distraction and way of filling column-inches at a slow time of year. I doubt it is seriously going to happen, or that the military is properly equipped and ready to implement conscription successfully. I’m also not sure how much value massed ranks of hastily trained infantry offer in modern warfare, and historically the professional but small British army has always performed well against mass conscript armies.

A defence blog I read has this interesting take on the topic:

Thank you for that really interesting post
 
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najaB

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A multi-billion dollar security apparatus, with the latest equipment and a highly militarised population, was caught out by a limited number of men equipped with fairly basic weapons, resulting in the greatest massacre of their citizens since the Shoah. It should be a warning to all those who think there is no chance of their sophisticated intel and systems ever being fooled.
It wasn't a failure of the intel system, it was a failure of the people in charge of the decision-making. There are verified reports that the upper echelons of Israel's military and government were given numerous warnings that something was in the planning. For whatever reason, the higher-ups dismissed the warnings rather than acting on them.

They are known as Israel's eyes on the Gaza border.

For years, units of young female conscripts had one job here. It was to sit in surveillance bases for hours, looking for signs of anything suspicious.

In the months leading up to the 7 October attacks by Hamas, they did begin to see things: practice raids, mock hostage-taking, and farmers behaving strangely on the other side of the fence.

Noa, not her real name, says they would pass information about what they were seeing to intelligence and higher-ranking officers, but were powerless to do more. "We were just the eyes," she says.

It was clear to some of these women that Hamas was planning something big - that there was, in Noa's words, a "balloon that was going to burst".

 

Silenos

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13 Dec 2022
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300
Location
Norfolk
It wasn't a failure of the intel system, it was a failure of the people in charge of the decision-making.
The people who assess the data and make the decisions are a key part of any intel system. And the Israelis have decades of constant practice at this. Do we really think that the UK decision makers are so much better?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,840
Location
Scotland
Do we really think that the UK decision makers are so much better?
Yes. The success (so far) of our domestic counter-terrorism effort suggests that they aren't as bad.

There are those who hold that the Israeli government deliberately ignored the warnings specifically so that they had an excuse to pursue a campaign against Hamas. They probably just didn't expect the attack to be as big as it was.
 

87electric

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2010
Messages
1,023
How are Russia really a threat to attacking Europe anyway?

As far as I am aware, from Russia's point of view their invasion of Ukraine has been a disaster and severely damaged their military might so I don't see any advantage for Russia attacking the rest of Europe.

To me the story smacks of more media scare mongering and social engineering. Keep the public scared so they don't wake up to the real issues that are affecting our country.

For starters the obsession with importing food and selling off of farmers land.

Its why I no longer watch the news or read newspapers.

I suggest reading the book 'Flat Earth News' by the investigatitive journalist, Nick Robinson, who has accumilated over 30 years experience working in the industry, if you wish to gain some insight into how the media really works.

For me the most helpful things have been to realise that I can't control what is happening in the world and worrying about the world isn't helping anyone including myself, appreciate that there is still a lot of beauty in the world and most people have good intentions most of the time, perhaps find some kind of therapy or self improvement method either through working with someone or if working with someone is out of your budget there are plenty of videos, podcasts, and books, maybe find something creative, spirituality can be helpful for many and many other ways.

And realise that the media are not for the benefit of the public. The media are a corporate industry and like most modern industries their primary goal is profit for their shareholders. The mainstream media no longer care about telling the truth and they know that fear and anger sells.
No one seems to want to reply to you, but I hope they took note.
The only truth in this life is that we are all commodities. Understand that and it all becomes more clearer on how to move forward and make decisions that are more beneficial and rewarding for ourselves.
We only get one life, be positive.
 

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