Contactless - Tapping in but not able to tap out - prosecution

[tonka123]

Hi there,

I live in London (zone 5) so only use contactless all the time, as does my husband. Recently he travelled to visit a work colleague on mat leave and tapped in at our local train station but went the other way out of London on the same train line, assuming he'd tap out at the end. However, an inspector got on the train and said he'd have to fine him as contactless didn't work where he was travelling to. My husband disputed it and explained he wasn't aware he couldn't tap out at the other end. He paid the fare there and then. He then received a letter of fine, disputed it and we've now returned from holiday with 2 days left to pay a without prejudice fine plus fare otherwise they've included a notice to prosecute.

This was not intentional fare invasion. Is there any hope in writing back to them again disputing it considering southern railway have contactless in may of their stations hence how was he to know they didn't have them where he was going on the same line as where he got on OR should he pay the £68 fine. It seems really unfair for a genuine mistake and I'm unsure how you're meant to know that only half a (short) line (Hertford to Moorgate) has contactless!

Thanks in advance

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi there,

I live in London (zone 5) so only use contactless all the time, as does my husband. Recently he travelled to visit a work colleague on mat leave and tapped in at our local train station but went the other way out of London on the same train line, assuming he'd tap out at the end. However, an inspector got on the train and said he'd have to fine him as contactless didn't work where he was travelling to. My husband disputed it and explained he wasn't aware he couldn't tap out at the other end. He paid the fare there and then. He then received a letter of fine, disputed it and we've now returned from holiday with 2 days left to pay a without prejudice fine plus fare otherwise they've included a notice to prosecute.

This was not intentional fare invasion. Is there any hope in writing back to them again disputing it considering southern railway have contactless in may of their stations hence how was he to know they didn't have them where he was going on the same line as where he got on OR should he pay the £68 fine. It seems really unfair for a genuine mistake and I'm unsure how you're meant to know that only half a (short) line (Hertford to Moorgate) has contactless!

Thanks in advance

Welcome to the forum!

We need much more detail to be able to assist you properly. Can you please state:

- Where he tapped in
- Where he said he was travelling to
- Where he met the inspector
- Has he done this before?

It sounds like your husband may have been issued a penalty fare (a fine can only be issued by the courts). If this is the case, my advice would be to pay this IMMEDIATELY as the alternative (an out of court settlement/prosecution) will almost certainly cost significantly more than a penalty fare will.

There are a few things in this story that don't add up.

For instance, you say that he paid on the train AND received a notice to pay. This is very unusual, are you sure these are the facts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This does seem a bit odd. I wonder if the Penalty Fare was incorrectly not recorded as paid, as the amount sounds like a Penalty Fare (settlements are almost always £100+fare). Does he have a receipt for it, or other record proving it e.g. card statement?

Even if it's a duplicate it may actually be worth paying it and then pursuing a refund if you've only got 2 days left - the way things work on the railway, if a Penalty Fare goes unpaid it tends to automatically escalate, and getting out of that can be very difficult even if you're in the right. With more time an appeal would be the way to go.

 

[Haywain]

He paid the fare there and then.

Did he actually pay anything at the time? If so, how much and does he have a receipt?

He then received a letter of fine, disputed it and we've now returned from holiday with 2 days left to pay a without prejudice fine plus fare otherwise they've included a notice to prosecute.

Can you post a copy of the letter, with personal details redacted? That may help us to provide advice.

 

[tonka123]

- Where he tapped in - ENFIELD CHASE
- Where he said he was travelling to - STEVENAGE
- Where he met the inspector - STEVENAGE (but on the train just as he was about to get off, end of the line)
- Has he done this before? - NO

He paid £14.30 at the time (and a debit card receipt for payment from Thameslink/Great Northern headed) plus the cost of tapping in and what is now an incomplete journey!

Welcome to the forum!

We need much more detail to be able to assist you properly. Can you please state:

- Where he tapped in
- Where he said he was travelling to
- Where he met the inspector
- Has he done this before?

It sounds like your husband may have been issued a penalty fare (a fine can only be issued by the courts). If this is the case, my advice would be to pay this IMMEDIATELY as the alternative (an out of court settlement/prosecution) will almost certainly cost significantly more than a penalty fare will.

There are a few things in this story that don't add up.

For instance, you say that he paid on the train AND received a notice to pay. This is very unusual, are you sure these are the facts?

this is the payment of the fare receipt

Did he actually pay anything at the time? If so, how much and does he have a receipt?

Can you post a copy of the letter, with personal details redacted? That may help us to provide advice.

see attached

 

[Haywain]

He paid £14.30 at the time (and a debit card receipt for payment from Thameslink/Great Northern headed) plus the cost of tapping in and what is now an incomplete journey!

So he actually paid this after leaving the train, and after being spoken to by the revenue staff. Unfortunately, that won't count for anything.

 

[MikeWh]

plus the cost of tapping in and what is now an incomplete journey!

Contact the Oyster helpline and explain that the fare has been paid by an alternative method, they should refund the incomplete charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unusual for a settlement to be at the same level as a Penalty Fare. Never seen that before, it's almost always £100!

Paying this will be the only way to make it go away for sure, and not paying it will result in the matter escalating, unfortunately.

The additional ticket purchased after inspection could be refunded minus a £10 admin fee as this is effectively unused, though that only gets you 4 quid back it's better than nothing. Pop into the ticket office and explain there to do that.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage is my local station and the staff on the gateline are constantly dealing with people who think they can use contactless to the station.

It seems to me as though:

1. A revenue inspector took your husband’s details on the train approaching Stevenage. This is what seems to have generated the out of court settlement offer from GTR.

2. Stevenage station has sold a ticket from Enfield Chase to Stevenage. When your husband’s details were taken on the train he should’ve been given a receipt which he should’ve used to be let through the barriers at Stevenage? Was he given any paperwork by the person who took his details?

3. TfL (who administer contactless payments) will have charged a maximum fare for the journey where he tapped in at Enfield Chase but didn’t touch out.

I think the crucial thing here is the circumstances around the payment of £14.30. Where and when was this payment made? Did your husband have a receipt from the inspector after he had his details given?

The train from Enfield Chase would’ve come into platform 5 at Stevenage which is remote from the rest of the station. Was payment taken at that gateline, or somewhere else?

 

[fandroid]

Very definitely, the advice is to pay the sum requested in the letter. As has been mentioned by others, this is a relatively modest request, and quite unusual by normal railway standards. Unfortunately your husband was guilty of an offence by not having a ticket when requested on board the train. It's an absolute offence, so there's no defence of lack of intention to avoid payment.

Your frustration is understandable as the boundaries of the contactless area are not well-known by the public, and in fact, are in the process of being extended, just not yet to Stevenage.

By all means complain to Thameslink via their customer services team, but only once the sum has been paid and a receipt received.

 

[Hadders]

Very definitely, the advice is to pay the sum requested in the letter. As has been mentioned by others, this is a relatively modest request, and quite unusual by normal railway standards. Unfortunately your husband was guilty of an offence by not having a ticket when requested on board the train. It's an absolute offence, so there's no defence of lack of intention to avoid payment.

Your frustration is understandable as the boundaries of the contactless area are not well-known by the public, and in fact, are in the process of being extended, just not yet to Stevenage.

By all means complain to Thameslink via their customer services team, but only once the sum has been paid and a receipt received.

I normally advise paying up to make the matter go away.

However, I am not advising that at this stage until I know more about the circumstances in which the ticket for £14.30 was sold at Stevenage station.

I appreciate time is very short, and the passenger should be penalised for travelling without a valid ticket but IF the passenger has had their details taken, and then been made to pay to exit Stevenage station, that is not right.

It is possible that the ticket sold at Stevenage was for the return journey. Again, we need further details from the OP.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The additional ticket purchased after inspection could be refunded minus a £10 admin fee as this is effectively unused, though that only gets you 4 quid back it's better than nothing. Pop into the ticket office and explain there to do that.

As more than 28 days have elapsed since the event (the receipt shown in post #5 is dated 16th June), any refund for the ticket purchased at Stevenage will likely need to be requested through GTR Customer Services.

 

[Haywain]

The additional ticket purchased after inspection could be refunded minus a £10 admin fee as this is effectively unused, though that only gets you 4 quid back it's better than nothing. Pop into the ticket office and explain there to do that.

I'm not convinced that a refund is necessarily due for that ticket. Presumably, a ticket was still required for a return journey to Enfield Chase, and that ticket would have fulfilled the requirement. The single for the journey is only 50p cheaper than the return.

 

[tonka123]

Stevenage is my local station and the staff on the gateline are constantly dealing with people who think they can use contactless to the station.

It seems to me as though:

1. A revenue inspector took your husband’s details on the train approaching Stevenage. This is what seems to have generated the out of court settlement offer from GTR.

2. Stevenage station has sold a ticket from Enfield Chase to Stevenage. When your husband’s details were taken on the train he should’ve been given a receipt which he should’ve used to be let through the barriers at Stevenage? Was he given any paperwork by the person who took his details?

3. TfL (who administer contactless payments) will have charged a maximum fare for the journey where he tapped in at Enfield Chase but didn’t touch out.

I think the crucial thing here is the circumstances around the payment of £14.30. Where and when was this payment made? Did your husband have a receipt from the inspector after he had his details given?

The train from Enfield Chase would’ve come into platform 5 at Stevenage which is remote from the rest of the station. Was payment taken at that gateline, or somewhere else?

Thanks for the POV - answers below:

1. That’s correct
2. He did get some paperwork and let through the barrier, and told to buy the correct ticket for the whole journey from the Stevenage ticket office. He did this and purchased the return ticket for Enfield Chase to Hitchin and back again.
3. Okay - understand this is a sink cost, though would like to have thought it is some indication of truth to his version of events vs having any ambition to dodge a fare

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for the POV - answers below:

1. That’s correct
2. He did get some paperwork and let through the barrier, and told to buy the correct ticket for the whole journey from the Stevenage ticket office. He did this and purchased the return ticket for Enfield Chase to Hitchin and back again.
3. Okay - understand this is a sink cost, though would like to have thought it is some indication of truth to his version of events vs having any ambition to dodge a fare

Thanks for confirming.

Given that your husband was let through with the paperwork he was given by the revenue inspector I think the best thing to do is to pay up to prevent the matter from escalating.

Your husband needed to purchase a ticket for the return journey anyway and I suspect this is what the staff were referring to when they directed him to the ticket office. The difference between a single and a return ticket is only 50p.

Once the matter is settled it might be worth lodging a complaint with GTR Customer Services.

The main issue here is the fact that contactless cannot be used north of Hertford North. Many people are caught out by this. My casual observations at Stevenage suggest that if someone turns up at the gateline thinking they can use contactless they are normally sold a ticket. Unfortunately for your husband he was caught by a Revenue Protection Inspector who reported the matter, and that is why the Prosecutions Department has got involved.

 

[tonka123]

Thanks for confirming.

Given that your husband was let through with the paperwork he was given by the revenue inspector I think the best thing to do is to pay up to prevent the matter from escalating.

Your husband needed to purchase a ticket for the return journey anyway and I suspect this is what the staff were referring to when they directed him to the ticket office. The difference between a single and a return ticket is only 50p.

Once the matter is settled it might be worth lodging a complaint with GTR Customer Services.

The main issue here is the fact that contactless cannot be used north of Hertford North. Many people are caught out by this. My casual observations at Stevenage suggest that if someone turns up at the gateline thinking they can use contactless they are normally sold a ticket. Unfortunately for your husband he was caught by a Revenue Protection Inspector who reported the matter, and that is why the Prosecutions Department has got involved.

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated! It’s a really frustrating situation and I’m sure many people get caught out by this.

 

[Malaxa]

Our of interest, are there on-board announcements on northbound trains shortly before Hertford North, stating that contactless is not valid beyond that point? In which case the option would be to tap out at Hertford North and re-book.

 

[jon0844]

700s, 717s and 387s now give warnings about Oyster and Contactless, although there are some limitations which means some messages just say to check the route maps for validity.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated! It’s a really frustrating situation and I’m sure many people get caught out by this.

You’re welcome!

Lots do get caught out, based on my observations at Stevenage station. All the stations on the Hertford Loop line accept contactless (and Oyster!) except Watton at Stone and Stevenage.

Contactless will come to Stevenage as part of Phase 2 of Project Oval.

Our of interest, are there on-board announcements on northbound trains shortly before Hertford North, stating that contactless is not valid beyond that point? In which case the option would be to tap out at Hertford North and re-book.

In my experience there are announcements but these days many are wearing headphones or simply don’t listen to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

700s, 717s and 387s now give warnings about Oyster and Contactless, although there are some limitations which means some messages just say to check the route maps for validity.

Both Chiltern and LNR do too.

 

[fandroid]

Fast SWR trains out of Waterloo on the main line give out warnings; either immediately, if the train is not due to stop at Clapham Junction, or at Clapham Junction. Presumably, trains stopping at stations at or before Surbiton do something similar

 

[miklcct]

Southern 377 and Gatwick Express 387 have explicit warning saying they aren't valid beyond the next station upon arriving Gatwick Airport. However, the warning on 700 or 717 is the generic one saying that they "are only valid on certain routes and stations", which is broadcasted before reaching certain boundary stations such at St Pancras, Potters Bar no matter which route the train is on.

On LNR or Southeastern trains, the driver always manually says that they are not valid beyond Watford Junction / Stratford International in my experience.

However, not all train companies have this warning. If I remember correctly Greater Anglia doesn't have this which catch out a lot of airport travellers.

 

[jon0844]

700/717s don't appear able to only play an announcement based on direction of travel so that's why it is generic. It can't say 'Oyster isn't valid beyond this station' or it would say it at Potters Bar as you go towards King's Cross. It's one of a huge list of flaws with a system that should have been so dynamic it could show all sorts of information - instead of being extremely limited. Upgrades cost money and the DfT will likely be happy with the bodge that probably cost £0.

387s can do it and so at WGC it will say contactless payment is not valid beyond this station or similar. Other Bombardier trains using the same PIS say this relating to contactless and Oyster too.