Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Krokodil]

I can't see that happening. More likely is "guard only operation" a la DLR, where there would be a member of staff on board whose primary role was dealing with passengers and operating the doors, but they were also trained to drive the train at low speed on sight to a safe location in emergency. Such an approach could do a lot for the economics of rural branch lines, for instance.

As for PEDs, the DLR doesn't have them. They'd be needed for fully automatic operation but not for "GOO".

I know that Unattended Train Operation is not going to happen (and have listed the reasons why, plus the fact that the public wouldn't accept it). @Indigo Soup disagrees. Of course with GOO you still have a member of staff to pay, which reduces the savings you make.

 

[43066]

How come various systems have already been doing it for years then?

Which legacy mainline (as opposed to metro) rail systems have successfully converted to driverless operation worldwide, please?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Which legacy mainline (as opposed to metro) rail systems have successfully converted to driverless operation worldwide, please?

The 28,000 tonne freight trains in Australia - but those are a bit different because they don't run through a populated area and they've practically got the whole route to themselves as well...

 

[jfowkes]

The 28,000 tonne freight trains in Australia - but those are a bit different because they don't run through a populated area and they've practically got the whole route to themselves as well...

Nor of course do they carry any passengers, or even any dangerous cargo.

 

[Krokodil]

And when they derail, it's merely an inconvenience:

Clean-up underway in the Pilbara after Rio Tinto train derailment

Mining giant begins clearing rail line after more than twenty wagons were damaged in crash.

www.abc.net.au

(Article on the 2024 Rio Tinto derailment)

Very different to carrying passengers through populated areas

 

[Class15]

I agree the aventra livery looks absolutely awful on the electrostars specifically.

This is entirely subjective, and I actually prefer it to the original one! It’s a matter of opinion.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I know that Unattended Train Operation is not going to happen (and have listed the reasons why, plus the fact that the public wouldn't accept it). @Indigo Soup disagrees. Of course with GOO you still have a member of staff to pay, which reduces the savings you make.

I actually don't disagree. I think GOO is the likely outcome, and I don't think it's a desirable one. But I do think the more controlled rail environment makes it technically simpler to achieve than autonomous road vehicles.

 

[jfowkes]

But I do think the more controlled rail environment makes it technically simpler to achieve than autonomous road vehicles.

I agree with this as a technical principle, but also because the public is willing to accept a lower standard of risk for road vehicles.

 

[Meerkat]

I actually don't disagree. I think GOO is the likely outcome, and I don't think it's a desirable one. But I do think the more controlled rail environment makes it technically simpler to achieve than autonomous road vehicles.

I would prefer GOO to DOO - get the staff in with the passengers.
The IoW seems a good place to start, as a self contained system. Or Stourbridge as it’s unique already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The IoW seems a good place to start, as a self contained system. Or Stourbridge as it’s unique already.

Stourbridge would certainly be an easy testbed. No level crossings or interaction with other services or signalling. You could as easily convert it to an automated airport people mover.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Vanity project -- a station at Cliddesdon. Which would be on the other side of the main road from my house. It could connect Basingstoke and Alton and run to Reading, but that would be a great idea and coincidentally make it way easier for me to limp to the station.

More sensible option is the oft-promised station at Chineham, since we got Reading Green Park (which is fantastically out on a limb given that the railway line skirts that edge of Reading quite a way off the IDR) only a decade or so late. There's a major shopping centre there and there could be another Bicester Village if we played our cards right.

Gates at Mortimer and Bramley (Hampshire) would eliminate most fare-dodging on that line. I'm always surprised to see kids get on at Reading without having paid -- that's actually a feat of ingenuity given the ranks of barriers. Meanwhile they upgraded Reading West so gating the other two stations would close the loopholes there.

The thing that seems hardest to do at Slough station, meanwhile, is a bench at the Windsor bay platform. It can be up to twenty minutes wait there and I can only last ten on a good day, which is pretty much mutually exclusive with travelling to Slough and beyond. I wonder if it's completely illogical to wish for one there.

 

[Ken H]

Vanity project -- a station at Cliddesdon. Which would be on the other side of the main road from my house. It could connect Basingstoke and Alton and run to Reading, but that would be a great idea and coincidentally make it way easier for me to limp to the station.

More sensible option is the oft-promised station at Chineham, since we got Reading Green Park (which is fantastically out on a limb given that the railway line skirts that edge of Reading quite a way off the IDR) only a decade or so late. There's a major shopping centre there and there could be another Bicester Village if we played our cards right.

Gates at Mortimer and Bramley (Hampshire) would eliminate most fare-dodging on that line. I'm always surprised to see kids get on at Reading without having paid -- that's actually a feat of ingenuity given the ranks of barriers. Meanwhile they upgraded Reading West so gating the other two stations would close the loopholes there.

The thing that seems hardest to do at Slough station, meanwhile, is a bench at the Windsor bay platform. It can be up to twenty minutes wait there and I can only last ten on a good day, which is pretty much mutually exclusive with travelling to Slough and beyond. I wonder if it's completely illogical to wish for one there.

I'm with you on benches. Never enough. A relative finds a 10 minute stand unbearable too. The number of people you see perched on bridge foundations and the like shows the demand.

 

[Class450/4DES]

It could connect Basingstoke and Alton and run to Reading

Would GWR or SWR operate the service? If its GWR, it would be an strange site to see Turbos at Alton. Although it would be useful and provide people in the Lasham area with public transport since the 13 bus was moved to go via Hook.

 

[Class15]

Diesel freight trains should be banned from the North London line.

 

[jfowkes]

Diesel freight trains should be banned from the North London line.

I'd go further: unless the destination or origin is a place within London, freight trains shouldn't be on the NLL (or anywhere else in London, moving people around is more important).

I asked RTT for all freight paths passing through Canonbury today, there were 130 of them. Of those, I applied a "do I reckon it starts or finishes in London or not" filter and there were 54, or 44%.
Of the services that actually ran today, 12 of 48 met the London criterion (25%).

Was this scientific? No. Is it useful? Also no. Was it worth my time? Again, no. I feel I have met the "without a firm foundation in logic" standard for the thread.

 

[Class15]

I'd go further: unless the destination or origin is a place within London, freight trains shouldn't be on the NLL (or anywhere else in London, moving people around is more important).

I asked RTT for all freight paths passing through Canonbury today, there were 130 of them. Of those, I applied a "do I reckon it starts or finishes in London or not" filter and there were 54, or 44%.
Of the services that actually ran today, 12 of 48 met the London criterion (25%).

Was this scientific? No. Is it useful? Also no. Was it worth my time? Again, no. I feel I have met the "without a firm foundation in logic" standard for the thread.

This doesn’t help really. Any freight via Ely has to be diesel hauled and the routing via Camden Road and Stratford allows electric haulage to be used. However, anything going to Lawley Street, Hams Hall and so on can’t use electric traction anyway. These should not be using the NLL, I agree on that. But stuff going to Trafford Park, Garston, Ditton and Coatbridge can be kept on the NLL so they can continue to use electric traction.

 

[The Ham]

Would GWR or SWR operate the service? If its GWR, it would be an strange site to see Turbos at Alton. Although it would be useful and provide people in the Lasham area with public transport since the 13 bus was moved to go via Hook.

Alternatively it be run by XC or TfL ( Elizabeth Line).

 

[BazingaTribe]

Would GWR or SWR operate the service? If its GWR, it would be an strange site to see Turbos at Alton. Although it would be useful and provide people in the Lasham area with public transport since the 13 bus was moved to go via Hook.

Sadly it's pie in the sky because it would involve bulldozing through Basingstoke and the surrounding area which is a fine piece of countryside bordering the South Downs. But SWR do the lines around Aldershot that terminate at Alton (and run a Salisbury service through Basingstoke into Reading at the weekends that terninates at platform 2 where GWR trains normally come in), so it would probably link up that network -- and with GBR on the horizon as a fully public railway it may be academic anyway. I was thinking a bit selfishly as my job sometimes involves going to Aldershot and at the moment it's a bit of the old two sides of a triangle job to get there. (And splitting at Farnborough means I have to sit on Brookwood station to guarantee that I get the right train, which in the winter months makes me think of When the Wind Blows crossed with Neuromancer -- a post-apocalyptic southern English nightmare with the public information system tuned to a dead channel.)

But as I said, it would basically mean boring through a lot of lovely countryside, so not gonna happen.

 

[daodao]

Vanity project -- a station at Cliddesdon. Which would be on the other side of the main road from my house. It could connect Basingstoke and Alton and run to Reading, but that would be a great idea and coincidentally make it way easier for me to limp to the station.

Cliddesden station was a single platform station on the former Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway, opened in 1901 by the London and South Western Railway (LSWR). It never attracted much business and was closed at the War Office's behest in 1917 to recover track for re-laying in France during WW1.

After WW1, the LSWR and then the Southern Railway initially resisted pressure to reopen this uneconomic line, but at Westminster's behest it was reopened in 1924. Due to worsening unprofitability, the line was closed to passengers in 1932, with limited goods services continuing until 1936.

A few such basket case lines still exist today. One is the West Highland extension to Mallaig, which was built due to government pressure and never made a profit even in the years before WW1, but is still extant with a significant government subsidy required to keep it open. Should it not be closed too?

 

[yorksrob]

Cliddesden station was a single platform station on the former Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway, opened in 1901 by the London and South Western Railway (LSWR). It never attracted much business and was closed at the War Office's behest in 1917 to recover track for re-laying in France during WW1.

After WW1, the LSWR and then the Southern Railway initially resisted pressure to reopen this uneconomic line, but at Westminster's behest it was reopened in 1924. Due to worsening unprofitability, the line was closed to passengers in 1932, with limited goods services continuing until 1936.

A few such basket case lines still exist today. One is the West Highland extension to Mallaig, which was built due to government pressure and never made a profit even in the years before WW1, but is still extant with a significant government subsidy required to keep it open. Should it not be closed too?

Is there any evidence to suggest that Mallaig services are lightly used ?

If not, I wouldn't class it as a "basket case" service.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Is there any evidence to suggest that Mallaig services are lightly used ?

If not, I wouldn't class it as a "basket case" service.

They are in fact incredibly busy over summer, which more than pays to keep the line open. As it has ERTB signalling it's comparatively cheap to run, too.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Sadly it's pie in the sky because it would involve bulldozing through Basingstoke and the surrounding area which is a fine piece of countryside bordering the South Downs. But SWR do the lines around Aldershot that terminate at Alton (and run a Salisbury service through Basingstoke into Reading at the weekends that terninates at platform 2 where GWR trains normally come in), so it would probably link up that network -- and with GBR on the horizon as a fully public railway it may be academic anyway. I was thinking a bit selfishly as my job sometimes involves going to Aldershot and at the moment it's a bit of the old two sides of a triangle job to get there. (And splitting at Farnborough means I have to sit on Brookwood station to guarantee that I get the right train, which in the winter months makes me think of When the Wind Blows crossed with Neuromancer -- a post-apocalyptic southern English nightmare with the public information system tuned to a dead channel.)

But as I said, it would basically mean boring through a lot of lovely countryside, so not gonna happen.

Yeah, it's a shame. Railway lines should of never closed. The Watercress Line / Alton Line used to provide a good diversion for SWML services.

 

[yorksrob]

They are in fact incredibly busy over summer, which more than pays to keep the line open. As it has ERTB signalling it's comparatively cheap to run, too.

Much as I suspected !

 

[Sad Sprinter]

MY new opinion: HS1 should have continued to North Pole depot. Aside from the fact that I'd still be able to see the Eurostars on the approach to Paddington (much loved as a child), it would have linked Heathrow to HS1 and acted as a landing stage for a line further north. I believe ARUP proposed their own routing for HS2, would have been a more natural continuation of HS1 if it finished further west.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Cliddesden station was a single platform station on the former Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway, opened in 1901 by the London and South Western Railway (LSWR). It never attracted much business and was closed at the War Office's behest in 1917 to recover track for re-laying in France during WW1.

After WW1, the LSWR and then the Southern Railway initially resisted pressure to reopen this uneconomic line, but at Westminster's behest it was reopened in 1924. Due to worsening unprofitability, the line was closed to passengers in 1932, with limited goods services continuing until 1936.

A few such basket case lines still exist today. One is the West Highland extension to Mallaig, which was built due to government pressure and never made a profit even in the years before WW1, but is still extant with a significant government subsidy required to keep it open. Should it not be closed too?

I wasn't aware of that -- where did the track run through Basingstoke? I imagine that post-war 'new town' status meant the track bed must have long since vanished, but if it hadn't closed and we hadn't had the town planners in, then there would still be a viable route through the town.

Yeah, it's a shame. Railway lines should of never closed. The Watercress Line / Alton Line used to provide a good diversion for SWML services.

It's one of those things that is frustrating from a transport point of view but reopening as a main line today would trigger a lot of concern over environmental heritage. At least it was preserved as a heritage railway. It was one of the first trips my late husband and I went on as a 'meet the parents' date with my folks, and my nephews used to go on it a lot when they were small and still loved Thomas the Tank Engine.

I might try it again in the summer (going Tube-diving on my next week off in early Feb so as to avoid the weekend and half term pandemonium). It's a bit awkward to get to Alton as I don't drive, but probably not impossible.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any evidence to suggest that Mallaig services are lightly used ?

If not, I wouldn't class it as a "basket case" service.

There’s about 140,000 single passenger trips on the W Highland extenson each year. Whether that includes the Jacobite or not is unclear. Assuming not, that’s 400 people per day / 50 people per train on average through the year (that’s not 50 people end to end, albeit about 70% of them will be). Clearly they will be busier in the Easter - October period than the other half of the year.

The average revenue per passenger on Scotrail servcies on the line will be (educated guess) about £6, ie total revenue of about £900k. The marginal operating cost just for the train operator will be several multiples of that. It is clear that the busy trains in summer do not ‘pay for‘ the service in total, that’s a fact.

I offer no opinon on whether 400 people a day counts as lightly used or not, nor whether the costs being several multiples of income make it a basket case. It is a beautiful line, though, and does bring in some tourists (although not many, as the numbers show) and offers a service to locals. Albeit I suspect many locals who don‘t have access to a car will use the cheaper and quicker parallel bus service.

 

[yorksrob]

There’s about 140,000 single passenger trips on the W Highland extenson each year. Whether that includes the Jacobite or not is unclear. Assuming not, that’s 400 people per day / 50 people per train on average through the year (that’s not 50 people end to end, albeit about 70% of them will be). Clearly they will be busier in the Easter - October period than the other half of the year.

The average revenue per passenger on Scotrail servcies on the line will be (educated guess) about £6, ie total revenue of about £900k. The marginal operating cost just for the train operator will be several multiples of that. It is clear that the busy trains in summer do not ‘pay for‘ the service in total, that’s a fact.

I offer no opinon on whether 400 people a day counts as lightly used or not, nor whether the costs being several multiples of income make it a basket case. It is a beautiful line, though, and does bring in some tourists (although not many, as the numbers show) and offers a service to locals. Albeit I suspect many locals who don‘t have access to a car will use the cheaper and quicker parallel bus service.

Many thanks for the information.

Given the figures quoted, I would definitely not class the line as a basket case.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Albeit I suspect many locals who don‘t have access to a car will use the cheaper and quicker parallel bus service.

I suspect the number of locals without access to a car is (as in most of rural Scotland) not significantly different from zero.

 

[NorthKent1989]

MY new opinion: HS1 should have continued to North Pole depot. Aside from the fact that I'd still be able to see the Eurostars on the approach to Paddington (much loved as a child), it would have linked Heathrow to HS1 and acted as a landing stage for a line further north. I believe ARUP proposed their own routing for HS2, would have been a more natural continuation of HS1 if it finished further west.

You mean have HS1 extended to Heathrow? Yes I like this, linking Kent to Heathrow would have been good

 

[43096]

I'd go further: unless the destination or origin is a place within London, freight trains shouldn't be on the NLL (or anywhere else in London, moving people around is more important).

I asked RTT for all freight paths passing through Canonbury today, there were 130 of them. Of those, I applied a "do I reckon it starts or finishes in London or not" filter and there were 54, or 44%.
Of the services that actually ran today, 12 of 48 met the London criterion (25%).

Was this scientific? No. Is it useful? Also no. Was it worth my time? Again, no. I feel I have met the "without a firm foundation in logic" standard for the thread.

Disagree. Subsidised passenger services should be removed to make paths for freight when needed.