Cost of Possessions

[hobbm013]

Hi,

I appreciate there is no simple answer to this question, and about half an hour of internet searching hasn't really brought up much more. But what is the cost of Network Rail taking a possession on the network for renewals, enhancements and maintenance?

From what I can understand there are a range of contributing factors, but does anyone know a ballpark figure, or avergae, which I could use for a comparison.

Many thanks

 

[Watershed]

Not all possessions are the same. If it's a standard one under the Rules of the Route (e.g. Saturday night/Sunday early hours) I don't think operators are compensated. For other possessions the cost will vary depending on the line in question, and will typically include the cost of bustitution or additional mileage on diversions, in addition to a calculation of the lost revenue.

@The Planner or @Bald Rick amongst others may be be better placed to give an idea of the order of magnitude!

Of course in one sense the values are almost academic at the moment, because it's simply money going from one pocket of the government (NR) to another (DfT via the TOCs' ERMAs)...!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Hi,

I appreciate there is no simple answer to this question, and about half an hour of internet searching hasn't really brought up much more. But what is the cost of Network Rail taking a possession on the network for renewals, enhancements and maintenance?

From what I can understand there are a range of contributing factors, but does anyone know a ballpark figure, or avergae, which I could use for a comparison.

Many thanks

There are at least three elements to the 'cost':

Firstly the management costs of producing plans, method statements, re-timetabling, staff costs for the Person In Charge and those doing isolations, putting down marker boards and so forth.

Secondly the cost of the work to be done in the possession - relaying, vegetation management, installing new signals or whatever.

Thirdly the cost under the Restrictions of Use/Schedule 4 regime. Although widely derided as un-necessary this is the only attempt at measuring the revenue impact of the possession. In very broad terms it is driven by the amount of extended journey time and quasi-cancellations in the revised timetable. There is also an element for bus costs.

For the third category there is obviously no compensation payable for 'non-disruptive' possessions, e.g. those taken overnight between last and first trains or on Sundays where there is no Sunday service. Where normal timetabled trains are disrupted the value will broadly reflect the amount of revenue at risk. So blockading King's Cross is very 'expensive', whereas a blockade of the Conwy Valley line is relatively cheap.

(This is very simplified description and there are variations for things like the amount of notice, whether possessions go on for weeks, the effects for freight, etc.)

It is pointless to think of an 'average' figure otherwise you end up with the 'comfortable' statistician who has his head in an oven and feet in a bucket of liquid nitrogen.

 

[The Planner]

If you are looking at the possession on its own and ignoring the cost of the work itself then its basically the Schedule 4 compensation. Not much more to add than what has been said to be fair. Sch4 comes to around £300-350 million pounds a year though.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Enhancements i worked on invariably racked up big Schedule 4 costs to the TOCs impacted and as lay person you would say why does it cost so much to do straight forward construction works its often because of the Sch4 costs. As Watershed says its pointless in todays environment but by and large its been an unnecessary money go around right from privatisation.

To add to Dr Hoo comments a typical two track possession on the Southern 3rd rail needs a

PICOP
at least two possession support staff to lay and remove protection and if its an overnight often 4 to speed it up.

Then for each worksite you need

Engineering Supervisor
at least two staff to erect marker boards and install short circuit straps
then a COSS to look after safety arrangements of works
a Person In Charge of works
and if you have rail plant you need a Machine Controller per item
oh and if you have more than two items now you need a Plant Operation Scheme representative

not forgetting staff will have to attend a pre works briefing as well as being involved in the planning and the ES will have to goto a PICOP briefing and someone will need to attend possession planning meetings.

So before you've even got a shovel in the ground you've run up 1000's in people costs and it runs into millions on Sch4 on big enhancement projects.

 

[Mag_seven]

The Network Rail website has a useful summary page:

Payments for planned disruption on the railway - Network Rail

We work hard with train operators to run a punctual and reliable train service for passengers. To ensure that this happens, we need to continually maintain, renew and enhance the rail network. We aim to undertake this work in the most efficient way, whilst minimising disruption to passengers...

www.networkrail.co.uk

To ensure that this happens, we need to continually maintain, renew and enhance the rail network. We aim to undertake this work in the most efficient way, whilst minimising disruption to passengers.

However, there are times when train services must be cancelled or redirected to allow this work to take place. When this happens, we take “possession” of the network, and make payments to train operators to reflect the financial impact on their businesses.

 

[Bald Rick]

My specialised subject.

Short answer - it depends.

@Dr Hoo brilliantly summarises the principles.

I will leave aside the cost of the physical work and planning thereof.

The cost of the act of taking the possession -PICOP, “block road men”, isolation staff if required, is simply the cost of staff, vans, fuel and some kit. If you have to hire the people in (as opposed to using full time staff as part of their normal duties) it will be somewhere between £2k and £20k depending on the complexity and duration of a possession. The cheaper end is for a simple 2 line non electric railway overnight block, the top end for a complex electric railway with junctions aplenty for a weekend. Obviously long blockades are more expensive, albeit the big cost is the taking and handing back.

The compensation to train operators is very complex. Essentially, compensation is paid for any service that is timetabled to run in the base timetable (the ‘applicable day’) but is subsequently diverted, shortened in journey length, or cancelled altogether. (Calculations done on something called monitoring points, which is some, but not all, stations each train is due to serve). Each service is part of a ‘Service Group’, which has rates applicable for the train. These rates vary considerably by service group, depdnign on how valuable they are, and most groups have a peak and off peak rate, and are intended to represent the value of the average service in that service group. Discounts are applied for advance notice - very advance that is. The most valuable service group always use to be Thameslink Bedford to Blackfriars, with LNER to Yorkshire close behind. I suspect this may have changed.

A weekend block of a rural branch line might cost a couple of hundred pounds. A full week of Waterloo will be in the millions.

Perhaps the best news is that the process for working all this compensation out is largely automatic, and requires relatively little staff time.

The bad news is that for works that are not classified as maintenance or steady state renewals, operators are entitled to claim their full costs and losses, and that is a negaotiated settlement which naturally takes more time.

 

[The Planner]

Full costs are on type 3 possessions, over 120 hours. As long as you are before 22 weeks you get the max discount. Late notice stuff is tres tres expensive.

 

[Ploughman]

Enhancements i worked on invariably racked up big Schedule 4 costs to the TOCs impacted and as lay person you would say why does it cost so much to do straight forward construction works its often because of the Sch4 costs. As Watershed says its pointless in todays environment but by and large its been an unnecessary money go around right from privatisation.

To add to Dr Hoo comments a typical two track possession on the Southern 3rd rail needs a

PICOP
at least two possession support staff to lay and remove protection and if its an overnight often 4 to speed it up.

Then for each worksite you need

Engineering Supervisor
at least two staff to erect marker boards and install short circuit straps
then a COSS to look after safety arrangements of works
a Person In Charge of works
and if you have rail plant you need a Machine Controller per item
oh and if you have more than two items now you need a Plant Operation Scheme representative

not forgetting staff will have to attend a pre works briefing as well as being involved in the planning and the ES will have to goto a PICOP briefing and someone will need to attend possession planning meetings.

So before you've even got a shovel in the ground you've run up 1000's in people costs and it runs into millions on Sch4 on big enhancement projects.

In times gone by (mid 90's)
I have acted as PICOP, ES, Tech, COSS and placed my own protection. Then briefed myself.