Could Class 365s be used to provide local services on the ECML between Berwick and Peterborough?

[Jonny]

There's no reason that ScotRail can't keep them on in the short to medium term, but could they be used to provide local services on the ECML between Berwick and Peterborough (with all points covered by a combination of services) once they're done in Scotland?

 

[YorkshireBear]

There's no reason that ScotRail can't keep them on in the short to medium term, but could they be used to provide local services on the ECML between Berwick and Peterborough (with all points covered by a combination of services) once they're done in Scotland?

You are well and truly stepping into a fantasy thread there. Probably best to leave future use of 365s outside ScotRail to another thread.

 

[Clansman]

But could they be used to provide local services on the ECML between Berwick and Peterborough (with all points covered by a combination of services) once they're done in Scotland?

In the nicest way possible, no. As nice as it would be for yourself if they did, in no franchise agreement for any TOC serving the ECML is there any requirement to provide such a service. First of all, who'd run them, what case is there to run them, and where would they find the additional paths from? Perhaps this is a topic for a new dedicated thread on the proposal.

 

[deltic08]

In the nicest way possible, no. As nice as it would be for yourself if they did, in no franchise agreement for any TOC serving the ECML is there any requirement to provide such a service. First of all, who'd run them, what case is there to run them, and where would they find the additional paths from? Perhaps this is a topic for a new dedicated thread on the proposal.

Replacing Pacers on local services between Newcastle and Berwick? Faster acceleration and 25mph faster top speed. It might generate more traffic to justify four cars.

 

[Clansman]

Replacing Pacers on local services between Newcastle and Berwick? Faster acceleration and 25mph faster top speed. It might generate more traffic to justify four cars.

Already accounted for in the Northern franchise where the Pacers are being replaced by new build stock by 2020. Traffic rarely changes even when 156s are used on the Chathill locals, so clearly the rolling stock doesn't influence passenger traffic, and there's nothing to suggest that the current patronage figures would sky rocket if the journey time was faster. Furthermore TPE service extensions from Newcastle to Edinburgh and the new First East Coast open access services will take Berwick to Newcastle and beyond up to a minimum 3tph frequency during peak times.

 

[deltic08]

Already accounted for in the Northern franchise where the Pacers are being replaced by new build stock by 2020. Traffic rarely changes even when 156s are used on the Chathill locals, so clearly the rolling stock doesn't influence passenger traffic, and there's nothing to suggest that the current patronage figures would sky rocket if the journey time was faster. Furthermore TPE service extensions from Newcastle to Edinburgh and the new First East Coast open access services will take Berwick to Newcastle and beyond up to a minimum 3tph frequency during peak times.

But 156 use here is only spasmodic as is Newcastle-Morpeth and still diesel under the wires. You have no knowledge of what could happen if Pacers were replaced with 365s everyday and a slightly more frequent service other than two trains daily. Imagine missing the last train home to Chathill at 6pm? There isn't another one until the next day. I can't see TPE putting stops in for the smaller station in Northumberland. Use your 156 on the Carlisle route where 365s can't go to replace Pacers there. Have you not heard of sparks effect?

 

[Clansman]

You have no knowledge of what could happen if Pacers were replaced with 365s everyday and a slightly more frequent service other than two trains daily.?

You're right, but neither do you. The only things we have to go on is the usage figures, and the Northern franchise's take on the route itself. Taking those two into account, 365s aint going anywhere near Chathill any time soon. If there was benefit in doing so, similar changes would have happened already. As for the pacers, they're heading out the door anyway when the 195 and 331s come in, as planned, so there's nowt harm in letting the 365s go to the scrappy.

 

[td97]

Northern are unlikely to introduce a further EMU into their already varied fleet
Some Morpeth services are extended all the way to Carlisle so already is a non-starter
769 could be an option, but depends on how units are allocated based on Durham Coast/Middlesbrough routes as a 769 would be a waste on them, unless the Connect service runs via the ECML - but even then, a 769 wouldn't meet Connect standards

 

[alangla]

Doubt it, but potentially if there are moves towards opening some stations on the Dunbar to Berwick stretch then I could see them running an Edinburgh - limited stop to Dunbar - almost all stops to Newcastle service replacing Northern's Morpeth & Chathill services.

 

[Steamysandy]

Doubt it, but potentially if there are moves towards opening some stations on the Dunbar to Berwick stretch then I could see them running an Edinburgh - limited stop to Dunbar - almost all stops to Newcastle service replacing Northern's Morpeth & Chathill services.

I would agree with that idea.It would reinstate the lost connections south from stations in East Lothian to points south of Drem
Personal experience of trying to get from Longniddry to Reston without a car to go and see my cousin shows what a gap in overage there is.i might even be tempted to try and visit Alnmouth!!

 

[jopsuk]

it won't happen, but a an hourly Edinburgh-Drem and then all-stop to Newcastle, with all intercity trains removing all stops other than Berwick, would be interesting. Ideally though a few stations would be on loops (and Drem-Waverley 4 track) to allow the intercity services a clear run.

South of Newcastle there's an argument to be made that the ECML services should be rejigged a bit, but there's very few stations really and almost nowhere that, unless you built a New Town around it, that any additional stations would be worthwhile.

 

[47271]

I understand that as soon as they're done on the E&G they're going to be stored to be used to provide the local service on the dualled and electrified route between Edinburgh and Carlisle via Hawick. Four trains per hour serving Riccarton Jn New Town.

 

[Steamysandy]

I understand that as soon as they're done on the E&G they're going to be stored to be used to provide the local service on the dualled and electrified route between Edinburgh and Carlisle via Hawick. Four trains per hour serving Riccarton Jn New Town.

Routed via Langholm!

 

[Steamysandy]

I would agree with that idea.It would reinstate the lost connections south from stations in East Lothian to points south of Drem
Personal experience of trying to get from Longniddry to Reston without a car to go and see my cousin shows what a gap in overage there is.i might even be tempted to try and visit Alnmouth!!

Having just looked at the new Border Buses timetable,a train service to Grantshouse and Reston might become essential once again.The bus service was all but killed off in the late 1990s -its looking that way again!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

if there are any spare 365's about I wonder if Thameslink would like to take them back so they have some trains that their drivers are qualified to drive? {reaches for tin hat}

 

[Hadders]

if there are any spare 365's about I wonder if Thameslink would like to take them back so they have some trains that their drivers are qualified to drive? {reaches for tin hat}

A number of us on here have always thought this will happen! I understand that 365s were operating services to Ely yesterday.

 

[swt_passenger]

An article in Modern Railways a couple of months back suggested that the number of already planned long distance services (ECML, TPE, XC, OA) was probably enough to prevent any local stopper from operating. The author was pretty doubtful about proposals for additional “village stations” in Scotland, eg between Dunbar and the border, which could never hope too generate sufficient traffic...

 

[Clubby74]

An article in Modern Railways a couple of months back suggested that the number of already planned long distance services (ECML, TPE, XC, OA) was probably enough to prevent any local stopper from operating. The author was pretty doubtful about proposals for additional “village stations” in Scotland, eg between Dunbar and the border, which could never hope too generate sufficient traffic...

Not sure this view would be taken well in Reston or East Linton. Talk up here is a stopping service to Newcastle. These two stations and extra capacity of trains are becoming more necessary with the housing boom in East Lothian. Circa 10000 people in Musselburgh alone. This will put excess pressure on an oversaturated North Berwick service as it stands

 

[Steamysandy]

Not sure this view would be taken well in Reston or East Linton. Talk up here is a stopping service to Newcastle. These two stations and extra capacity of trains are becoming more necessary with the housing boom in East Lothian. Circa 10000 people in Musselburgh alone. This will put excess pressure on an oversaturated North Berwick service as it stands

I belatedly saw the item by Chris Stokes and wrote in saying what we needed is a Stopping service.The other thing is do we need FOUR Intercity type services every hour especially a Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service via Newcastle?

 

[takno]

I belatedly saw the item by Chris Stokes and wrote in saying what we needed is a Stopping service.The other thing is do we need FOUR Intercity type services every hour especially a Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service via Newcastle?

The intercity services connect the whole of Scotland to the North-East and Yorkshire, and all of Scotland north of the central belt plus the eastern side of the central belt to the North-East, Yorkshire and London. The trains that run at the moment aren't exactly running empty and aren't generally offering particularly cheap tickets, so yes you do need 4.

 

[nw1]

The intercity services connect the whole of Scotland to the North-East and Yorkshire, and all of Scotland north of the central belt plus the eastern side of the central belt to the North-East, Yorkshire and London. The trains that run at the moment aren't exactly running empty and aren't generally offering particularly cheap tickets, so yes you do need 4.

This is perhaps down to the philosophy of how you run a railway, though. It could be argued that you terminate two of those four at Newcastle and have through passengers transfer onto the other two, making the non-VTEC one longer (the VTEC one presumably is already at maximum length - but even that presumably would have additional space north of Newcastle as a lot of its passengers would be travelling London to Newcastle). This would free up paths for a stopping service serving new stations.

Disclaimer - I am not a local, but this is a philosophy that could apply elsewhere on the network; it could be argued that slightly fewer but longer inter-city services (the same or more number of seats with slightly less services, you could for example have two 10-coach trains replace three 5-coach), making people change for some of the less-popular through journeys, could, in some areas, benefit the railway by reducing congestion and giving scope for less profitable but more socially-needed services. Local services on inter-city routes are notably absent throughout the country away from the major urban areas, and have been since Beeching. Not sure that would happen in the current climate though - and I'm not proposing reducing the frequency of services on busy corridors like Reading Birmingham for instance.

 

[Steamysandy]

I am a local having lived between Dunbar and Longniddry for all of my 70 years but have had relatives living in Berwickshire.The all stations stoppers were withdrawn at the time of Beeching but it was sectorisation which broke the link between stations on the present North Berwick service and Dunbar and Berwick.As I've said elsewhere if you don't have a car a journey to Reston for example is either a long slow bus or a very roundabout trip doubling back at both ends such as relatives from Kirkcaldy having to be picked up at Berwick-upon-Tweed - 16 miles beyond their destination.
Yes there is also an enormous amount of Housebuilding going on all the way out from Edinburgh to Dunbar and this reinforces the need for a stopping service in addition to the North Berwick service
Finally for 12 years I lived within a couple of miles of East Linton station- but I had to drive to Drem daily to get the train while watching on occasion an empty train calling at the closed East Linton station to pick up railwaymen en route to Dunbar!

 

[takno]

This is perhaps down to the philosophy of how you run a railway, though. It could be argued that you terminate two of those four at Newcastle and have through passengers transfer onto the other two, making the non-VTEC one longer (the VTEC one presumably is already at maximum length - but even that presumably would have additional space north of Newcastle as a lot of its passengers would be travelling London to Newcastle). This would free up paths for a stopping service serving new stations.

Disclaimer - I am not a local, but this is a philosophy that could apply elsewhere on the network; it could be argued that slightly fewer but longer inter-city services (the same or more number of seats with slightly less services, you could for example have two 10-coach trains replace three 5-coach), making people change for some of the less-popular through journeys, could, in some areas, benefit the railway by reducing congestion and giving scope for less profitable but more socially-needed services. Local services on inter-city routes are notably absent throughout the country away from the major urban areas, and have been since Beeching. Not sure that would happen in the current climate though - and I'm not proposing reducing the frequency of services on busy corridors like Reading Birmingham for instance.

If you terminated the trains short at Newcastle then the passengers would fly or drive, which is one solution I guess. I'd be fully supportive of some four-tracking (with added suburban stations) or station loops out towards Drem, but at the end of the day Musselbrough is an easy bus ride from town. Cutting back Intercity services 100 miles (or 300 miles in the case of the Aberdeens) of their destination on a busy mainline just so you can fit a few more very local suburban passengers on a train is inane

 

[Steamysandy]

If you terminated the trains short at Newcastle then the passengers would fly or drive, which is one solution I guess. I'd be fully supportive of some four-tracking (with added suburban stations) or station loops out towards Drem, but at the end of the day Musselbrough is an easy bus ride from town. Cutting back Intercity services 100 miles (or 300 miles in the case of the Aberdeens) of their destination on a busy mainline just so you can fit a few more very local suburban passengers on a train is inane

No less insane than Four half empty trains an hour racing through an area which is deprived of a decent service to connect to these same trains!
By the way has Takno read the East Lothian local plan or Courier local paper lately? The scale of housebuilding is enormous and buses already are running pretty full

 

[takno]

No less insane than Four half empty trains an hour racing through an area which is deprived of a decent service to connect to these same trains!
By the way has Takno read the East Lothian local plan or Courier local paper lately? The scale of housebuilding is enormous and buses already are running pretty full

What makes you think the trains are running half empty? Most of the ones I've been on except for the very late services have been reasonably well-loaded. I don't read the courier but I am aware of the scale of house-building in the area, which is why I said I'd be supportive of adding extra infrastructure to support running more local trains. Hell I'd be all for running four tracks out to Portobello Jn just to get the Borders trains out of the way. You could even trying getting the house-builders to pay for it. I'd also note that all the local buses are now run by a competent expansionist operator who are more than capable of adding more buses into the schedule if they are running full.

What I'm not supportive of is restraining a busy intercity line from serving most of Scotland in order to fit a couple of four coach commuter trains in.

 

[Steamysandy]

I think you are only looking at the Edinburgh and Musselburgh area but while the buses could cope will the roads be able to cope with additional cars arising as a result of all the Housebuilding.The result a solid roadblock from Musselburgh to the city centre which ironically is close to what saved the North Berwick service. In 1969! (In those days there was no Musselburgh bypass)
Four tracks is being proposed between Wallyford and Drem whilst I believe Dunbar to Durham is also being studied so that is taking a. Sledgehammer to crack a nut
Meantime I still don't believe we need four expresses an hour whilst depriving an area of a decent public transport connection.

 

[takno]

I think you are only looking at the Edinburgh and Musselburgh area but while the buses could cope will the roads be able to cope with additional cars arising as a result of all the Housebuilding.The result a solid roadblock from Musselburgh to the city centre which ironically is close to what saved the North Berwick service. In 1969! (In those days there was no Musselburgh bypass)
Four tracks is being proposed between Wallyford and Drem whilst I believe Dunbar to Durham is also being studied so that is taking a. Sledgehammer to crack a nut
Meantime I still don't believe we need four expresses an hour whilst depriving an area of a decent public transport connection.

Okay, it's something you are welcome to believe, but as a regular traveller on them I wholly disagree. Bear in mind that even if we don't need them now there is a huge amount of development happening across the Lothians and in Fife, so by the time the new houses are up in East Lothian there will be plenty of new traffic for the long distance trains.

I certainly don't disagree that traffic coming from the east could get hellish with the new housebuilding going in, and there's definitely a need from comprehensive public transport solutions to deal with that, but the solution isn't to force even more of the London traffic onto planes and isolate Scotland from England.

 

[Steamysandy]

Okay, it's something you are welcome to believe, but as a regular traveller on them I wholly disagree. Bear in mind that even if we don't need them now there is a huge amount of development happening across the Lothians and in Fife, so by the time the new houses are up in East Lothian there will be plenty of new traffic for the long distance trains.

I certainly don't disagree that traffic coming from the east could get hellish with the new housebuilding going in, and there's definitely a need from comprehensive public transport solutions to deal with that, but the solution isn't to force even more of the London traffic onto planes and isolate Scotland from England.

Are the long distance trains the only thing that is going to benefit from these developments? I think you are over emphasising their importance..
There is also the West Coast route where I believe one train an hour could be slotted in
I would also suggest that future resignalllng East of Portobello would enable closer headways than at present and the present signalling is now based on a 30 year old model itself based on previous 1969 layouts.
I'm sure there are several options available but knowing the railways will they be taken up?
Incidentally within the past hour I've been asked by a lady why she can't get a train from Longniddry to Dunbar to visit her sister?