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Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

GatwickDepress

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If you ever gone on a Railtour with a rare locomotive (or even a class 73 ) you'd notice trainspotters have got younger than ever. Tiktokkers like that Francis guy have helped hugely. I heard lots of older enthusiast sneer at him but him and his imitators are keeping your hobby alive.
A problem is though I doubt many are signing up at heritage railways to do all the jobs typically performed presently by retired people
Sam's Trains - whom RMWeb seems to absolutely loathe for some reason - is very popular with the younger crowd. Indeed, there seems to be more and more younger people with an interest in the hobby of model railways these days, far more than when I were a wee bairn in the ancient days of the early 2000s.
That's no doubt true but that isn't the same thing. Enthusiasm for contemporary railways is very definitely a mainstream thing in Japan, perhaps there are cultural reasons why they are less interested in the historical aspects?
I wonder whether the early nationalisation and standardisation of Japanese railways plays a part in this. There was never an equivalent to the huge variety of locomotives, rolling stock, architecture, operating practice, or culture that the Big Four - let alone the pre-grouping era - had here in Britain. Plus, it seems that kettle fans love nothing more than to argue which company had the best designers and locomotives, and it's somewhat difficult to do that when there's only one major railway company and a lot of stock and practice was imported - the Japanese government often hired railway experts from abroad, like Richard Trevithick's grandson who devised the first locomotive classification system for them.

Not to say there wasn't variety, as there certainly was and still is with the mixture of gauges, electrification standards, terrain, and 'third sector' companies, but there was never that loss of 'real trains' that British enthusiasts were hung up on starting with the end of the steam and then the replacement of locomotive-hauled trains with units. You'll be hard-pressed to find many Japanese enthusiasts calling a modern unit 'soulless plastic'.
 
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nw1

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It's both. Quality connections are of benefit to the customer, because it gives them a wider choice of destinations at any time of day.



That could of course be achieved without breaking the Takt. For CrossCountry, for instance (ignoring the Class 170 services which really should go to other TOCs as they're a poor fit and badly run), you've basically got a big X shape, with Manchester and Newcastle to the north and Reading and the Westcountry to the south (plus the random extensions, but that's the core). Assuming you wanted to avoid portion working as a good cause of severe punctuality issues, you could run one long train every two hours down each pair of routes (and add in a few more hourly short workings where demand is high, e.g. Manchester to Birmingham or Coventry). Clockface and fully direct. Even better, the two could meet either side of an island platform at New St each hour for say ten minutes and allow bidirectional interchange too, though obviously it would require quite a few other timetables adjusting to allow this to be pathed.

This sort of approach is widely used in Switzerland. To use a UK example, you could run an hourly train from Manchester Airport to Lancaster each hour, going to Barrow and Windermere alternating every two hours, but with a connecting train sat there waiting for the other one in each hour too. It's sort of like that for Barrow but it's not very consistent, and sometimes nothing from the south connects to the Windermere shuttle in the non-through hour nearest the through hour so it's a bit useless.

You could also swap them over in alternate hours, as used to be done in old XC and is (or was, in the first half of the 10s) extensively done on ICE routes in Germany.

For example

Hour 1
Manchester-Bournemouth
Newcastle-Plymouth

Hour 2
Manchester-Plymouth
Newcastle-Bournemouth

to give a wide range of through journeys.

Plus, as you imply, peak extras as short workings (where peak might include all day Saturdays) on sections such as Reading-Birmingham and Birmingham-Manchester to give a half-hourly service at busier times.
 

70014IronDuke

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As a trainspotter who joined the hobby within the last ten years - I think the railways are, on paper way more interesting now than ever! The UK railways have so many things that are hybrids of both old and new methods (e.g. signalling which seems to vary drastically from line to line in some areas, such as the signalling of all of the lines out of Shrewsbury). The advent of many new railway technologies has made the hobby as interesting as it's probably ever been IMO.

To me, the reason for perhaps a decline in trainspotting numbers could have something to do with bullying. I've never met a young trainspotter who hasn't been bullied at school for their hobby - I know myself and my mate certainly were. Why would anyone who might find this hobby incredibly interesting and fulfilling actually try it if they're worried about becoming a victim of this? Whilst we, as trainspotters, may have overcome and gotten used to this and think that it's worth it considering the hobby we spend so much time on, its perhaps easy to forget what's it's like starting out.

As per @yorksrob and I'm sure many others, I too am sorry to read this.

But I think this is worth a thread all on its own - I suspect many will miss this, buried as it is in this catch-all thread. Why don't you start a new thread, giving some detail (if it's not too painfull) of what happened in your experience? I'm sure it would attract significant attention and interest.

Excellent!



£500 please.
Oh dear. Petards got caught etc :)
 

Rail Quest

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As per @yorksrob and I'm sure many others, I too am sorry to read this.

But I think this is worth a thread all on its own - I suspect many will miss this, buried as it is in this catch-all thread. Why don't you start a new thread, giving some detail (if it's not too painfull) of what happened in your experience? I'm sure it would attract significant attention and interest.
Thanks and yeah, sounds like a good idea! Will do so later :)
 

The Ham

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Cars should be taxed at £800 per year - to understand why you'll need to read below.

They don't want to because the UK makes the experience stressful.

I'll give an example of how a train journey should happen, get on the Elizabeth Line, go to Paddington, change to an express (sit down doors close), get off at Reading walk over to platform 2 get in a train to Basingstoke wait 5 minutes for the train to go, get off at Basingstoke and change platforms then wait 3 minutes for the next train to arrive and be ready to leave.

However that was just shear dumb luck at Reading and Basingstoke, rather than having trains running at least every 20 minutes to ensure that was the norm (even every 30 minutes would be a significant step up for a lot of the network). If you have hourly services (which a lot of the network has) if a connection is missed that slows you down a LOT, if you've got more than one such connection you're not going to risk it.

Arguably the extra cost of running an extra service (where the line could allow it) so local lines were less likely to be so poorly connected (given the significant cost of maintaining a lightly used section of line) would be fairly limited compared to the overall cost of that line. Whilst it would ultimately probably increase the overall cost of the rail network, it could actually aid with local traffic congestion as going by rail becomes significantly more viable.

Not related to rail, but public transport, locally one of the next villagers over is about 3 miles away and the walking route is unsafe (as a road designer I know it is, if I tried designing a road with poor visibility at crossing, crossing which are the queuing side of a stop line, open drainage features across a footpath and paths which don't follow desire lines I'd get told to try again in no uncertain terms) so should be an ideal route to use the bus.

However, the bus stop is about a 15 minute walk from my house, the bus is hourly (so I really can't miss it, as I was wishing to use it for getting to/from work) and the times were bad for when I wished to use it (either arrive late or nearly an hour early or leave work early or fairly late), as such I cycled.

The reason being I could cycle in 20-25 minutes (including the time to get my bike out and secure it at work), which was about the time I'd need to leave home before the scheduled departure of the bus to ensure I didn't miss it. With the added bonus of being able to make that trip at any time I liked (and being a lot cheaper, even accounting for new lights, power for my lights, better waterproofs, and any other factor you could think of - maybe even a new bike after 3 years).

If the route has been every 30 minutes I may well have opted for the bus. That now frequent bus may not cover it's costs, but it's likely to remove more cars (and therefore reduce delays) than the impact it has by running.

There's a major junction which is near capacity (at peak times there can be noticeable delays), a more frequent bus isn't going to stop that from happening (as there's significant numbers of longer distance travellers) however it could mean that the delays are less of an issue
To the extent that it could mean that the very costly upgrades which would be needed to improve capacity wouldn't need to happen for a long time (if at all).

Yes the bus isn't going to replace all the traffic, but that's not what we need it to do, just be better so 20 fewer cars run through the junction (which is the equivalent of adding an extra second of time every 90 seconds in terms of junction capacity) in the peaks.

Whilst 91 seconds Vs 90 seconds doesn't sound a lot, most green lights at a signal junction are between 7 seconds and 35 seconds (or enough time for 3 to 15 cars to get through) and the next green light is 60 to 90 seconds since the start of the previous green light.

Therefore, for most people (on the arm the bus benefits) that's one less green light they have to wait for before they can get through in the peak hours. That's one minute saved.

Repeat that across 5 junctions (where you have to wait for more than one change of lights to get through) and your journey to and from work is about 25 to 30 hours less each year (assuming a 5 day working week and not being at work 31 days a year, however allowing for the fact that school holidays you get that benefit, if not more, already). That's not even allowing for junctions which are so congested that they cause delays at other junctions by the queues being back through the next junction (as reducing those queues can have a significant impact on delays).

24 (ish) people on a bus isn't a lot. When you're talking about trains (which often have over 120 seats) and the potential for reducing congestion is significant.

It's why those who like driving should actually favour government investment in public transport, at it would actually improve their journeys by car.

If you could pay to use a road which saved you 5 minutes each way each day for getting to work?

Whilst few car drivers would say £800 a year (£3.50 per day for 5 days a week of travel), that would be the total cost to run the UK rail network as it is (i.e. all £26bn) and not have any income. (hence my suggestion of a cat tax of £800 per year).

Yet an extra £31 per year (so about £1 per minute saved - which given the impact on a lot of car drivers of the rail strikes in longer journey times) would be the cost per car in the UK to provide an extra £1bn each year to run more bus and rail services. Given the large infrastructure maintenance costs, that would likely allow more than 1:52 (assuming half the money is for buses and half is for rail) more trains to run (and given we're talking about trying to maximise use of lines not running at capacity there shouldn't be as need for significant rail investment, however if there is that could be funded from the extra ticket income from those using the improved services).

You'd probably also need to look at running longer trains into major urban areas too so that the most cars benefited from the cost as well as increasing frequencies on lines with hourly service.

Actually by stopping all road building (including major improvements to junctions), you could potentially not have to pay any more in taxes than you already do. Unfortunately, the justification for public transport investment rarely can communicate these journey time savings to the wider population in a way which the people can relate.

Often they are an extra bus in their way, rather than the several cars which would otherwise be there instead. likewise they notice the minute at the bus stop and not the lower delays at the next junction (in that it's impossible to know about something you've not witnessed, i.e. how do you know what the delay would be if those 24 bus passengers were actually being transported in 20 cars without the buses not running or understanding how transport modelling works?).
 

Irascible

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Cars should be taxed at £800 per year - to understand why you'll need to read below.
I think that's more "congestion charges should be extortionate" along with "motorways and major cross country A roads should be toll roads". You're penalising people who don't have public transport to benefit people in a city there. Let people drive to their nearest public transport terminal at least.
 

eldomtom2

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Also pertinent is that in Japan there are steam hauled trains on the national network which can be used with a normal ticket, and indeed one can travel in normal service on the sort of lines which are heritage operations for us.
Yes, there are a few Jacobite-esque operations. Notably most of them are being discontinued.
I'm assuming you're referring to elements of anti-social behaviour? When I mentioned the stigma of rail enthusiasm in the UK I was referring more to the general attitude of mockery and derision the hobby draws in Britain, I definitely get the impression that's not the case in Japan, at least not to anywhere near the same degree.
I was primarily referring to anti-social behaviour - but the "anorak" stereotype absolutely exists in Japan, if in somewhat different form.
That's no doubt true but that isn't the same thing. Enthusiasm for contemporary railways is very definitely a mainstream thing in Japan, perhaps there are cultural reasons why they are less interested in the historical aspects?
I wonder whether the early nationalisation and standardisation of Japanese railways plays a part in this. There was never an equivalent to the huge variety of locomotives, rolling stock, architecture, operating practice, or culture that the Big Four - let alone the pre-grouping era - had here in Britain. Plus, it seems that kettle fans love nothing more than to argue which company had the best designers and locomotives, and it's somewhat difficult to do that when there's only one major railway company and a lot of stock and practice was imported - the Japanese government often hired railway experts from abroad, like Richard Trevithick's grandson who devised the first locomotive classification system for them.
This is definitely veering into making sweeping statements based on very little evidence. There definitely is historical interest in Japan - see for instance the "SL boom" of the 60s and 70s where large numbers of enthusiasts travelled to hunt down the ever-dwindling numbers of steam locos in revenue service.
Sam's Trains - whom RMWeb seems to absolutely loathe for some reason - is very popular with the younger crowd.
RMWeb has a deserved reputation for snobbishness. I don't go there much myself - it's not very good for historical research as asking for sources is considered an affront if the person you're asking to provide sources is respected enough.
 

The Ham

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I think that's more "congestion charges should be extortionate" along with "motorways and major cross country A roads should be toll roads". You're penalising people who don't have public transport to benefit people in a city there. Let people drive to their nearest public transport terminal at least.

As I said further down my post £800 would mean that we could run the railways without taking any income for that rate (although if you were to do that you could probably cut a lot of costs as your wouldn't be to sell or check tickets).

A more modest rate of £31 per year would get you an extra £1bn for public transport, for someone doing 6,200 miles a year that's an extra 5p in fuel duty per litre (assuming 15p per mile on fuel costs of 150p, so 10 miles per litre, which means the 0.5p per mile would be 5p per litre).

If that has been raised slowly over the last decade the extra cost would have been less noticeable.

Whist your point about rural transport is valid, only up to a point. Whist there's 10.5 million who live in a rural location a significant number of that are likely to live in places with a population of between 4,000 and 10,000 (government definition of rural as a place with a population of under 10,000).

Those are large enough populations to justify some form of public transport provision as long as they aren't too far away from each other and/or a larger settlement.

Whilst there are 6,116 places with a population of under 7,500, and if all 10.5 million people (risk population) lived in them that averages 1,720, that average soon ramps up when you consider that any place with sub 100 people is still counted in the numbers.and you exclude them and their populations (as whilst it's possible that there's over 1,000 such places they'll account for less that 100,000 of the people if they have up to 100 people each). Also is possible for those small places to still be urban (having become swallowed up by urban areas). Both of these factors very quickly being the average up, so that the numbers living

To give a real works example of this, there's four villages one with a population of 9,500, one with a population of 520, one with a population of 300, and one with a population of 600 then the average population is 2,730 (and that's just the three which boarder the larger place which have a large enough population to have a name and are counted in the census).
 

riceuten

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How, exactly, can or should railway enthusiasm "adapt"?
The problem is that there is a certain type of "rail enthusiast" who thinks one must stand at the end of a train platform with a spotter's book, corned beef sandwiches, and a flask of weak lemon drink if one is to be taken seriously as an enthusiast. Or that you need to stand in the wind and rain, chasing the last Deltic you've not seen yet, or "you're not a proper trainspotter". I remember also that taking photos wasn't as popular as train spotting, and that cameras (read: phones) were much less of a thing then than they are now. The internet has helped people track trains down, and plan (and replan!) journeys. In that respect, it's much easier - thankfully so.
 
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D6130

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The problem is that there is a certain type of "rail enthusiast" who thinks one must stand at the end of a train platform with a spotter's book and flask of weak lemon drink if one is to be taken seriously as an enthusiast.
It was a flask of weak milky tea in my day....or a can of Coke in Summer!
 

GatwickDepress

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The problem is that there is a certain type of "rail enthusiast" who thinks one must stand at the end of a train platform with a spotter's book and flask of weak lemon drink if one is to be taken seriously as an enthusiast.
I see you're also a keen practitioner of Train Ignoring.
 

317 forever

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The oldest trains should not be used on Sundays when the TOCs have enough spare more modern units.

For example, SWT should use as many 450s & 458s as possible, enabling the avoidance of 455s in service as far as the numbers will allow.
 

Topological

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The oldest trains should not be used on Sundays when the TOCs have enough spare more modern units.

For example, SWT should use as many 450s & 458s as possible, enabling the avoidance of 455s in service as far as the numbers will allow.
That could then allow all the old stock to go out on Mondays, perfect for people hunting down a particular example before withdrawal
 

popeter45

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powered bogies on passenger carriages are fine for comfort
would happily ride on a multible unit sleeper train such as a 80X or 769 if they enabled more options such as Glasgow/Edinburgh to Cardiff/Plymouth
 

778

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I don't know if this is controversial or not, but it was a missed opportunity that a lot more 172s were not built. All the 150s could have been withdrawn from service by now.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I don't know if this is controversial or not, but it was a missed opportunity that a lot more 172s were not built. All the 150s could have been withdrawn from service by now.
They nearly were. Prior to the North West Electrification Plan being drawn up and approved there was an alternative plan for a DMU order for both Northern and GW which was expected to be for 172s. The need to provide somewhere useful for 319s displaced by the Thameslink upgrade meant the DMU plan was eventually deemed unnecessary.
 

eldomtom2

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powered bogies on passenger carriages are fine for comfort
would happily ride on a multible unit sleeper train such as a 80X or 769 if they enabled more options such as Glasgow/Edinburgh to Cardiff/Plymouth
Japan runs sleeper EMUs - are there any other countries with sleeper MUs?
 

Peter Mugridge

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I was surprised the new Caledonian order was for LHCS rather than some sort of multiple unit, to be honest. You couldn't put diesel engines under the sleeper coaches but there are other options.
You wouldn't believe how many senior people - and how varied they are - who have told me that they wished Transport Scotland had gone with my proposals ( they're here on the forum somewhere from the time ) when they did the procurement! ( My proposals didn't have any underfloor motors or engines, by the way... )
 

Bletchleyite

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You wouldn't believe how many senior people - and how varied they are - who have told me that they wished Transport Scotland had gone with my proposals ( they're here on the forum somewhere from the time ) when they did the procurement! ( My proposals didn't have any underfloor motors or engines, by the way... )

You could have had underfloor engines, just not in the sleeper coaches. Given that they only run at low speed on diesel, 2 x 750hp engines as per the 80x, one under the seated coach and one under the lounge car, would have done it for a 5 car (24 or 26m) unit formed of 3 sleepers, one seated and a lounge (the latter two being the driving vehicles as neither needs to be full length). 110mph top speed and gangwayed (but only for staff).
 

Peter Mugridge

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You could have had underfloor engines, just not in the sleeper coaches. Given that they only run at low speed on diesel, 2 x 750hp engines as per the 80x, one under the seated coach and one under the lounge car, would have done it for a 5 car unit formed of 3 sleepers, one seated and a lounge (the latter being the driving vehicles).
True - in my proposals I had a diesel in at one end and an electric in at the other end - the diesel being next to the seated bit, of course. While I did my proposal as a series of 5 car units, that simply assumed the same split of services to all destinations as at the time ( which was preserved with the Mk 5 stock ); a series of 10 car units would be better although that would mean re-jigging the services a bit.
 

12LDA28C

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True - in my proposals I had a diesel in at one end and an electric in at the other end - the diesel being next to the seated bit, of course. While I did my proposal as a series of 5 car units, that simply assumed the same split of services to all destinations as at the time ( which was preserved with the Mk 5 stock ); a series of 10 car units would be better although that would mean re-jigging the services a bit.

Do people not attempt to sleep in the seated coach then?
 

eldomtom2

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You could have had underfloor engines, just not in the sleeper coaches. Given that they only run at low speed on diesel, 2 x 750hp engines as per the 80x, one under the seated coach and one under the lounge car, would have done it for a 5 car (24 or 26m) unit formed of 3 sleepers, one seated and a lounge (the latter two being the driving vehicles as neither needs to be full length). 110mph top speed and gangwayed (but only for staff).
Some further research has uncovered the use of sleeper DMUs in Japan for the luxury Twilight Express Mizukaze service - these are ten-car sets with the engines in the four non-sleeper cars.
 

Bletchleyite

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Do people not attempt to sleep in the seated coach then?

The seated coach is positioned in the market as competing with road coaches. Road coaches have engines under them (and are considerably noisier than a modern DMU like the 80x - indeed the 80x are noisier on electricity in some vehicles because of the transformer whine).
 

Topological

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May be controversial, but if an 80x had a bed on it I could easily sleep on it. The biggest problems for sleeping are the bright lights and regular announcements. People sleep through a lot more normally.

(I am assuming here that the 80x are not being run at 125mph and are therefore behaving more like they do in Wales)
 

LUYMun

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The single ticket pricing strategy (whereby halving the price of a return) makes little sense since most people lose out, bar the single travellers. It reinforces the preposterous idea that very few make in-and-out journeys on the same day.
 

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