Could an HST have worked Belfast-Dublin?

[102 fan]

With some of the HST fleet being reduced and moving to Scotland, would an HST set have been a suitable Belfast to Dublin set?

I mean as a new build in the late 90's.

 

[edwin_m]

Could probably have built some power cars to the Irish gauge, as of course the Mk3s were, but the power car design was over 20 years old by then so they might have wanted something more up to date. The power:weight ratio would probably have been a bit high too, for a line that gets nowhere near 125mph.

 

[102 fan]

Could probably have built some power cars to the Irish gauge, as of course the Mk3s were, but the power car design was over 20 years old by then so they might have wanted something more up to date. The power:weight ratio would probably have been a bit high too, for a line that gets nowhere near 125mph.

Isn't the acceleration good on them as well?

 

[hexagon789]

With some of the HST fleet being reduced and moving to Scotland, would an HST set have been a suitable Belfast to Dublin set?

I mean as a new build in the late 90's.

Surely the De-Dietrich coaches effectively covered this, unless you mean new-build HSTs instead of the joint NIE/IR order of the late-1990s?

 

[Tetchytyke]

As a new build in the 90s, as a new build now, as a conversion now or what?

No reason why not- HSTs made it to Australia as the XPT after all!

 

[edwin_m]

Isn't the acceleration good on them as well?

The tractive effort at low speeds is actually pretty poor. But maybe re-gearing for a lower maximum speed would have helped.

 

[duesselmartin]

The biggest problem in that route is track condidtion in the North and DART congestion in the south. A HST would ve a wasted resource unless these issues are addressed.

 

[jopsuk]

no manufacturer would have taken on building such an outdated design in the late 90s. Even if ordered in the mid 80s, the more likely setup would have been a loco+ driving trailer (the "suburban" mark 3s for IE had what would be classed as a DBSO in Britain), and they would have had (like the main IE fleet of Mark 3s) power doors. The most likely might have been a full fleet of coaches built to the specification of the "International" coaches that BREL built (as IE did buy that rake once the promotional push was over)

 

[hexagon789]

no manufacturer would have taken on building such an outdated design in the late 90s. Even if ordered in the mid 80s, the more likely setup would have been a loco+ driving trailer (the "suburban" mark 3s for IE had what would be classed as a DBSO in Britain), and they would have had (like the main IE fleet of Mark 3s) power doors. The most likely might have been a full fleet of coaches built to the specification of the "International" coaches that BREL built (as IE did buy that rake once the promotional push was over)

I'd argue that specification is exactly what materialised in the De-Dietrich stock though based on the Eurostar interiors rather than the BREL International train

 

[jopsuk]

the De-Dietrech stock though isn't just Eurostar interiors, it is very similar construction (but as separate coaches, not shared bogies) to Eurostar, whilst the International set was a small evolution from the Mark 3 construction and systems. They're a of a different generation in terms of construction design.

 

[snookertam]

Is there an issue with the enterprise stock just now? I saw someone on YouTube saying that the route is currently covered by IE and NIR DMUs for now.

 

[duesselmartin]

Is there an issue with the enterprise stock just now? I saw someone on YouTube saying that the route is currently covered by IE and NIR DMUs for now.

Seems to be the norm since Covid19 (?).

 

[randyrippley]

If I've read the wiki article correctly, it seems that the Australian arm of ABB delivered a follow-on order of XPT power cars in around 1991, so the ability to build them still existed. Also the lower gearing would have been more suitable for Ireland. Gauge would have been the issue

 

[43096]

If I've read the wiki article correctly, it seems that the Australian arm of ABB delivered a follow-on order of XPT power cars in around 1991, so the ability to build them still existed. Also the lower gearing would have been more suitable for Ireland. Gauge would have been the issue

January 1993 was when the last XPT power car was delivered.

 

[snookertam]

Seems to be the norm since Covid19 (?).

I was wondering if it might be connected, but them I’m not sure what the logic would be. You’d think keeping the longer loco hauled sets would be more beneficial than shorter 3 car DMUs. Also noticed how similar the 22000 class are to class 170s in some aspects. What the 170s could’ve been I guess. I might be wide of the mark though.

 

[randyrippley]

I was wondering if it might be connected, but them I’m not sure what the logic would be. You’d think keeping the longer loco hauled sets would be more beneficial than shorter 3 car DMUs. Also noticed how similar the 22000 class are to class 170s in some aspects. What the 170s could’ve been I guess. I might be wide of the mark though.

shorter set = less cleaning, less maintenance - fairly important when support staff are off ill or isolating

 

[jopsuk]

XPT power cars were a heavily modified design, and obviously the coaches have no relationship to Mark 3s The early 90s built power cars also made sense as a fleet commonality measure.

Anyone in a position of power that seriously suggested that the solution to replacing the Mark 2s, in the mid 90s, was a special new build of a design from 1975 would have been laughed out a job. The only possible route to HSTs being used would have been if GNER, Great Western or Midland Mainline had carried out a very rapid replacement of their HST fleets, resulting in sets being available in ~1998, although of course by then the DD stock was already in service.

(or a wild alt history where, in the 70s, a joint project had been undertaken to upgrade Dublin-Belfast to 125mph and a fleet ordered then)

 

[43096]

XPT power cars were a heavily modified design, and obviously the coaches have no relationship to Mark 3s

That last part is not wholly true: there are some very Mark 3 elements in the interior, including vestibule door area and lighting.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

I think there was actually a serious proposal for Mk3s on Belfast-Dublin, around 1989. The intention was that they'd be hauled by the existing 071/111 class locomotives (though I've also read that a frequency increase was proposed, presumably through journey time improvements and tighter diagramming), and that the infrastructure would be upgraded for 90 mph. There would have been a joint pool of stock in a common livery (as is the case with the De Dietrichs). I assume the Mk3s would have resembled the Irish intercity examples, although I don't know whether it was proposed to build them at Inchicore or Derby. This plan never went anywhere, apparently due to the IRA bombing campaign against the line at the time (though austerity in the Republic may also have been a factor); it re-emerged a few years later, but with the De Dietrich stock and 201/208 class locos. The infrastructure aspects of the 1990s upgrade seem to have been broadly in line with the original proposal.

 

[hexagon789]

Is there an issue with the enterprise stock just now? I saw someone on YouTube saying that the route is currently covered by IE and NIR DMUs for now.

The Dublin-Cork route is also all units. They are much cheaper to run. All the Mk4 sets are stored.

I think there was actually a serious proposal for Mk3s on Belfast-Dublin, around 1989. The intention was that they'd be hauled by the existing 071/111 class locomotives (though I've also read that a frequency increase was proposed, presumably through journey time improvements and tighter diagramming), and that the infrastructure would be upgraded for 90 mph. There would have been a joint pool of stock in a common livery (as is the case with the De Dietrichs). I assume the Mk3s would have resembled the Irish intercity examples, although I don't know whether it was proposed to build them at Inchicore or Derby. This plan never went anywhere, apparently due to the IRA bombing campaign against the line at the time (though austerity in the Republic may also have been a factor); it re-emerged a few years later, but with the De Dietrich stock and 201/208 class locos. The infrastructure aspects of the 1990s upgrade seem to have been broadly in line with the original proposal.

I understood they would've been provided from the normal fleet before it was decided that the last 24 coaches were to be push-pull suburbans instead of InterCity coaches.

The original order was for 15 Generator Vans (all built as intended), 15 Diners and 94 Standards. Only 13 Diners and 72 "Standards" were built. The remainder were built as the push-pull fleet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Gauge would have been the issue

Not really- the loading gauge in Ireland is very similar to GB, just the track gauge is different. There's a long history of similar designs being used on either side of the Irish Sea, and of stock being transferred over and re-gauged. If there had been a requirement or desire to transfer surplus HSTs for use on the Enterprise it would have been relatively simple to do.

Edit: realised you meant the gauge difference between Australia's XPTs and Irish gauge. Not sure if the XPTs are standard gauge or one of the multitude of weird gauges (including Irish IIRC) also in use down under. In any case, track gauge is still less of an issue than loading gauge would be.

 

[USRailFan]

Not really- the loading gauge in Ireland is very similar to GB, just the track gauge is different. There's a long history of similar designs being used on either side of the Irish Sea, and of stock being transferred over and re-gauged. If there had been a requirement or desire to transfer surplus HSTs for use on the Enterprise it would have been relatively simple to do.

Edit: realised you meant the gauge difference between Australia's XPTs and Irish gauge. Not sure if the XPTs are standard gauge or one of the multitude of weird gauges (including Irish IIRC) also in use down under. In any case, track gauge is still less of an issue than loading gauge would be.

The Aussie XPTs are standard-gauge. AFAIK the powercars are pretty much identical to the UK ones apart from lower max speed, but the intermediate cars are custom (although use the same bogies).

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

I understood they would've been provided from the normal fleet before it was decided that the last 24 coaches were to be push-pull suburbans instead of InterCity coaches.

The original order was for 15 Generator Vans (all built as intended), 15 Diners and 94 Standards. Only 13 Diners and 72 "Standards" were built. The remainder were built as the push-pull fleet.

Thanks - that makes sense. I believe the later Mk3s were diverted to suburban push-pull use because the Irish government was unwilling to fund DMUs at the time, but that's another story.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks - that makes sense. I believe the later Mk3s were diverted to suburban push-pull use because the Irish government was unwilling to fund DMUs at the time, but that's another story.

Yes that's correct, though it wasn't too long until Irish Rail got its 2600 Class "Arrow" suburban railcars in 1993/4. Still running today on local services.

 

[jopsuk]

The Aussie XPTs are standard-gauge. AFAIK the powercars are pretty much identical to the UK ones apart from lower max speed, but the intermediate cars are custom (although use the same bogies).

The XPT units are half a metre shorter in length and 0.3m higher, and 2.5t heavier, according to the sources I can find

 

[berneyarms]

Is there an issue with the enterprise stock just now? I saw someone on YouTube saying that the route is currently covered by IE and NIR DMUs for now.

Seems to be the norm since Covid19 (?).

I was wondering if it might be connected, but them I’m not sure what the logic would be. You’d think keeping the longer loco hauled sets would be more beneficial than shorter 3 car DMUs. Also noticed how similar the 22000 class are to class 170s in some aspects. What the 170s could’ve been I guess. I might be wide of the mark though.

shorter set = less cleaning, less maintenance - fairly important when support staff are off ill or isolating

The Enterprise stock actually returned to service in August and the full timetable was restored on August 31.

It was purely a Covid-19 measure - demand had also collapsed for the service during the summer.

The Dublin-Cork route is also all units. They are much cheaper to run. All the Mk4 sets are stored.

That's incorrect. The Mark 4 fleet returned to service when the full timetable was restored on August 31.
Again, it was a purely Covid-19 measure.

 

[hexagon789]

That's incorrect. The Mark 4 fleet returned to service when the full timetable was restored on August 31.
Again, it was a purely Covid-19 measure.

Apologies, I hadn't seen anything to say they been put back into service.

 

[102 fan]

XPT power cars were a heavily modified design, and obviously the coaches have no relationship to Mark 3s The early 90s built power cars also made sense as a fleet commonality measure.

Anyone in a position of power that seriously suggested that the solution to replacing the Mark 2s, in the mid 90s, was a special new build of a design from 1975 would have been laughed out a job. The only possible route to HSTs being used would have been if GNER, Great Western or Midland Mainline had carried out a very rapid replacement of their HST fleets, resulting in sets being available in ~1998, although of course by then the DD stock was already in service.

(or a wild alt history where, in the 70s, a joint project had been undertaken to upgrade Dublin-Belfast to 125mph and a fleet ordered then)

A design from 1975 that's still in use on the GB rail network, obviously a bad design.......

 

[jopsuk]

A design from 1975 that's still in use on the GB rail network, obviously a bad design.......

It's a good design. It's fine. There's probably going to be none left in normal traffic in about a decade. It's an excellent design if you're building in 1975. It's a just about ok design if you're building in 1989. It's an outdated design if you're building in 1993, and really not acceptable design if you were building in 1999. Technology (including crashworthiness) marches on. Mark 3s (and for that matter BR Mark 4s, I've no idea about the IE ones) are pretty ropy as far as roll over strength goes (and eg a Pendolino has demonstrably excellent performance in such situations).

Mark 1s are still in use on preserved lines and on mainline charters, and I'm sure we're all very aware of the problems with those.

 

[edwin_m]

(and eg a Pendolino has demonstrably excellent performance in such situations).

In one such situation. That proves nothing and I wish people would stop claiming it did. There are plenty of accidents where Mk3s have survived as well as the Pendolino did at Grayrigg.