Could all stations get Platform Edge Doors?

[miklcct]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stand-behind-the-line.233996/#post-5741241

I think part of the problem is too many people don't know how to behave on a platform. At my local station I regularly see people wandering close to the platform edge as a train arrives, headphones on, eyes on their phone without a care in the world. I wouldn't want to drive a train into a platform and if I was a member of staff responsible for the platform I'd want people to move back.

Us on here know how to behave but many don't.

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

 

[Kite159]

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

Which will only work if only one type of train serves that station so the doors can be designed for that particular train (ie jubilee line).

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why is it that at several stations those who rely on the tactile paving to find out that they are approaching the edge are apparently ok to get closer to the edge than everybody else; the tactile paving being several inches inside the yellow line?

I would imagine that they are more a warning for approaching the platform edge so those that use them know they are close to the train rather than a line for them to stand at. Useful as a 'gone too far' line if you will.

Most people who have such poor vision tend to have assistance booked or have a guide with them.

Why is it that at several stations those who rely on the tactile paving to find out that they are approaching the edge are apparently ok to get closer to the edge than everybody else; the tactile paving being several inches inside the yellow line?

I would imagine that they are more a warning for approaching the platform edge so those that use them know they are close to the train rather than a line for them to stand at. Useful as a 'gone too far'

Most people who have such poor vision tend to have assistance booked or have a guide with them.

 

[Hadders]

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

This won't happen. My local station has the following tyoe of trains using it, with varying train length and door layouts it'll just isn't feasible:

Azuma 9-car
Azuma 5-car
Azuma 5x2-car
Class 91 and MkIV 9-car (can sometimes be 8-car)
Hull Trains 5-car Paragon
Class 700 12-car
Class 700 8-car
Class 717 6-car
Class 387 4-car
Class 387 8-car
Class 387 12-car

I also think class 180s, 318s, class 222s and 321s can still call at the station but currently aren't scheduled to do so.
In addition charter trains sometimes call at the station.

How would platform edge doors work in this situation?

 

[miklcct]

Which will only work if only one type of train serves that station so the doors can be designed for that particular train (ie jubilee line).

It will also work if the doors of different trains are at standardized locations.

For example, a carriage is always 23 m long and can have at most 5 pairs of doors. If the train has 3 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1, 3 and 5; if it has 2 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1 and 5, or 2 and 5 if position 1 is occupied by the toilet.

 

[Falcon1200]

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

Any ideas on where the billions upon billions of pounds needed to achieve that would come from, and what therefore would be the cost per life saved ?

 

[zwk500]

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

There are a vast number of stations where that is not remotely practical. It's not even practical on the London Underground.

 

[Lewlew]

It will also work if the doors of different trains are at standardized locations.

For example, a carriage is always 23 m long and can have at most 5 pairs of doors. If the train has 3 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1, 3 and 5; if it has 2 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1 and 5, or 2 and 5 if position 1 is occupied by the toilet.

Are you going to pay to scrap every train in the country and replace them with a new standardised one?

 

[The exile]

Are you going to pay to scrap every train in the country and replace them with a new standardised one?

It also the required the platform doors to “know” for each arrival exactly what type of train (what about two different door configurations coupled together), what length etc and get it right every time - including diversions, unscheduled working etc.

 

[miklcct]

Are you going to pay to scrap every train in the country and replace them with a new standardised one?

It can be done when the current trains are life expired, with platform doors installation done gradually over 4 decades.

 

[Javelin_55]

This won't happen. My local station has the following tyoe of trains using it, with varying train length and door layouts it'll just isn't feasible:

Azuma 9-car
Azuma 5-car
Azuma 5x2-car
Class 91 and MkIV 9-car (can sometimes be 8-car)
Hull Trains 5-car Paragon
Class 700 12-car
Class 700 8-car
Class 717 6-car
Class 387 4-car
Class 387 8-car
Class 387 12-car

I also think class 180s, 318s, class 222s and 321s can still call at the station but currently aren't scheduled to do so.
In addition charter trains sometimes call at the station.

How would platform edge doors work in this situation?

You've got me curious now as to which station this is. My best (probably terrible) guess is Stevenage but can't think of anywhere where all that stock definitely calls. Anywhere close?

Edit: King's Cross?!

 

[miklcct]

This won't happen. My local station has the following tyoe of trains using it, with varying train length and door layouts it'll just isn't feasible:

Azuma 9-car
Azuma 5-car
Azuma 5x2-car
Class 91 and MkIV 9-car (can sometimes be 8-car)
Hull Trains 5-car Paragon
Class 700 12-car
Class 700 8-car
Class 717 6-car
Class 387 4-car
Class 387 8-car
Class 387 12-car

I also think class 180s, 318s, class 222s and 321s can still call at the station but currently aren't scheduled to do so.
In addition charter trains sometimes call at the station.

How would platform edge doors work in this situation?

We shall start with the 345s running on the Elizabeth line as they already have platform doors installed.

As soon as trains with door positions incompatible with the 345s are gone from the line, install platform doors there. Replace the old trains with new ones with door positions compatible with 345s.

Repeat the process over the next half century, by that time all current trains will be life expired and all trains by then will have door positions compatible with the 345s.

 

[D6975]

You've got me curious now as to which station this is. My best (probably terrible) guess is Stevenage but can't think of anywhere where all that stock definitely calls. Anywhere close?

Edit: King's Cross?!

I've never seen a 318 south of Carstairs!!

 

[zwk500]

You've got me curious now as to which station this is. My best (probably terrible) guess is Stevenage but can't think of anywhere where all that stock definitely calls. Anywhere close?

Edit: King's Cross?!

It can only be Stevenage or Peterborough, I'd have thought.

 

[Falcon1200]

I've never seen a 318 south of Carstairs!!

I sent a couple to Carlisle once during severe WCML disruption..... but no further ! Maybe a mistype for 317 ?

 

[skyhigh]

Repeat the process over the next half century, by that time all current trains will be life expired and all trains by then will have door positions compatible with the 345s.

So you want to replace 80x with units with 23m vehicles and doors at thirds?

 

[miklcct]

So you want to replace 80x with units with 23m vehicles and doors at thirds?

Yes, of course because it's a high speed train the driving vehicles have to be longer.

The 345 has 3 pairs of doors per car, therefore the high speed successor of the 802 should have 2, located at the 1st and 3rd doors of the 345. The bullet head should be made exactly the door distance such that when two high speed sets couple together, the door positions still match.

 

[stuu]

Moderator note; split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stand-behind-the-line.233996/#post-5741241

Hopefully all new stations will have platform doors installed and old stations will have them retrofitted, ending the dangerous situation of people falling onto the track.

How often does this happen, by accident? Once or twice a year perhaps resulting in a fatality? PSDs cost millions per platform. Fatalities are valued from the point of view of evaluating safety at ~£4m, so you could justify fitting one or two platforms per year

 

[HSTEd]

I would love to have PSDs all over the place, simply because it is likely a necessary step into the future of ever increasing automation.

But a PSD rollout would be the work of decades, given rolling stock lifetimes and the need to standardise door patterns as part of such a rollout.
I also imagine PSDs would be opposed by the Unions

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As soon as trains with door positions incompatible with the 345s are gone from the line, install platform doors there. Replace the old trains with new ones with door positions compatible with 345s.

But IETs are around the same age as 345s, so they’ll still be stopping at places like Reading and Maidenhead for a long time to come!

 

[zwk500]

I would love to have PSDs all over the place, simply because it is likely a necessary step into the future of ever increasing automation.

But a PSD rollout would be the work of decades, given rolling stock lifetimes and the need to standardise door patterns as part of such a rollout.
I also imagine PSDs would be opposed by the Unions

I would support PSDs being rolled out in areas with metro-style frequency and usage. E.g. Thameslink, Merseyrail, Leeds Suburban and Birmingham Cross-City lines. Those that aren't already could then be moved to DOO for good measure. I don't think PSDs would ever be justified on rural routes like the S&C and West highland with frequencies at 1tph or below.

 

[miklcct]

How often does this happen, by accident? Once or twice a year perhaps resulting in a fatality? PSDs cost millions per platform. Fatalities are valued from the point of view of evaluating safety at ~£4m, so you could justify fitting one or two platforms per year

The process of retrofitting PSDs on the former MTR network in Hong Kong started in about 2000 despite the rail company claimed in 1992 that, the platform design didn't allow to do so, initially only for underground (literal) stations. As a result it's said that the real motivative to do so was to save air conditioning costs at underground stations. The project was estimated to cost HK$2bn for 30 stations with 74 platforms. In order to fund construction of the PSDs rail fares were increased by HK$0.1 (approximately 1p) per trip until HK$1bn, which was estimated to take 15 years. The project was completed by 2006.

As full-height platform doors can't be used on overground stations due to ventilation requirement, the project initially didn't include overground stations. After further study another project was made to retrofit half-height platform doors onto overground stations, costing about HK$300M in total for 8 stations (16 platforms) under the same financial arrangement, making the total collected from the surcharge HK$1.15bn.

The surcharge ceased to be collected from 2013 when the amount collected reached HK$1.13bn, while a scandal that the "surcharge" was found to be included for fare increase purpose, making the real surcharge actually became about HK$0.12 rather than HK$0.1 by then.

As a result, I think that funding platform gate installation by means of an extra 5p fare increase can be a viable option, at least in urban networks. The MTR network has already proven that such retrofitting is possible even the original design didn't allow so.

 

[ac6000cw]

How often does this happen, by accident? Once or twice a year perhaps resulting in a fatality? PSDs cost millions per platform. Fatalities are valued from the point of view of evaluating safety at ~£4m, so you could justify fitting one or two platforms per year

These are latest 'Passenger fatalities and injuries' statistics from ORR - https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/1440/5230-passenger-injuries.ods

Basically, if look back over the last decade or so, 'Platform-train interface' fatalities were between 0 and 2 per annum (so call it an average of 1), and severe injuries have steadily declined from around 200+ per annum a decade ago to 22 in 2018-2109 (which I assume is mostly due to a serious effort by the industry to reduce them - more yellow lines, signs, announcements, tactile paving, management of platform overcrowding etc. I guess)

The severe injuries due to 'Slips, trips and falls' are a lot higher, but again they have reduced considerably over the last decade.

 

[Falcon1200]

I would support PSDs being rolled out in areas with metro-style frequency and usage. E.g. Thameslink, Merseyrail, Leeds Suburban and Birmingham Cross-City lines. Those that aren't already could then be moved to DOO for good measure. I don't think PSDs would ever be justified on rural routes like the S&C and West highland with frequencies at 1tph or below.

Given the figures quoted above I cannot see how Platform Edge Doors (where does PSD come from ?!!) can ever be justified except in a very few specific circumstances, such as those where they already exist. The cost outweighs the benefit to an incredible, and utterly unmanageable, level.

 

[zwk500]

Given the figures quoted above I cannot see how Platform Edge Doors (where does PSD come from ?!!) can ever be justified except in a very few specific circumstances, such as those where they already exist. The cost outweighs the benefit to an incredible, and utterly unmanageable, level.

Platform Screen Doors, an alternative term. Possibly a very slight technical difference, I'm not sure.

 

[Falcon1200]

Platform Screen Doors, an alternative term. Possibly a very slight technical difference, I'm not sure.

Thanks, possibly PEDs has negative connotations too.....

 

[Basil Jet]

While I don't don't want to get bogged down in the true benefits and costs, I have to say that as an enthusiast I feel cheated by PEDs. I certainly never felt that the inter-terminal transit at Gatwick was a proper train, I thought of it as a lift that went horizontally instead of vertically. A few limited systems like the Elizabeth Line may have them, but if they become the norm, they will kill the hobby.

 

[Hadders]

We shall start with the 345s running on the Elizabeth line as they already have platform doors installed.

As soon as trains with door positions incompatible with the 345s are gone from the line, install platform doors there. Replace the old trains with new ones with door positions compatible with 345s.

Repeat the process over the next half century, by that time all current trains will be life expired and all trains by then will have door positions compatible with the 345s.

Yes, Stevenage.

Apologies for the typo, meant to say 317s not 318s!

You could’ve added 365s and HST and Mark 3 carriages to the list until recently but sadly they don’t exist any longer. 313s could still visit, I suspect.

 

[zwk500]

While I don't don't want to get bogged down in the true benefits and costs, I have to say that as an enthusiast I feel cheated by PEDs. I certainly never felt that the inter-terminal transit at Gatwick was a proper train, I thought of it as a lift that went horizontally instead of vertically. A few limited systems like the Elizabeth Line may have them, but if they become the norm, they will kill the hobby.

I think, all other things being equal, this would be an acceptable price of progress.

However, as stated above, Platform doors will not become the norm. We haven't managed to rebuild existing platforms to much less stringent standards for stepping distance, tactile paving, etc. The chances of us suddenly now being able to rebuild every platform to be suitable for PEDs is nil.

 

[Revilo]

Looking forward to seeing PEDs at St Keyne Wishing Well Halt.