Cost of Infrastructure in the UK compared with elsewhere

[ABB125]

Inspired by this thread, I thought I'd create one about infrastructure in general in the UK.

Why is high speed rail in the UK so expensive to construct?

From reading a few blogs and watching some Youtube videos, one thing I have learnt is that high speed rail in the UK is very expensive compared to other developed countries. From example one video suggested high speed rail in the UK is almost ten times more expensive to build per kilometre than...

railforums.co.uk

Everything seems to cost more here than in other countries. For example, Hindhead tunnel on the A3, which opened in 2011, cost £371 million (which I assume is at 2005ish prices, which is when the planning was done. Being generous and assuming 2010 prices, this is just under £500 million today, according to the Bank of England's inflation calculator) for about 4 miles of 2-lane dual carriageway, of which a bit over 1 mile is in tunnel. Compare this to Norway, a country well-known for its cheapness and low standards (or not!), where a 6 mile section of 2-lane dual carriageway, of which a bit under 4 miles will be in tunnel, is about to have the contract signed to be built for about £247 million (see here). So a new road in Norway, 50% longer and about 350% more tunnel, is costing half as much as in the UK. Why?

I'm sure there are other examples in all sorts of different sectors, this is just one I've come across. What is it about the UK that makes things so expensive?

[end rant]

 

[birchesgreen]

Because this country is one of the most corrupt in the world.

 

[gg1]

I'd like to know the answer to that one too.


One recent example I read about is improvements to Birchley Island in Oldbury (just off M5 j2) essentially turning a regular (though rather large and very busy) island into a hamburger island. The bill is a jaw dropping £30 million.

 

[Grimsby town]

Because this country is one of the most corrupt in the world.

Are you being serious? I agree the country has become more corrupt under the current government but even then the UK is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

 

[ABB125]

Are you being serious? I agree the country has become more corrupt under the current government but even then the UK is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

I think that some of the people in power could at best be described as "wilfully ignorant" about a few things...



Another road-based example, the Stonehenge tunnel and related works. About 8 miles of dual carriageway, with a 2 mile bored tunnel, yours for a snip at £1.7 billion. Compare that with proposals from 2002, including a slightly shorter tunnel, estimated at £183 million. I haven't found any comparable projects in Europe to compare with unfortunately.

 

[gswindale]

How does the ground in Norway compare to that for the Hindhead tunnel?

The geology of the area will have an impact - I believe this is part of the reason that the London Underground is mostly north of the river.

 

[ABB125]

How does the ground in Norway compare to that for the Hindhead tunnel?

No idea! This is what the area in Norway looks like: 1 Fv43

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According to the British Geological Survey's online map, the Hindhead area is made up of this:

Lower Greensand Group - Sandstone And Mudstone. Sedimentary Bedrock formed approximately 100 to 125 million years ago in the Cretaceous Period. Local environment previously dominated by shallow seas.

Setting: shallow seas. These rocks were formed in shallow seas with mainly siliciclastic sediments (comprising of fragments or clasts of silicate minerals) deposited as mud, silt, sand and gravel.

There doesn't appear to be any data for the relevant area on the equivalent Norwegian map. Here's a link to the map in case I've missed anything. http://geo.ngu.no/kart/berggrunn_mobil/?lang=eng
Lyngdal is roughly the right area.

 

[birchesgreen]

Are you being serious? I agree the country has become more corrupt under the current government but even then the UK is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

I am being very serious, i used to think that good old Blighty was a fairer more enlightened place than the sort of corrupt Banana republic the media like to gleefully report on abroad but at least the corruption there is in the open. Here it is hidden away or passes without comment by a pliant and equally corrupt media. Look at the example of Dido Harding.

 

[Falcon1200]

i used to think that good old Blighty was a fairer more enlightened place than the sort of corrupt Banana republic the media like to gleefully report on abroad but at least the corruption there is in the open. Here it is hidden away or passes without comment by a pliant and equally corrupt media. Look at the example of Dido Harding.

If the country was corrupt as you think, with a 'pliant and equally corrupt media', we would not know anything about Dido Harding (or Messrs Cummings, Hancock etc) because it would all be covered up !

 

[birchesgreen]

If the country was corrupt as you think, with a 'pliant and equally corrupt media', we would not know anything about Dido Harding (or Messrs Cummings, Hancock etc) because it would all be covered up !

And what has happened about it? NOTHING.

Which is the point.

 

[gysev]

To give an idea from Belgium: In 2020, the new connection between Anderlecht and Brussels-Midi opened. This was an investment of 15 million Euro (about £12,8 million). The work included 3 km double track with electrification (on an existing formation), adapting a junction (including signalling) and a flyover.

 

[HSTEd]

The Ceneri base tunnel - twin track 250km/h tunnel.

15.4km route length, completed in 2020 for cost of SFr 3.6bn - which is about £2.85bn - and that was a dramatic cost overrun!

You won't get much for that in the UK.

 

[ABB125]

To give an idea from Belgium: In 2020, the new connection between Anderlecht and Brussels-Midi opened. This was an investment of 15 million Euro (about £12,8 million). The work included 3 km double track with electrification (on an existing formation), adapting a junction (including signalling) and a flyover.

The Ceneri base tunnel - twin track 250km/h tunnel.

15.4km route length, completed in 2020 for cost of SFr 3.6bn - which is about £2.85bn - and that was a dramatic cost overrun!

You won't get much for that in the UK.

Both good examples - so why can't it be done in Britain? It's incredibly frustrating sometimes seeing these projects in other countries.

 

[gswindale]

Over in Wales, the dualling of the A465 from Gilwern to Bryn Mawr is stated as being 8km at £336million ( I assume 2014 prices as that was when the work commenced - should be nearly finished now). (https://gov.wales/a465-gilwern-brynmawr-overview)

The section from Dowlais Top to Hirwaun is quoted as being £590 million for 17.7km based on 2019 prices. (https://gov.wales/a465-section-5-and-6-dowlais-top-hirwaun-overview)

Now even if we're comparing on the same base price, then 8km at £336m does not seem as good value as 17.7km at £590m, but when you look into the details of the works involved, it appears that there are more complicated matters that need solving in the shorter stretch of dualling.

You also have to remember that other countries seem to have a more thought out infrastructure upgrade plan than we do - for some reason ours seems to be incredibly political and so companies reasonably (in my view) charge what they can "get away with" as if there is a change of government, there may be no work forthcoming for them for some time.

 

[Meerkat]

Both good examples - so why can't it be done in Britain? It's incredibly frustrating sometimes seeing these projects in other countries.

Do we know that the declared costs are comparable in what they include?

 

[ABB125]

No idea, I don't expect that's a very easy thing to find out unfortunately.

 

[DarloRich]

paging @Bald Rick

I am sorry to say I no longer have the patience to try and explain/discuss this with posters here. It would help if we started with a comparison of apples and apples!

 

[Western Lord]

Of course, the Germans do it better, like Berlin Brandenburg Airport.......

 

[Bald Rick]

paging @Bald Rick

Thanks

Using the Hindhead / Norway example, the cost quoted for Norway is the construction contract. The Hindhead cost was for everything. Non-construction costs can be as much again for a job like this, especially when you are doing major construction in a Special Protected Area, adjacent to a Site of Special Scientific Interest, in a part of the world that has very, very high property prices.

The price basis also makes a big difference for any project, as do exchange rates and accounting treatment (of things like tax).

When you look in detail at comparative costs of tunnelling around the world, in detail (not publicly available), there is little difference on a like for like basis.

 

[ABB125]

Of course, the Germans do it better, like Berlin Brandenburg Airport.......

No-one's claiming that things are always done better elsewhere, as this example clearly shows. An excellent lesson in how not to build an airport!

 

[DarloRich]

Thanks

Using the Hindhead / Norway example, the cost quoted for Norway is the construction contract. The Hindhead cost was for everything. Non-construction costs can be as much again for a job like this, especially when you are doing major construction in a Special Protected Area, adjacent to a Site of Special Scientific Interest, in a part of the world that has very, very high property prices.

The price basis also makes a big difference for any project, as do exchange rates and accounting treatment (of things like tax).

When you look in detail at comparative costs of tunnelling around the world, in detail (not publicly available), there is little difference on a like for like basis.

Apologies - you are more patient than me It frustrates the hell out of me how these issues are presented and debated.

Another road-based example, the Stonehenge tunnel and related works. About 8 miles of dual carriageway, with a 2 mile bored tunnel, yours for a snip at £1.7 billion

This is one of the worst examples of that. A dual tunnel under a top rank world heritage site, in an affluent rural area, with interesting geology, a raft of anti protestors happy to shout and pork barrelling of the highest order to get something approved.

BTW that £1.7bn aint just for a tunnel. It is for a programme of 12/13 improvements along an 8 miles route

 

[ABB125]

BTW that £1.7bn aint just for a tunnel. It is for a programme of 12/13 improvements along an 8 miles route

I appreciate that, but it's still rather expensive. Especially compared to the cost estimate of the previous tunnel proposal from 2002.
Which brings me on to construction inflation: why is it so much higher that general inflation? Back in the mid 1990s there was a plan to build a new dual carriageway past where I live, about 12 miles or so in total, at a cost of around £60 million. It wasn't built. Currently, proposals are being developed for one section to be built, about 2.5 miles, at a cost of around £200 million. Adjusting for inflation, that £60 million comes to about £125 million. So why does a project so much shorter cost so much more?

 

[Bald Rick]

So why does a project so much shorter cost so much more?

1) is it exactly the same project?

2) construction inflation is more, because it is heavily labour dependent, and labour costs have risen much more than inflation (especially in construction).

 

[Meerkat]

1) is it exactly the same project?

2) construction inflation is more, because it is heavily labour dependent, and labour costs have risen much more than inflation (especially in construction).

How much impact has making (what seems to me) much greater effort not to kill the workforce had on prices?
And haven’t the environmental hoops that need jumping through gone from not enough to verging on the ridiculous?
I read some of the applications and the list of consultants reports about ever more obscure matters is astonishing!

 

[Bald Rick]

And haven’t the environmental hoops that need jumping through gone from not enough to verging on the ridiculous?

The ‘hoops’ haven’t changed. However the standard of evidence required gets ever higher, as objectors are better informed, better funded, and better able to make a case ‘against’.

On your other point, yes more effort has gone into workforce safety - more training, better kit, and (frankly) better pay meaning no need to work 70 hours to make a living.

 

[ABB125]

1) is it exactly the same project?

Not exactly the same, but the same general alignment. Probably a few hundred metres further south, due to housing development. Due to various delays, the route options consultation still hasn't happened yet, so I may be completely wrong! The £200 million figure comes from various pieces of documentation about the project (something to do with a funding request from the government's large local major project fund, I think), though obviously more detailed information about routeing etc might lower (or increase!) the cost. They really need to get a move on with the consultation, as the plan still is (supposedly) to submit an OBC early next year.
Incidentally, the estimated cost of this section in the 1993 plans was £20 million.

2) construction inflation is more, because it is heavily labour dependent, and labour costs have risen much more than inflation (especially in construction).

Fair enough, but surely that can't be the only reason for huge cost increases (such as the example above, a 10x increase in less than 30 years)?

 

[DarloRich]

How much impact has making (what seems to me) much greater effort not to kill the workforce had on prices?

I always point to CDM regulations and things like LOLER as examples of the change in requirements. If you cant sleep they are worth a read

Fair enough, but surely that can't be the only reason for huge cost increases (such as the example above, a 10x increase in less than 30 years)?

There have been vast regulatory changes. I give two examples above. Personally, I am quite grateful for those changes as they have improved HSEA on building and construction sites a great deal. We still kill far too many construction workers every year in the UK mind.

CDM: The Construction (Design and Management) Regulations
LOLER: Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair enough, but surely that can't be the only reason for huge cost increases (such as the example above, a 10x increase in less than 30 years)?

That’s why I asked if it is the same project.

In railway terms, a new railway today has a lot more ‘kit’ on it than a new railway 30 years ago. E.g. staff safety arrangements, complete radio coverage, TPWS, remote monitoring on assets, and in almost every case a better quality of asset on a whole life cost basis (one example being the standard of S&C design, now almost always on concrete with lots of kit to reduce maintenance and make them more reliable; much higher up front cost but lower maintenance).

 

[judethegreat]

Have construction industry wages actually increased above inflation in recent decades?

 

[DarloRich]

Have construction industry wages actually increased above inflation in recent decades?

Yes - at least pre covid - the ONS hold some good date on this kind of thing.