Conwy Valley line timetable

[VideozVideoz]

This will be a quick discussion I guess… In the current timetable, the last train from Llandudno arrives into Blaenau at 2027 and the last return journey supposedly leaves at the same time. This is the same train. So why has no time been allowed for the driver / conductor to swap ends? Admittedly, the inbound train will likely arrive early but that’s beside the point. Any ideas / views? Seems odd to me

 

[Peterthegreat]

This will be a quick discussion I guess… In the current timetable, the last train from Llandudno arrives into Blaenau at 2027 and the last return journey supposedly leaves at the same time. This is the same train. So why has no time been allowed for the driver / conductor to swap ends? Admittedly, the inbound train will likely arrive early but that’s beside the point. Any ideas / views? Seems odd to me

The working timetable arrival is 20.24.

 

[Gloster]

The first one does the same thing: 06.24 in and out. It is probably a discreet way of massaging the punctuality figures.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Regardless of the WTT, I still would have expected a smallish gap between arrival and departure and not relying on the fact the train should arrive a few mins early. No time for a comfort break even if it arrived at 2024

 

[geoffk]

Regardless of the WTT, I still would have expected a smallish gap between arrival and departure and not relying on the fact the train should arrive a few mins early. No time for a comfort break even if it arrived at 2024

Surprised that there are peak fares morning and afternoon on a route like this with no large commuter flows. The Cambrian and even the HoW line has them too - I can understand having them between Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surprised that there are peak fares morning and afternoon on a route like this with no large commuter flows.

Are there any "Off Peak" fares available between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog (or intermediately) unless you're part of a "small group" of 3 - 9 people?

 

[Starmill]

Regardless of the WTT, I still would have expected a smallish gap between arrival and departure and not relying on the fact the train should arrive a few mins early

Trains should arrive at their working timetable times. A gap between the passenger time of arrival and departure isn't necessary - why would it be?

Unless of course your criticism is based around the practice of putting allowances in or varying the passenger timing right at the end of the route, in order to achieve better PPM statistics. In which case, I'd agree with the suggestion that this isn't an appropriate reason for doing it at all. Unfortunately the practice is still common. Journey times should absolutely not be being artificially extended, even by 2-3 minutes, if the only reason for doing it is that it will improve PPM figures.

Time for a comfort break isn't allowed during turnarounds, only enough to change ends and ensure cabs are correctly set up. Time for toilet breaks is allowed during formal breaks in work, usually called PNBs. If there's a need for an additional short toilet break out of course this is also fine and usually achieved by advising the signaller and control that departure will be delayed by 2-3 minutes, but mostly this isn't needed.

No time for a comfort break even if it arrived at 2024

 

[Gloster]

Wasn’t there a situation at Wrexham Central where the trains departed one minute before they arrived there? (TfW make finding timetables very hard.)

 

[Starmill]

Wasn’t there a situation at Wrexham Central where the trains departed one minute before they arrived there? (TfW make finding timetables very hard.)

Yes, precisely. But nobody would be staying on the train and going back so it really shouldn't matter.

 

[barbette165]

There was also the situation where Chiltern trains that terminated at Birmingham Snow Hill appeared to get overtaken in Snow Hill tunnel by London Midland / West Midland Railway trains that departed Moor Street later but arrived in Snow Hill earlier.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surprised that there are peak fares morning and afternoon on a route like this with no large commuter flows. The Cambrian and even the HoW line has them too - I can understand having them between Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

You'd be surprised how many people commute from (say) Machynlleth to Shrewsbury, plus there are a lot of students from Caersws eastwards that attend college there.

 

[Llanigraham]

Trains should arrive at their working timetable times. A gap between the passenger time of arrival and departure isn't necessary - why would it be?

Unless of course your criticism is based around the practice of putting allowances in or varying the passenger timing right at the end of the route, in order to achieve better PPM statistics. In which case, I'd agree with the suggestion that this isn't an appropriate reason for doing it at all. Unfortunately the practice is still common. Journey times should absolutely not be being artificially extended, even by 2-3 minutes, if the only reason for doing it is that it will improve PPM figures.

Time for a comfort break isn't allowed during turnarounds, only enough to change ends and ensure cabs are correctly set up. Time for toilet breaks is allowed during formal breaks in work, usually called PNBs. If there's a need for an additional short toilet break out of course this is also fine and usually achieved by advising the signaller and control that departure will be delayed by 2-3 minutes, but mostly this isn't needed.

And there aren't any toliets on the station at Blaenau Ffest for a PNB.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Unless of course your criticism is based around the practice of putting allowances in or varying the passenger timing right at the end of the route, in order to achieve better PPM statistics. In which case, I'd agree with the suggestion that this isn't an appropriate reason for doing it at all. Unfortunately the practice is still common. Journey times should absolutely not be being artificially extended, even by 2-3 minutes, if the only reason for doing it is that it will improve PPM figures.

Well, yes I spose I am making a point around the padding at the end of the journey to fiddle performance figures. It’s not on.

Wasn’t there a situation at Wrexham Central where the trains departed one minute before they arrived there? (TfW make finding timetables very hard.)

Haha that sounds like a classic to me. Never spotted that one before

 

[Starmill]

Well, yes I spose I am making a point around the padding at the end of the journey to fiddle performance figures. It’s not on.

There may sometimes be legitimate reasons for the allowances shortly before the end of the journey or an offset passenger time, but I think that it's clear doing it just because you can absolutely isn't on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There may sometimes be legitimate reasons for the allowances shortly before the end of the journey or an offset passenger time, but I think that it's clear doing it just because you can absolutely isn't on.

Agreed. The Wrexham Central example of this (where arrivals are after the same unit departs back) is essentially fraudulent.

Edit: because it is used to get out of paying Delay Repay, and is thus benefitting financially through dishonesty.

 

[Kite159]

The Manchester trains used to have around 10 minutes of padding between Stockport & Manchester, so much that some journey planners suggested changing at Stockport to board a nonstop Northern service 6 minutes after the TfW service as that "overtook" the TfW service by the public timetable.

 

[VideozVideoz]

The Manchester trains used to have around 10 minutes of padding between Stockport & Manchester, so much that some journey planners suggested changing at Stockport to board a nonstop Northern service 6 minutes after the TfW service as that "overtook" the TfW service by the public timetable.

This is just barmy. Just goes to show, this fiddling of the system can actually cause problems down the line with journey planning.

 

[Sheridan]

I always assumed (but have no solid evidence, I’ve not looked at it) that this is to do with timings at Llandudno Junction. With a service once every three hours, there are no real time pressures and therefore no obvious reason to squeeze timings at Blaenau (after all it sits in Llandudno for a decent chunk of time) but I assume the service has to cross over all lines when leaving Llandudno Junction (if it goes off p1) and often crosses back over to p3 on the way back, so perhaps to fit in with these paths the timings at the top have to be constrained.

And there aren't any toliets on the station at Blaenau Ffest for a PNB.

I understand that short rest breaks can be taken at Blaenau, but not main breaks. Not sure if this is to do with the provision of toilet facilities or not.

 

[geoffk]

I always assumed (but have no solid evidence, I’ve not looked at it) that this is to do with timings at Llandudno Junction. With a service once every three hours, there are no real time pressures and therefore no obvious reason to squeeze timings at Blaenau (after all it sits in Llandudno for a decent chunk of time) but I assume the service has to cross over all lines when leaving Llandudno Junction (if it goes off p1) and often crosses back over to p3 on the way back, so perhaps to fit in with these paths the timings at the top have to be constrained.



I understand that short rest breaks can be taken at Blaenau, but not main breaks. Not sure if this is to do with the provision of toilet facilities or not.

Doesn't the on-train toilet count?

 

[Sheridan]

Doesn't the on-train toilet count?

I don’t know personally, and I’m not sure if that affects which locations can be used for different kinds of breaks. There is a building at Blaenau with some facilities but I’m not aware if a working toilet is one of them.

 

[Watershed]

The minimum reversal and turnround for 15x stock is generally 3 mins (it's higher for some TOCs, stations and Network Rail routes). If a single unit, with a crew who are on the ball, then it can be done in just over 2 mins. But the turnround allowance is really just there to allow enough time for the actual process of reversing, not anything beyond that.

There are other limits, e.g. maximum continuous driving time (the time between taking charge of a train or mobilising it, and being relieved by another driver or immobilising it), which afford reasonable opportunities to go to the facilities.

Whether on-train facilities are acceptable to reset continuous driving time depends on the operator in question and the agreements they have with ASLEF.

 

[Gathursty]

I always assumed (but have no solid evidence, I’ve not looked at it) that this is to do with timings at Llandudno Junction. With a service once every three hours, there are no real time pressures and therefore no obvious reason to squeeze timings at Blaenau (after all it sits in Llandudno for a decent chunk of time) but I assume the service has to cross over all lines when leaving Llandudno Junction (if it goes off p1) and often crosses back over to p3 on the way back, so perhaps to fit in with these paths the timings at the top have to be constrained.



I understand that short rest breaks can be taken at Blaenau, but not main breaks. Not sure if this is to do with the provision of toilet facilities or not.

The North Wales Coast Line isn't the busiest unless I'm mistaken.
Occasional Avanti/freight?
Hourly ATW to Holyhead
Hourly ATW to Llandudno.

 

[Sheridan]

The North Wales Coast Line isn't the busiest unless I'm mistaken.
Occasional Avanti/freight?
Hourly ATW to Holyhead
Hourly ATW to Llandudno.

It’s certainly not busy, but it doesn’t have a huge capacity (more than enough for current needs though) so I assume these things have to be worked out and agreed with Network Rail.

The minimum reversal and turnround for 15x stock is generally 3 mins (it's higher for some TOCs, stations and Network Rail routes). If a single unit, with a crew who are on the ball, then it can be done in just over 2 mins. But the turnround allowance is really just there to allow enough time for the actual process of reversing, not anything beyond that.

The sectional appendix says the following: ‘The driver of a train which does not require to be shunted clear of the single line at Blaenau Ffestiniog is authorised to return to Llanrwst signal box without the token being passed through a token instrument. To do this the authority of the signaller at Llanrwst signal box must be obtained. However, if telephone communication is not available in these circumstances then trains are authorised to return from Blaenau Ffestiniog but the driver must approach the home signal for Llanrwst signal box cautiously.’

In normal conditions (i.e. GSM-R working) this means the driver should phone the signaller before returning, which can add 30 seconds or so.

 

[Techniquest]

The Manchester trains used to have around 10 minutes of padding between Stockport & Manchester, so much that some journey planners suggested changing at Stockport to board a nonstop Northern service 6 minutes after the TfW service as that "overtook" the TfW service by the public timetable.

Oh yes I remember this, it was stupid. I have admittedly relied on this 'slack' time before now though! Multiple months ago, I had a 175 running 20-odd late out of Hereford and I had some tight connections to make everything work on a 769 hunt. Fortunately, the slack in the timetable came in handy and quite a few minutes were clawed back in the end. I think it was still around 12 minutes late, maybe 14, but it meant in combination with a speed-walk to Salford Central I even had enough time to go the wrong way. The 769 got fitted in, as did the other one I went after, but the point here is for once the slack came in useful!

The inflated journey time thing used to be done on what was LM as well. Journey planners would often tell you to get off the 0849 Hereford to Birmingham New Street at University for a following CrossCity line train several minutes behind, as that one would arrive in Birmingham earlier than the train from Hereford. Of course, this was not actually the case, and quite honestly it was more likely the train from Hereford would be late enough to be stuck behind that train anyway!

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Are there any "Off Peak" fares available between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog (or intermediately) unless you're part of a "small group" of 3 - 9 people?

Some rail cards will not be valid at times. There isn't a simple answer since different cards have different restrictions.

 

[Starmill]

Some rail cards will not be valid at times. There isn't a simple answer since different cards have different restrictions.

Indeed. Free tickets for accompanied 11-15 year olds are also time restricted.