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Could a second Channel Tunnel be built to increase capacity?

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greatkingrat

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I wonder what sort of demand there would be in a hypothetical world where the UK was still in the EU and had joined the Schengen Area? If there was no need to worry about immigration rules, would there be a much greater range of destinations available, or would it still be uncompetitive with flying?
 
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Trainbike46

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Funnily enough I looked at booking a train last night to Marseille to visit my dad, once I saw the cost, plus the additional cost of getting to St Pancras from South Wales, I've said sod it and decided I'll fly. Price is the most important issue and unfortunately Eurostar just isn't competitive with flights, especially as it doesn't allow integrated ticketing with OuiGo
Two main drivers of the high prices right now are:
-limited capacity at St.Pancras
-high debts accrued during the pandemic

There is still cheap fares from london to Paris, Brussels and the Netherlands, but you often have to book well in advance.
It often is competitive with flying if you start from London or near London, but unfortunately not when you have to come from further away.
If you're not aware of them, sometimes fares to London International CIV (station code LNE) can be competitive, they are special tickets for connecting into eurostar from london.

Integrated ticketing is generally not really available with eurostar, you almost always have to split at both ends.
 

Starmill

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Funnily enough I looked at booking a train last night to Marseille to visit my dad, once I saw the cost, plus the additional cost of getting to St Pancras from South Wales, I've said sod it and decided I'll fly. Price is the most important issue and unfortunately Eurostar just isn't competitive with flights, especially as it doesn't allow integrated ticketing with OuiGo
You can probably count on one hand the number of people per month who use rail end to end for Wales to Southern France. As has been established in other threads, none of the government bodies or rail operators concerned have the slightest interest in carrying anyone so far because it comes with enormous risk of liability from missed connections, and the yields achievable from such passengers are much lower than can be achieved from filling exactly the same seat, at exactly the same operating cost, as someone making a Cardiff - London, London - Paris or Paris - Marsellie journey.

Effectively only wealthy enthusiasts like Mark Smith and people with staff passes will ever make such journeys, and nobody has any interest whatsoever in changing that - climate breakdown or no. Almost no operators on the Continent cater to a daytime market that can stand a journey time of over 6 hours. Hardly any that exceed 5 hours can run with any decent frequency. This is precisely what caused the issue with Paris - Milan and Paris - Barcelona, it takes all day. Perpignan - Paris is the only one where a through service runs more than two or three per day in that journey time. The rail operators know they just can't make money from it.
 
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zwk500

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I wonder what sort of demand there would be in a hypothetical world where the UK was still in the EU and had joined the Schengen Area? If there was no need to worry about immigration rules, would there be a much greater range of destinations available, or would it still be uncompetitive with flying?
It partly depends on whether the luggage scan would still take place - if it was, Checkin would still be 45 mins or so before departure. If it was completely unchecked than checkin could easily be 15-20 minutes before departure, which knocks nearly an hour off the time needed for starters.
Then there's the economics. No needs to provide separate security/border seals so all you need is a platform slot. Could easily see Eurostar running to Cologne and Frankfurt, as well as a wide range of French holiday/expat destinations with that.
4-5h tends to be the limit of competitiveness with journey times, although you can push the scales a bit with pricing.
 

Bald Rick

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If you're serving Disneyland, you'd do it as it's own train as the potential market for that will be very clustered around check-in and check-out times for the hotels.

That’s not what the late lamented Disney trains did though.


Bordeaux was being talked about very strongly

I wouldn’t say that. HS1 were touting for business. Eurostar had a little think about it, possibly.

I wonder what sort of demand there would be in a hypothetical world where the UK was still in the EU and had joined the Schengen Area? If there was no need to worry about immigration rules, would there be a much greater range of destinations available, or would it still be uncompetitive with flying?

Yes, there would be a much greater range of destinations. Probably Hamburg, Frankfurt (maybe even Munich), Zurich, Milan, Geneva, Nice, Barcelona (maybe Madrid). Not having any form of security or border control would just make them regular trains that could pick up / drop off passengers anywhere.

Just one example - there are a number of services that start in Lille before heading to the south of France. It would be relatively low cost to extend those to start / terminate at St Pancras, where there is a much bigger market.


Two main drivers of the high prices right now are:
-limited capacity at St.Pancras
-high debts accrued during the pandemic

By far the biggest driver is that the market will bear it, and that is because it is (for most people) quicker and more convenient than flying to Paris.

The second biggest driver is that the cost base for running a railway is substantially more than for running an airline on a seat /km basis, particularly for longer Rail journeys

If it was completely unchecked then checkin could easily be 15-20 minutes before departure, which knocks nearly an hour off the time needed for starters.

Reasonable to assume that with no border control or security, you wouldn’t need check in. You don’t check in at
Basel for the Hamburg train, you just get on.
 

zwk500

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That’s not what the late lamented Disney trains did though.
The Disney service called only at Marne-le-vallee, no? Maybe it didn't go for the check-in times but it was not serving Paris at the same time.
I wouldn’t say that. HS1 were touting for business. Eurostar had a little think about it, possibly.
It's a market that's cropped up a few times. 'Very strongly' might have been overegging it after a few reporters got wind of it, but as a market it's not unimaginable. Whether it'd be economic with the border regime in force is another question.
The second biggest driver is that the cost base for running a railway is substantially more than for running an airline on a seat /km basis, particularly for longer Rail journeys
Yes, people overlook that Airlines generally don't have maintenance costs for their jetways, only the fees for the Airport. Whereas trains need the tracks maintaining all the way.
Reasonable to assume that with no border control or security, you wouldn’t need check in. You don’t check in at
Basel for the Hamburg train.
It depends how they do it, I was assuming the channel tunnel fire evacuation regulations would still require a regulated passenger count, and that Eurostar would still want mandatory reservations. I'm more envisaging a person checking tickets at the ramp up to the platform rather than a holding pen, a bit like Ouigo do. Although today with apps and e-tickets it's easy to see walk-on boarding being part of Eurostar if the border etc wasn't a problem.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Two main drivers of the high prices right now are:
-limited capacity at St.Pancras
-high debts accrued during the pandemic

There is still cheap fares from london to Paris, Brussels and the Netherlands, but you often have to book well in advance.
It often is competitive with flying if you start from London or near London, but unfortunately not when you have to come from further away.
If you're not aware of them, sometimes fares to London International CIV (station code LNE) can be competitive, they are special tickets for connecting into eurostar from london.

Integrated ticketing is generally not really available with eurostar, you almost always have to split at both ends.
The price I looked at was purely St Pancras to Marseille, a service I used to find direct for £200ish return. Now it's not direct it's more expensive and as mentioned uses inOui not OuiGo which is an issue when pricing it.

If we want to rival air travel it needs to be competitive. I'm trying to be climate conscious but am forced to not be by the exorbitant prices.
You can probably count on one hand the number of people per month who use rail end to end for Wales to Southern France. As has been established in other threads, none of the government bodies or rail operators concerned have the slightest interest in carrying anyone so far because it comes with enormous risk of liability from missed connections, and the yields achievable from such passengers are much lower than can be achieved from filling exactly the same seat, at exactly the same operating cost, as someone making a Cardiff - London, London - Paris or Paris - Marsellie journey..
Again at no point was I mentioning price from South Wales other than adding it in as a separate cost.

Considering my stepmum worked with the son of a former colleague of my father's out there the demand is greater than you'd think, especially if they returned the one weekly return journey. The summer Saturday St Charles service wasn't exactly dead prior to being killed, otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long.

Short haul travel to France will continue to be dominated by air travel unless prices come down, which in my opinion, is a damn travesty considering the climate emergency we're in.

Would ouiGo type services, avoiding major stations like Gare de Nord and St Pancras, say Ebbsfleet to Haute Picarde type stations be viable? If so they need to be a priority for the two governments to reduce reliance on air travel
 

Bald Rick

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The Disney service called only at Marne-le-vallee, no? Maybe it didn't go for the check-in times but it was not serving Paris at the same time.

Yes, sorry, I was referring to the check in times. Arrival at MLV was well before check in, and departure well after check out. There are, of course, luggage facilities at the on-site hotels.


It depends how they do it, I was assuming the channel tunnel fire evacuation regulations would still require a regulated passenger count,

I didn’t know they do that.


Eurostar would still want mandatory reservations.

Probably, but that doesn’t need check in!
 

SynthD

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Just one example - there are a number of services that start in Lille before heading to the south of France. It would be relatively low cost to extend those to start / terminate at St Pancras, where there is a much bigger market.
Could some of them start at Calais Fretun? A parkway station within Schengen, or even a partner company coach service?
 

Bald Rick

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Could some of them start at Calais Fretun? A parkway station within Schengen, or even a partner company coach service?

They could, but what would be the point?

With the current arrangements, it’s far quicker and easier to get a Eurostar to Lille and change there.
 

Trainbike46

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By far the biggest driver is that the market will bear it, and that is because it is (for most people) quicker and more convenient than flying to Paris.

Sorry, in my head, I was comparing pre-brexit, pre-covid eurostar with eurostar today, and obviously the what the market will bear part was there both before and after.

The costs of running the train (track access, tunnel, staffing, trains, etc.) are obviously still there on both sides of that divide.

So I was focusing on what has changed, and two big ones are that the capacity has decreased, and that eurostar accrued a lot of debt during the pandemic.

The price I looked at was purely St Pancras to Marseille, a service I used to find direct for £200ish return. Now it's not direct it's more expensive and as mentioned uses inOui not OuiGo which is an issue when pricing it.

If we want to rival air travel it needs to be competitive. I'm trying to be climate conscious but am forced to not be by the exorbitant prices.

Again at no point was I mentioning price from South Wales other than adding it in as a separate cost.

Considering my stepmum worked with the son of a former colleague of my father's out there the demand is greater than you'd think, especially if they returned the one weekly return journey. The summer Saturday St Charles service wasn't exactly dead prior to being killed, otherwise it wouldn't have lasted so long.

Short haul travel to France will continue to be dominated by air travel unless prices come down, which in my opinion, is a damn travesty considering the climate emergency we're in.

Would ouiGo type services, avoiding major stations like Gare de Nord and St Pancras, say Ebbsfleet to Haute Picarde type stations be viable? If so they need to be a priority for the two governments to reduce reliance on air travel
It would be a benefit for you if the south of france services return, that is for sure!

However, until then, looking at splitting tickets in Paris or lille could help reduce the cost, so may be worth it if you want.

Seat61 has a good page setting out all the options: https://www.seat61.com/France.htm#london-to-avignon-aix-marseille-by-train

However, I fully agree with you that they should make it easier!!
 

mike57

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However, until then, looking at splitting tickets in Paris or lille could help reduce the cost, so may be worth it if you want.
We were looking at a trip later this year and initial view was that for booking a Eurostar/SNCF journey you are better off booking the whole trip through SNCF where its a combined Eurostar/SNCF journey, changing at Lille
 

Bald Rick

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Sorry, in my head, I was comparing pre-brexit, pre-covid eurostar with eurostar today, and obviously the what the market will bear part was there both before and after.

The costs of running the train (track access, tunnel, staffing, trains, etc.) are obviously still there on both sides of that divide.

Ah, right.

There’s some complex stuff about track access charges for HS1. IIRC they are divided between the users on the basis of train miles, and with Southeastern reducing their services, Eurostar had to pick up a bigger share. So they’ve reduced theirs too! All fun and games.

There is no doubt that passengers are willing to pay more to use the train than the plane for routes such as this - where the effective journey time is shorter, it‘s more comfortable, and there is less faffing around.
 

zwk500

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There’s some complex stuff about track access charges for HS1. IIRC they are divided between the users on the basis of train miles, and with Southeastern reducing their services, Eurostar had to pick up a bigger share. So they’ve reduced theirs too! All fun and games.
Really? I can see a certain logic in it, but it massively disincentives any operator to move too far ahead of any other. That's a fascinating structure.
 

Bald Rick

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Really? I can see a certain logic in it, but it massively disincentives any operator to move too far ahead of any other. That's a fascinating structure.

I might be wrong. It happens frequently!

However certain parts of station access charges are certainly divided on the basis of number of trains calling - this is the same for NR.
 

zwk500

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I might be wrong. It happens frequently!
You do yourself a disservice! I thought the access charges for HS1 were based on time spent occupying the network, but I guess like all these things it's a mix of lots of methods.
However certain parts of station access charges are certainly divided on the basis of number of trains calling - this is the same for NR.
It makes more sense for stations with 3/4 franchised operators, as they're less likely to drop calls purely to try and weasel out of a rubbish collection fee or their share of the electricity bill.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Eurostar already has almost all the London-Brussels air+rail passenger market, save for those changing planes at one or other end. Even if everyone flying between the two cities swapped to Eurostar, it would fill less than one e320 a day each way.

Amsterdam, however, is a different kettle of fish. Huge opportunity - enough market for an hourly service if the capacity can be found. It’s just a shame it isn’t quicker - it’s only around 60 miles further than Paris from London yet takes 1h40 longer.

Where is the capacity issue?
 

JKF

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Tunnels don't care for days when the Bay of Biscay is angry, or there's an Atlantic storm rolling in, ofc.
also, unlike airlines, if your ferry is cancelled there’s currently no requirement for the operator to provide you with overnight accommodation or meals etc. if you have to wait for the seas to calm. I discovered this a couple of years back when I rolled into Bilbao late in the evening in an estate car filled with half my possessions. Finding an Airbnb with secure parking at 9pm in a country where you don’t speak the language wasn‘t particularly easy…
 

Energy

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It depends how they do it, I was assuming the channel tunnel fire evacuation regulations would still require a regulated passenger count
Automatic passenger counting using CCTV cameras has been a thing for a while.
 

Trainbike46

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also, unlike airlines, if your ferry is cancelled there’s currently no requirement for the operator to provide you with overnight accommodation or meals etc. if you have to wait for the seas to calm. I discovered this a couple of years back when I rolled into Bilbao late in the evening in an estate car filled with half my possessions. Finding an Airbnb with secure parking at 9pm in a country where you don’t speak the language wasn‘t particularly easy…
Did they not just let you take your cabins on the ship, and wait until the conditions were right before setting off?
 

popeter45

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one small idea for upping capacity at passport checks, can they allow just one boarder guard from either UK or EU to do both exit and entry checks at the same time?, would nearly double capcaity if you only needed to queue once rather than twice
 

Trainbike46

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one small idea for upping capacity at passport checks, can they allow just one boarder guard from either UK or EU to do both exit and entry checks at the same time?, would nearly double capcaity if you only needed to queue once rather than twice
There is only a french border official when departing St Pancras. The check before is a eurostar contractor, who is collecting "advance passenger information" for the UK government
 

zwk500

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one small idea for upping capacity at passport checks, can they allow just one boarder guard from either UK or EU to do both exit and entry checks at the same time?, would nearly double capcaity if you only needed to queue once rather than twice
I've never been delayed by the 2 checks, everybody's held up by the same amount so the impact on throughput is marginal. Also you then would need the Home office to approve French PAF controlling UK borders, and I cannot imagine the level of huffing over the Daily Telegraph such a change would provoke on Pall Mall. I also don't see the French being overly keen to trust the Brits with their borders, especially now we've left the EU.
If you want more capacity on the border checks, it's more lanes and therefore more officers (or self-scan gates) you need.

Separately, doing such checks would also make things more complicated for people travelling on multiple passports, although I accept the number of people this would inconvenience would be vanishingly small.
 

popeter45

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If you want more capacity on the border checks, it's more lanes and therefore more officers (or self-scan gates) you need.
that was the aim via my idea, rather than 2 checks have 1 and twice as many lanes as a result
 

Wolfie

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that was the aim via my idea, rather than 2 checks have 1 and twice as many lanes as a result
The chances of HMG allowing a foreign police force free access to sensitive UK eyes only data is nil..... Not to mention the data protection laws that would doubtless be violated.....
 

zwk500

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that was the aim via my idea, rather than 2 checks have 1 and twice as many lanes as a result
But the way the "exit" checks are set out is in sequence, not in parallel. All your suggestion does is move the queue hold slightly further up. And, as mentioned, The Home Office are never going to hand control of entry to the UK to *the French*.
 

Mountain Man

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The problem with the likes of Milan, ie longer distance with a current 1 change option is the benefits of a direct service are far less.

A direct service of 7 or 8 hours ie. Basically a full day travelling won't generate much mote demand over a current 11 or 12 hour journey changing in Paris. It's still a day of travel practically.

It's the shorter journeys where the time impact of changing is greater proportionally felt that offer the opportunities.
 
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