Could a decent service be reintroduced between Goole and Leeds (via Knottingley)?

[xotGD]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/goole-area-to-knottingley-hardly-any-valid-itineraries.185151/

Passengers travelling from stations including Goole, Saltmarshe, Thorne North, Hatfield & Stainforth and Kirk Sandall to Knottingley (and vice versa) have a very raw deal when it comes to the route-wise validity of the fares!

All of these journeys are considered "local journeys" for the purposes of the Routeing Guide. This means that the only permitted route is either the shortest route, or a direct train, or taking direct trains to and from the common Routeing Point (Goole).

There are three direct trains per day on the line between Goole and Knottingley via Snaith, two westbound and one eastbound. There is no Sunday service at all on the line. However, the use of this line is mandatory for the journeys outlined above, because of the Routeing Guide rules.

You will see that the vast majority of retailers do not offer any other itineraries than those involving the very limited number of trains via Snaith - despite the fact that there are approximately hourly non-overtaken itineraries available via Doncaster and Wakefield Westgate, with a few additional itineraries involving the Grand Central services from Doncaster to Wakefield Kirkgate and Pontefract Monkhill.

This is all rather odd and, I'd like to hope, unintended, because the fares to Knottingley are very poor value for money for the distance covered by the permitted routes - e.g. a season ticket from Goole to Knottingley (valid for only 18 trains per week in total) is £50.60 a week, and an Anytime Day Return is £11.50, but the distance is only 16 miles by rail - i.e. far more expensive than most fares within the North or even the South. This also costs far more than any of the intermediate fares for the non-Snaith itineraries, e.g. Goole to Doncaster, Doncaster to Wakefield etc.

At the moment it would appear that the fares structure is aligned as if you're going to go via Doncaster and Wakefield, but isn't technically valid that way. And whilst that is, of course, only a question of "theoretical" validity, prospective passengers are going to be offered no itineraries at all for the vast majority of the day from Monday-Saturday, and no itineraries at all on Sundays as a result of the silly Routeing Guide implementation.

They might then think there is no way of making the journey, when in fact there is, but the bodged fare structure and Routeing Guide means it's not possible to get many itineraries on a non-splitting retailer.

To be honest, I'm surprised that the current Any Permitted fare isn't routed "via Doncaster", and a new, cheaper "via Snaith" fare introduced. Something like that would seem to be a far more sensible approach, and is indeed the approach taken for other infrequently served lines such as the Brigg line. It would also, without even having to change anything about the Routeing Guide, fix the whole problem. Perhaps Northern might like to make changes to their fares structure along these lines.

Admittedly the number of people who want to make journeys like this will be very small, but that's no reason to leave the mediocre situation as it is!

Better still would be the reintroduction of a decent service to the route throughout the day, together with more sensibly priced tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Better still would be the reintroduction of a decent service to the route throughout the day, together with more sensibly priced tickets.

Agreed - though are there any proposals along these lines?

 

[alistairlees]

Agreed - though are there any proposals along these lines?

I doubt it. There have never been many trains along this line. And I doubt there will be given the other priorities there must be. Though I agree that it would be good if there was an improved service.

 

[lyndhurst25]

No plans to up the services that I'm aware of. Quite a few lines in the North had their services drastically cut back in the late 1980s and early 1990s due to 1st generation DMUs being withdrawn and not enough Pacers and Sprinters ordered to replace them. Knottingley-Goole, the Sheffield-Brigg-Cleethorpes, Middlesbrough-Whitby, Sheffield-Pontefract Baghill-York, etc. Now the Pacers are heading off to the scrapyard and I suspect that the same mistake has been repeated again: not enough units ordered to replace them, let alone reintroduce useful services on the lines mentioned above.

It's not in Northern's franchise commitments so I can't see them bothering with restored services on these lines unless they were forced or paid to do so. I wonder what persuaded them to reintroduce Sunday trains on the Cumbrian Coast line for the first time since the 1970s?

Speculative wibble idea: keep the Class 144s in service, refurbish them to make them accessible as one already has been done as a demonstrator, and use them on these lines. Even a Pacer is better than no train at all! And if there's nowhere to service the units, then Knottingley TMD will be looking for work with the rundown if the Aire Valley power stations....

 

[AndyHudds]

The service was reduced due to lack of rolling stock and Northern, or it's predecessors had promised to reinstate the service when stock became available, does that mean now with the arrival of the new trains displacing older stock?

 

[tbtc]

It's not in Northern's franchise commitments so I can't see them bothering with restored services on these lines unless they were forced or paid to do so. I wonder what persuaded them to reintroduce Sunday trains on the Cumbrian Coast line for the first time since the 1970s?

Northern are struggling to even deliver the franchise commitments they signed up to, so I wouldn't hold my breath expecting them to start going over and above.

The Knottingley - Goole line doesn't have any large intermediate stations, there's no places of significant population, the vast majority of people in the area are going to have access to cars (in which case they can drive to Selby which has a good service to Leeds/ Hull/ York/ Doncaster)...

...and, as ever on such threads, there's the Opportunity Cost to consider (any spare DMUs you rustle up for this line are DMUs that could be used for something boring but necessary like additional seats on existing services into Leeds/ Manchester etc.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The service was reduced due to lack of rolling stock and Northern, or it's predecessors had promised to reinstate the service when stock became available, does that mean now with the arrival of the new trains displacing older stock?

Unfortunately I would never trust such a promise. Once a service has been abolished you can't rely on it ever coming back unless and until you see it with your own eyes!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, it needs to be reinstated. Goole is an area that would benefit from links to West Yorkshire, and Snaith could benefit from links.

If we can't rejuvenate an existing railway, there is little chance of rebuilding any other rail links.

 

[30907]

The service was reduced due to lack of rolling stock and Northern, or it's predecessors had promised to reinstate the service when stock became available, does that mean now with the arrival of the new trains displacing older stock?

Unless I'm much mistaken, the only train pair withdrawn in the last 30 years or so was a lunchtime return from Leeds - the unit was used to give Knottingley its full hourly service by both routes, no doubt at WYPTEs insistence.

CORRECTION: that was only 15 years ago.

 

[Bevan Price]

What might make sense to me would be for the line to be used for through services between Wakefield, Castleford, Pontefract to Goole & Hull. Maybe mostly every 2 hours initially, and some trains omitting some of the smaller intermediate stations.

 

[yorksrob]

Unless I'm much mistaken, the only train pair withdrawn in the last 30 years or so was a lunchtime return from Leeds - the unit was used to give Knottingley its full hourly service by both routes, no doubt at WYPTEs insistence.

I was under the impression that Goole via Knottingley had a train every three hours or so.

 

[lyndhurst25]

According to the Hensall station entry on Wikipedia:
"There was a more frequent service in place in the 1970s and 1980s (5-6 trains per day each way - see Table 32 of the 1979, 1985 & 1988 National Passenger timetables for more details), but the timetable was cut in half in 1991 due to a rolling stock shortage and to the present minimal level in 2004. The remaining trains are operated primarily to meet Northern's franchise commitments and to avoid the need for both the station and the Knottingley to Goole line to be put through the formal closure process".

 

[30907]

I was under the impression that Goole via Knottingley had a train every three hours or so.

Apologies - I was confusing the 2004 cut with the 1991 one (which pretty much coincided with the reopening of the Wakefield route also supported by WYPTE.

Post corrected.

 

[Ianno87]

Controversial thought alert: Shoud Drax Power station ever close...would keeping the line open east of Knottingley make any sense at all?

 

[cactustwirly]

I was under the impression that Goole via Knottingley had a train every three hours or so.

No, only one train to Goole in the evening, then two to Leeds, one early in the morning and the other in the evening

 

[yorksrob]

No, only one train to Goole in the evening, then two to Leeds, one early in the morning and the other in the evening

This was some years ago, before it got slashed as part of the privatisation sweetener.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Controversial thought alert: Shoud Drax Power station ever close...would keeping the line open east of Knottingley make any sense at all?

Of course not. But there is no political will to actually close lines with any passenger service, so it would probably be kept open at great expense just to keep the three daily parliamentary trains running.

The Brigg line is in a similar situation. It had a lot of money spent on it so that it could be used for imported coal trains from Immingham to the Nottinghamshire power stations. When these close then the line serves no useful purpose, other than to carry the Saturday only parliamentary services.

Maybe the politics will change and the lines will be threatened with total closure. "Dirty" diesel trains being replaced with a more frequent "green" hybrid electric bus service, would be the spin.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Looking in a copy of the Summer 1998 timetable-

Goole to Leeds 0706, 1334 and 1850.
Leeds-Goole 1210 and 1727.

The middle day train got cut in 2004.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course not. But there is no political will to actually close lines with any passenger service, so it would probably be kept open at great expense just to keep the three daily parliamentary trains running.

The Brigg line is in a similar situation. It had a lot of money spent on it so that it could be used for imported coal trains from Immingham to the Nottinghamshire power stations. When these close then the line serves no useful purpose, other than to carry the Saturday only parliamentary services.

Maybe the politics will change and the lines will be threatened with total closure. "Dirty" diesel trains being replaced with a more frequent "green" hybrid electric bus service, would be the spin.

Or they might actually run a usable passenger service on the routes - just a thought !

 

[alistairlees]

Here's the service from May 1975 to May 1976

Leeds to Goole
07.10
09.33
12.15
15.00
16.57
17.33

All trains stopped at all stations. Journey time was generally 69 minutes. On Bank Holidays only the 17.33 ran. There was no Sunday service.

But, apart from two other trains, that was the entirety of the service to Castleford and beyond (Woodlesford had trains to Wakefield Kirkgate and Sheffield).

Here are the other two:
08.05 SX (to Castleford only)
21.32 (to Knottingley) (also ran on Bank Holidays!)

Here's the reverse direction, from Goole to Leeds:
07.20
08.25
10.49
13.03
16.18
18.24

Journey time from Goole to Leeds was generally 71 minutes. On Bank Holidays only the 13.03 ran. No trains on Sundays.

With also an 08.33 SX from Castleford to Leeds (arr. 08.54) and an 06.55 from Knottingley to Leeds (arr. 07.34).

So, whilst villages such as Snaith "enjoyed" six trains a day, Knottingley only got seven and Castleford eight. Services at the last two places have improved much moe, which is often ignored or forgotten about.

 

[alistairlees]

Ten years later, in the May 1985 to May 1986 timetable, for Mondays to Saturdays:

Leeds to Goole
08.10
12.03
15.03
16.49
18.03

Goole to Leeds
07.15
09.33
13.33
16.20
18.15

None of these ran on Bank Holidays, and there was no service on Sundays.

There were also seven extra services to / from Knottingley; and four further extra services to / from Castleford. Combined, this made for an hourly service to / from Castleford, more or less.

 

[yorksrob]

Here's the service from May 1975 to May 1976

Leeds to Goole
07.10
09.33
12.15
15.00
16.57
17.33

All trains stopped at all stations. Journey time was generally 69 minutes. On Bank Holidays only the 17.33 ran. There was no Sunday service.

But, apart from two other trains, that was the entirety of the service to Castleford and beyond (Woodlesford had trains to Wakefield Kirkgate and Sheffield).

Here are the other two:
08.05 SX (to Castleford only)
21.32 (to Knottingley) (also ran on Bank Holidays!)

Here's the reverse direction, from Goole to Leeds:
07.20
08.25
10.49
13.03
16.18
18.24

Journey time from Goole to Leeds was generally 71 minutes. On Bank Holidays only the 13.03 ran. No trains on Sundays.

With also an 08.33 SX from Castleford to Leeds (arr. 08.54) and an 06.55 from Knottingley to Leeds (arr. 07.34).

So, whilst villages such as Snaith "enjoyed" six trains a day, Knottingley only got seven and Castleford eight. Services at the last two places have improved much moe, which is often ignored or forgotten about.

But a good part of the Castleford improvement has been diverting the Hallam stoppers that way. This would have been separate from the additional Knottingleys.

 

[Harpers Tate]

No, only one train to Goole in the evening, then two to Leeds, one early in the morning and the other in the evening

This was some years ago, before it got slashed as part of the privatisation sweetener.

The pattern described by @cactustwirly is as it is at present Mon-Sat. Goole departures at 0742 and 1944; Leeds departure at 1758.

 

[yorksrob]

The pattern described by @cactustwirly is as it is at present Mon-Sat. Goole departures at 0742 and 1944; Leeds departure at 1758.

I pointed out that the pattern had more trains some years ago, then @cactustwirly contradicted me quoting the current pattern.

I think we've already established what the current pattern of service is, therefore I see no reason to keep repeating it.

 

[AndyHudds]

Would it be such a bad thing for Northern to reinstate a 5 a day timetable and see how it went for a year or so as a trial? The current service is of no use to anyone aside from enthusiasts who want to travel the line or if it actually coincides with a time that's convenient for someone to use it. I don't see how things could ever improve without some kind of campaign to brow beat Northern in to action, maybe they could be proactive for once.

 

[Neptune]

Up until 2004 there was a 1204 Leeds - Goole and return service which I worked on many occasions. It was almost always empty between Knottingley and Goole both ways and withdrawn as being totally uneconomical.

 

[alistairlees]

But a good part of the Castleford improvement has been diverting the Hallam stoppers that way. This would have been separate from the additional Knottingleys.

Not in 1985/1986. None of the Sheffield ("Hallam") services went via Castleford then.

In the Summer 2003 timetable (I can't find any from the 1990s) services were (Mondays to Saturdays; nothing on Sundays)

Leeds to Goole:
12.04
17.25

Goole to Leeds
07.08 (06.58 on Saturdays)
13.41
18.49

 

[yorksrob]

Not in 1985/1986. None of the Sheffield ("Hallam") services went via Castleford then.

In the Summer 2003 timetable (I can't find any from the 1990s) services were (Mondays to Saturdays; nothing on Sundays)

Leeds to Goole:
12.04
17.25

Goole to Leeds
07.08 (06.58 on Saturdays)
13.41
18.49

Possibly true.

But if you look at the service enjoyed by Castleford today, one train each way an hour is the Hallam line stopper. That's a significant element of the service that has nothing to do with multiple units being redeployed by not going to Goole. Perhaps they should have just rerouted this service then, instead of destroying the Goole service.

 

[alistairlees]

Possibly true.

No, it's definitely correct.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it's definitely correct.

It's definitely true that Castleford enjoys an hourly service to Leeds courtesy of the Hallam line.

Given that in your own post, you mention that with the full Goole service, Castleford had an hourly service, it suggests that there was no reason to withdraw the Goole services to provide today's half hourly service.

It seems that the units saved, must have gone somewhere else.