Could all stations get Platform Edge Doors?

[stuu]

While I don't don't want to get bogged down in the true benefits and costs, I have to say that as an enthusiast I feel cheated by PEDs. I certainly never felt that the inter-terminal transit at Gatwick was a proper train, I thought of it as a lift that went horizontally instead of vertically. A few limited systems like the Elizabeth Line may have them, but if they become the norm, they will kill the hobby.

Not that it will ever happen, but generally outdoor ones tend to be about 1-1.2m high, rather than full height, so not quite as intrusive

 

[Wolfie]

While I don't don't want to get bogged down in the true benefits and costs, I have to say that as an enthusiast I feel cheated by PEDs. I certainly never felt that the inter-terminal transit at Gatwick was a proper train, I thought of it as a lift that went horizontally instead of vertically. A few limited systems like the Elizabeth Line may have them, but if they become the norm, they will kill the hobby.

Without wishing to be rude your hobby is not more important than passenger safety. If such devices significantly improve safety, which from what I've seen so far they don't in general, then they should be widely rolled out.

 

[Bald Rick]

No. It won’t happen.

interestingly, I gather that one of the Paris metro lines has converted to UTO (completely unattended) without Platform doors.

 

[Wolfie]

No. It won’t happen.

interestingly, I gather that one of the Paris metro lines has converted to UTO (completely unattended) without Platform doors.

Suggests that the French appetite to accept risk is very different to that in UK.

 

[stuu]

No. It won’t happen.

interestingly, I gather that one of the Paris metro lines has converted to UTO (completely unattended) without Platform doors.

Lyon Ligne B has done that, all the Paris ones are getting PSDs. Ligne D has run automatically without PSDs for 30 years

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I just want to add that although I don't think it will (nor think it should happen), different door layouts and train types do not have to be an obstacle. Half-height (4ft ish) arriers a short distance from the platform is, perhaps a little bit further from the track that where the current yellow lines are, could work. Keep them closed (keeping passengers in the centre of the platform away from the edge) until the train stops, then open them and passengers can walk along the platform on the train side of the barriers to the train doors if necessary.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lyon Ligne B has done that, all the Paris ones are getting PSDs. Ligne D has run automatically without PSDs for 30 years

ah, yes you’re quite right it is Lyon. My mistake.

 

[Mikw]

They're very expensive, aren't they? Sure that will play a part in any decision.

 

[PTR 444]

Realistically if we are to get platform edge doors anywhere on the National Rail network, the most likely candidates would be Merseyrail and the Thameslink core since these are busy urban networks which all use a single type of rolling stock. There are several other lines only served by just one class of train, but many of these are rural branch lines and having (10ft?) PEDs installed would detract from the scenery in the area, making them unpopular with locals and tourists.

 

[Falcon1200]

Half-height (4ft ish) arriers a short distance from the platform is, perhaps a little bit further from the track that where the current yellow lines are, could work. Keep them closed (keeping passengers in the centre of the platform away from the edge) until the train stops, then open them and passengers can walk along the platform on the train side of the barriers to the train doors if necessary.

Interesting idea, but would it not cause congestion and conflict between passengers alighting from and joining trains at busy times ?

Platform barriers, as opposed to screen doors, do already exist of course, at stations on four-track routes where stopping trains normally only use two; The GW and GE main lines for example. But the accident figures quoted earlier make it unlikely that a set-up described by TT-ONR-NRN could be justified on the Relief/Slow line sides at places like, say, Tilehurst or Maryland, where some trains pass through at speed.

 

[Neptune]

I would support PSDs being rolled out in areas with metro-style frequency and usage. E.g. Thameslink, Merseyrail, Leeds Suburban and Birmingham Cross-City lines. Those that aren't already could then be moved to DOO for good measure. I don't think PSDs would ever be justified on rural routes like the S&C and West highland with frequencies at 1tph or below.

I can’t honestly think of a single route on the Leeds suburban network where it would be remotely possible as no route has a single stock type allocated to it.

Most diesel routes are a mix of any of 150, 155 (occasionally), 158, 170, 185 & 195. The electric routes even inter-mingle with other traffic with the exception of the Ilkley line and I’m fairly certain that 331 and 333 doors will not both line up in the same place with PEDs. Also many suburban services on certain routes mix with other stock types including 800/801/802 (Wakefield W, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Garforth, Cross Gates, Shipley, Keighley, Skipton, Bradford FS, Horsforth, Harrogate). 91+mkIV (Wakefield W, Skipton, Keighley, Shipley). 68+mkV stock (Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Garforth). Class 180 (Bradford I, Low Moor, Halifax, Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield K, Pontefract M).

Then throw into the mix Leeds station itself and other stations connected to the commuter network such as Selby, York and Doncaster and you can see that it would be a non starter for Leeds suburban.

The only routes that could ever be conceivably considered for this are ones such as Merseyrail & Tyne & Wear Metro.

I don’t honestly know what the OP thinks is even remotely practical about this idea unless they themselves are going to finance it with a spare £50bn they have (complete guess on that price and it’s probably well north of that cost). This is the sort of knee jerk, hair brained idea the government would come up with then very quickly retract when they realised how much it would cost and how completely unrealistic a proposition it would be. Mind you with this current government…………..

 

[Western Lord]

Outdoor platform edge doors would be a maintenance nightmare much like outdoor escalators. Blown about in the wind, clogged up with leaves, snow, litter etc. rain getting into the electrics and no doubt in many places attacked by vandals. They would also probably quickly weather and become opaque.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Outdoor platform edge doors would be a maintenance nightmare much like outdoor escalators. Blown about in the wind, clogged up with leaves, snow, litter etc. rain getting into the electrics and no doubt in many places attacked by vandals. They would also probably quickly weather and become opaque.

On routes like Merseyrail where there'll only be one kind of stock, there is one thing that could be done that is a "half way house" in safety terms - metal fences but no actual doors, just a gap where they go, roughly in line with the yellow line or even right by the edge. You'd not dispatch until that fenced dispatch corridor was clear, and they provide an obvious place to queue to board. I've seen that approach in a few places, e.g. the Kuala Lumpur Monorail.

Deutsche Bahn also requires this for routes where trains pass occupied platforms above (I think) 160km/h. Theirs are further back to allow for trains with differing door positions, and are in effect more like Manchester Piccadilly's red line - a picture here - this might be worthy of consideration for the likes of Picc.

Platform fences - Wikimedia Commons

 

[Brush 4]

There are far more people who step or fall off a kerb around the country. Pavements are way more dangerous than platforms statistically, therefore if platforms are to have doors, all pavements and paths will need them except at zebra/pelican crossings and save far more lives. Yeah right...... Some people jump or fall from bridges over rail and road. You can't prevent every possible danger or hazard. people have to take responsibility for themselves.

 

[SteveM70]

I’d have loved to have seen platform edge doors when the Northern random unit generator was at its peak. Utter chaos

 

[Bald Rick]

Realistically if we are to get platform edge doors anywhere on the National Rail network, the most likely candidates would be Merseyrail and the Thameslink core since these are busy urban networks which all use a single type of rolling stock. There are several other lines only served by just one class of train, but many of these are rural branch lines and having (10ft?) PEDs installed would detract from the scenery in the area, making them unpopular with locals and tourists.

it was actually looked at for the Thameslink core, but it’s not physically possible, at least not without demolishing large swathes of St Pancras, Farringdon and Ludgate. All of the platforms concerned are too curved horizontally or vertically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it was actually looked at for the Thameslink core, but it’s not physically possible, at least not without demolishing large swathes of St Pancras, Farringdon and Ludgate. All of the platforms concerned are too curved horizontally or vertically.

I refer the poster to the Lausanne Metro if vertical curving/gradient is seen as an issue!

 

[stuu]

it was actually looked at for the Thameslink core, but it’s not physically possible, at least not without demolishing large swathes of St Pancras, Farringdon and Ludgate. All of the platforms concerned are too curved horizontally or vertically.

Paris has installed doors on stations which are at least as curved as anything on Thameslink... I assume they must allow a bigger gap between the doors and the train than the UK would?

 

[zwk500]

I refer the poster to the Lausanne Metro if vertical curving/gradient is seen as an issue!

Are any of Lausanne Metro Line 2's stations vertically curved though? The pictures I've found seem to show it's a consistent gradient through the length of the platforms. Unlike City Thameslink with the raised Platform ends and Farringdon with it's snaky platform alignments.

 

[Bald Rick]

I refer the poster to the Lausanne Metro if vertical curving/gradient is seen as an issue!

the Lausanne metro doors are all on dead straight track with consistent gradients. Steep gradients, granted.

Paris has installed doors on stations which are at least as curved as anything on Thameslink... I assume they must allow a bigger gap between the doors and the train than the UK would?

that‘s interesting, as the curvature at the south end of Farringdon and St Pancras is very tight.

 

[stuu]

that‘s interesting, as the curvature at the south end of Farringdon and St Pancras is very tight.

Denfert-Rocheraeu on Line 4 is pretty tightly curved. Of course it helps that the train doors are much closer together with shorter cars as well, so it's not a great comparison

 

[43066]

No. It won’t happen.

interestingly, I gather that one of the Paris metro lines has converted to UTO (completely unattended) without Platform doors.

Suggests that the French appetite to accept risk is very different to that in UK.

Not so very different to the DLR, I suppose. It isn’t fully UTO but the “Train Captain” won’t necessarily be in the driving position, or even anywhere near the front of the train. There are no platform doors, even on the underground bit, and AIUI no way of easily stopping an approaching train if someone is on the track.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not so very different to the DLR, I suppose. It isn’t fully UTO but the “Train Captain” won’t necessarily be in the driving position, or even anywhere near the front of the train. There are no platform doors, even on the underground bit, and AIUI no way of easily stopping an approaching train if someone is on the track.

but they do supervise the door closure, which is the critical bit.

 

[miklcct]

You can't prevent every possible danger or hazard. people have to take responsibility for themselves.

I'm afraid of the situation when the are too many people waiting for a train on a narrow ungated platform, there will inevitably be cases where people are inadvertently pushed / fall onto the track by the incoming crowd, or get blown into the gap when a non-stop train passes through a crowded platform. (I can imagine Stratford)

it was actually looked at for the Thameslink core, but it’s not physically possible, at least not without demolishing large swathes of St Pancras, Farringdon and Ludgate. All of the platforms concerned are too curved horizontally or vertically.

Which Thameslink stations are too curved?

 

[Neptune]

As on the thread re ticket barriering every station has this been costed by the OP?

As rail has a finite budget and again we are talking an industry that is to tighten its belt should this proposal actually happen what has to be sacrificed to enable it to happen.

Track maintenance? I suggest that more fatalities be caused by a lack of that rather than a lack of PED’s.

 

[stuu]

but they do supervise the door closure, which is the critical bit.

But what difference does that actually make? We have completely automated people movers at airports, and to my knowledge they don't kill people. In fact with two sets of doors isn't there slightly more risk of someone/something getting trapped?

 

[trebor79]

It will also work if the doors of different trains are at standardized locations.

For example, a carriage is always 23 m long and can have at most 5 pairs of doors. If the train has 3 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1, 3 and 5; if it has 2 pairs of doors they will be at positions 1 and 5, or 2 and 5 if position 1 is occupied by the toilet.

No, carriages aren't always 23m long. And the positions of the pairs of doors can differ. And what about stock that only has one door per carriage (745/755)?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm afraid of the situation when the are too many people waiting for a train on a narrow ungated platform, there will inevitably be cases where people are inadvertently pushed / fall onto the track by the incoming crowd, or get blown into the gap when a non-stop train passes through a crowded platform. (I can imagine Stratford)

So is that actually a realistic worry, supported by statistics. When was the last example of it happening in a British station? In my experience a station would usually be closed by staff well before platform capacity was overwhelmed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which Thameslink stations are too curved?

all 4 in the core.

St Pancras at the south end
City vertically
Blackfriars at the south end (although that was borderline)
Farringdon everywhere!

But what difference does that actually make? We have completely automated people movers at airports, and to my knowledge they don't kill people. In fact with two sets of doors isn't there slightly more risk of someone/something getting trapped?

I might be wrong but I think all the automated people movers at airports in the U.K. have PEDs. Some of that will be as much for security reasons though.

But I agree with the broad sentiment. However I think the risk is slightly reduced with PEDs - if someone / something is trapped platform side, and the system doesn’t detect it, then with PEDs they will stay where they are (possibly painfully). Without PEDs they may go with the train (possibly terminally).

For example, a carriage is always 23 m long and can have at most 5 pairs of doors.

Class 345s are, of course, formed of coaches that are 22.5 metres long, except for those that are 23.6 metres long. Meanwhile their sister units have coaches 24.2m long (Class 720), 20 / 21.4m (Class 710).

No units in service on the national network have 5 pairs of doors (per side, one assumes you meant)

 

[pne]

Looking forward to seeing PEDs at St Keyne Wishing Well Halt.

They would go well with the ticket barriers installed at the entrance to the station and the passenger information screens showing the "next fastest train to …" featuring at least Looe, Liskeard, and Coombe Junction Halt (which only a handful of trains call at, so you can't just use the "Liskeard" information).

Of course, if an intrepid Interrailer comes along with a ticket that doesn't operate the ticket barrier, you'll also need a person on site from about 0530 to 2200 who can operate the barrier; more likely, two people working in shifts (with a third for replacement during holidays or illness).

Since the guard on the train would presumably no longer sell tickets (the barriers make sure that nobody can board the train without one, after all), there would also have to be a TVM, as well as a ticket office (outside the barriers) to sell things such as a family return to Bodmin including a ride on the Bodmin & Wenford Railway, a ticket to London CIV, a "Ride Cornwall" ranger, or simply a season ticket, which a TVM would probably not be able to handle. This would require another three people, since if the ticket office person also operated the barriers, you might have the situation that someone is unable to purchase a ticket before their train leaves if the staff member is currently helping someone through the barriers and thus had to close the ticket window temporarily.

The ticket office could also have a window facing the platform, for people who have travelled from an ungated and unstaffed station to pay their fare before being able to exit the barriers, until the time when all stations on the entire GB rail network have been upgraded to use ticket barriers. (I assume this would take more than a weekend.)