• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Could Double Deck trains be viable in the UK?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Teflon Lettuce

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2013
Messages
1,750
Yes the work was fundamentally linked to the electrification project because structure clearances would have to be improved for the wires anyway. While doing that, replacing a lot of over-bridge decks at considerable expense and disruption, the possibility of obtaining greater clearance for larger rolling stock could also be considered, which might include larger freight containers and allow DD passenger cars on a limited network, if suitable rolling stock could be obtained and operated on a useful range of longer distance commuter services within the specially gauge enhanced area. Structure clearance work has been a major problem for GWML electrification costs and timescales, and that is on a railway with fairly generous clearances already. As a stand alone project DD would not likely fly, because only a limited number of trains could be DD, with only the main line from say Waterloo to Southampton wired, at first at least, with most trains dual voltage to continue to run on to final destinations using DC power over unaltered infrastructure. When you get out into the wilds of Dorset the service density doesn't really warrant the major investment and seeing as most trains at the extremities work through to and from London, the DD stock can only be used on short workings or portions that get decoupled and don't go through to the country terminus.
which all brings me back to one of my original points... why not do the work to convert to DD when infrastructure projects are taking place anyway? all the work being done on GWR for example to electrify the line... including I assume rebuilding over bridges to accomodate wires.... what would have the extra cost have been to rebuild to accomodate DD's so that they can be operated in the future if so desired?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
31,992
which all brings me back to one of my original points... why not do the work to convert to DD when infrastructure projects are taking place anyway? all the work being done on GWR for example to electrify the line... including I assume rebuilding over bridges to accomodate wires.... what would have the extra cost have been to rebuild to accomodate DD's so that they can be operated in the future if so desired?

When new bridges over the railway are constructed, they are almost always built to GB+ gauge. Same goes for overbridge reconstruction, unless the practicalities and therefore cost of realigning approach roads etc is difficult. (For example, if you can rebuild as is without land take, but you need land take to go a higher gauge, then you stick with it as it is to avoid several years delay.) Tunnels are a different matter, I can only think of only one tunnel that have been completely rebuilt in the past quarter of a century (as opposed to simply regauged) and I don’t know whether it, Farnworth, was rebuilt to GB+. Plenty of other have been regauged, almost all by dropping the invert (some have been done twice, e.g. Ipswich) but it gets progressively more expensive by unit of depth the deeper you go.

To go back to the report; I happen to know one of the authors. Sensible chap. It was not written with the objective of dismissing double deck at all, although that was the effective result.

To re-answer the original question - why is double deck not considered at all: it is because this study, the Wessex study and plenty of other unpublished back of envelope studies have shown that the cost and in particular the disruption to existing services of regauging the whole network, is simply much greater than alternatives, which include building entirely new lines (see HS1, HS2, Crossrail 1, and dare I say Crossrail 2 and NPR, etc.). The new lines can also offer new connections and quicker journeyed, which double deck can not.
 

EastisECML

Member
Joined
26 Sep 2018
Messages
198
which all brings me back to one of my original points... why not do the work to convert to DD when infrastructure projects are taking place anyway? all the work being done on GWR for example to electrify the line... including I assume rebuilding over bridges to accomodate wires.... what would have the extra cost have been to rebuild to accomodate DD's so that they can be operated in the future if so desired?

I'm sure I've seen it mentioned that a bridge rebuilt over Paddington approaches and one over the Midland Mainline left enough room for double decker trains. DB Cargo wanted the Midland Mainline to be their continental gauge route to the North.

Conversely, you can build a new railway, serving the busy parts of the relevant line, without causing much disruption to existing services.

The reason various reports make out that it is difficult is because it IS difficult. Very. And much, much more expensive than building a new line. Hence HS2, HS1, and why Crossrail was built rather than upgrading the Central Line to heavy rail gauge.

I hope HS2 will be the beginning of a network of new lines which can operate a mix of captive and classic compatible services. Then it would be ideal to introduce double decker trains to the UK.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,379
Location
Liverpool
Outside captive high speed lines (If they ever happen) I can't see the UK ever having extensive use of double deck trains for many generations.
 

thaitransit

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2008
Messages
267
Location
Brisbane Queensland Australia
Sydney Australia has been using double deck metro trains for decades they are 2 + 3 seating lower deck and 2 + 3 or 2 + 2 seating on upper deck depending on train type. Sydney uses the same track gauge as the UK (1435mm) standard gauge. The XPT sets used on NSW trainlink are based on the GWR HST trains so there is a good chance NSW double deck stock would fit on the uk network.

However if the aim is to simply move more passengers per train. Then longer trains eg 16 car trains single deck would be the easiest way to go. At stations with short platforms passengers have to walk through to a car with a platform. An on train announcement a few minutes before the station gives time for passengers to get through to the correct car to exit.

Another option would be to purchase double deck DMU or locomotive hauled trains and de electrify thus allowing taller rolling stock without needing rebuild thousands of bridges especially on long distance routes.

In fact Victoria Australia has built brand new lines without electrification as even with trains every 7 minutes it was seen as far more costly to electrify than to use 6 car DMUs. They also de electrified a mainline to the east of Victoria about 15 years ago despite operating more trains today on that route.

Queensland Australia is facing a similar situation on the rockhampton line as currently only 2 trains a day operate using electric power. All other trains are diesel hauled passenger or freight trains. But its 500km of overhead wires for just 2 trains a day and its in an extreme environment subject to a 6 month plus onslaught of severe storms and 40 degree plus heat for months. The maintenance costs is massive and they are struggling to keep it running its not unknown for sections to have low power or require a coast through without power and hope the train doesn't lose too much speed before the next section with power. When the electric stock is up for replacement it is expected that it will be de electrified to save costs and allow for more frequent DMU passenger trains.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,074
Location
Epsom
Sydney Australia has been using double deck metro trains for decades they are 2 + 3 seating lower deck and 2 + 3 or 2 + 2 seating on upper deck depending on train type. Sydney uses the same track gauge as the UK (1435mm) standard gauge.

You'd still have the issue of the UK platforms preventing the use of the wider bodyshells and the track centres needing to be further apart...
 

thaitransit

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2008
Messages
267
Location
Brisbane Queensland Australia
You'd still have the issue of the UK platforms preventing the use of the wider bodyshells and the track centres needing to be further apart...

It must be possible to grind back the platform faces to increase wide of the carrages. Melbourne had to do it 20 years ago by cutting back 6 inches from every platform in the network to fit wider rolling stock. Alot of it was done very roughly though just grind it back or smash out bricks and leave the rough ends showing. As it was done as cheap as possible and as fast as possible
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,895
Location
Torbay
Sydney Australia has been using double deck metro trains for decades they are 2 + 3 seating lower deck and 2 + 3 or 2 + 2 seating on upper deck depending on train type. Sydney uses the same track gauge as the UK (1435mm) standard gauge. The XPT sets used on NSW trainlink are based on the GWR HST trains so there is a good chance NSW double deck stock would fit on the uk network.

However if the aim is to simply move more passengers per train. Then longer trains eg 16 car trains single deck would be the easiest way to go. At stations with short platforms passengers have to walk through to a car with a platform. An on train announcement a few minutes before the station gives time for passengers to get through to the correct car to exit.

Another option would be to purchase double deck DMU or locomotive hauled trains and de electrify thus allowing taller rolling stock without needing rebuild thousands of bridges especially on long distance routes.

In fact Victoria Australia has built brand new lines without electrification as even with trains every 7 minutes it was seen as far more costly to electrify than to use 6 car DMUs. They also de electrified a mainline to the east of Victoria about 15 years ago despite operating more trains today on that route.

Queensland Australia is facing a similar situation on the rockhampton line as currently only 2 trains a day operate using electric power. All other trains are diesel hauled passenger or freight trains. But its 500km of overhead wires for just 2 trains a day and its in an extreme environment subject to a 6 month plus onslaught of severe storms and 40 degree plus heat for months. The maintenance costs is massive and they are struggling to keep it running its not unknown for sections to have low power or require a coast through without power and hope the train doesn't lose too much speed before the next section with power. When the electric stock is up for replacement it is expected that it will be de electrified to save costs and allow for more frequent DMU passenger trains.

NSW stock is typically wider than UK and the DDs are definitely taller. The XPTs were built to local profiles by local builders although derived from UK the HST concepts. They are smaller than the DDs. Longer trains beyond 12 car are not a solution on most commuter lines out of London where junctions and awkward terrminal layouts constrain platform lengthening beyond this. People having to move along trains to get out would significantly extend dwell times. De-electrification would not likely give sufficient clearance for DD, particularly on older AC OHLE lines where clearances are minimal and not to dimensions being provided on the latest schemes like GWML. On 3rd rail DC lines south of the Thames removal of electrification would give no clearance benefit whatsoever. Costs of operation would rise for very dense electric services under diesel conversion as would local pollution concerns.

In rural Queensland maybe de-electrification is a viable option for the particular line given its length and remote nature, but why cannot freight take advantage of the electric infrastructure, perhaps with bi-mode electro-diesels? Also perhaps other passenger trains could use bi-mode technology as well. Is not New Zealand also considering de-electrifying a significant mountainous part of its predominently freight network? Are the Chinese diesel salesmen out in force at the moment?
 

thaitransit

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2008
Messages
267
Location
Brisbane Queensland Australia
NSW stock is typically wider than UK and the DDs are definitely taller. The XPTs were built to local profiles by local builders although derived from UK the HST concepts. They are smaller than the DDs. Longer trains beyond 12 car are not a solution on most commuter lines out of London where junctions and awkward terrminal layouts constrain platform lengthening beyond this. People having to move along trains to get out would significantly extend dwell times. De-electrification would not likely give sufficient clearance for DD, particularly on older AC OHLE lines where clearances are minimal and not to dimensions being provided on the latest schemes like GWML. On 3rd rail DC lines south of the Thames removal of electrification would give no clearance benefit whatsoever. Costs of operation would rise for very dense electric services under diesel conversion as would local pollution concerns.

In rural Queensland maybe de-electrification is a viable option for the particular line given its length and remote nature, but why cannot freight take advantage of the electric infrastructure, perhaps with bi-mode electro-diesels? Also perhaps other passenger trains could use bi-mode technology as well. Is not New Zealand also considering de-electrifying a significant mountainous part of its predominently freight network? Are the Chinese diesel salesmen out in force at the moment?

I didn't realize that the UK used 3rd rail on long distance routes I thought that was only found on the London underground system. There is no 3rd rail electrification in Australia its either 1500 volt DC or 25000 volt AC overhead electric power normally with fairly high clearances above the trains .

The freight trains used to be electric hauled but all the locomotives went to coal export railways in central Queensland that move billions of tonnes of coal every year mostly to Asia . Queensland was only electrified in the mid 1980s. So it didn't even last 30 years.

There are 3 major coal export terminals Australia Gladstone, Mackay and Newcastle. Only gladstone is electric hauled. The Newcastle coal port has 1.5 km long coal trains with 3 to 4 diesel locomotives on each train and operate every 10 minutes 24/7. The port of Newcastle has the largest through put of coal in the world. It is probably responsible for 10% of the worlds carbon emissions just none of it is produced on Australian soil.

Most diesel locomotives in Australia are locally built along with most passenger DMUs. Although in recent years some private freight companies have got chinese or American locomotives
 
Last edited:

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,895
Location
Torbay
The freight trains used to be electric hauled but all the locomotives went to coal export railways in central Queensland that move billions of tonnes of coal every year mostly to Asia . Queensland was only electrified in the mid 1980s. So it didn't even last 30 years.
That seems bizarre to me. If that traffic is so lucrative why didn't buy their own new electric locos instead of stealing the state railway's rolling stock? And who paid for the replacement diesels. Did the taxpayer end up forking out? Sounds very fishy.
 

thaitransit

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2008
Messages
267
Location
Brisbane Queensland Australia
That seems bizarre to me. If that traffic is so lucrative why didn't buy their own new electric locos instead of stealing the state railway's rolling stock? And who paid for the replacement diesels. Did the taxpayer end up forking out? Sounds very fishy.

Queensland Rail freight was sold off in 2012 to one company that operated everything at 1st including coal and general freight overtime they moved away from everything else except for coal. To make it worse it isn't possible to transfer rolling stock from other parts of Australia into Queensland as there entire system is 1067mm narrow gauge .

Queensland also has the largest railway network in Australia where it is possible to travel over 2000 miles in a single direction without leaving the Queensland railway network and travel through a massive range of climates from full on wet tropics to arid desert and urban areas .
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,895
Location
Torbay
Queensland Rail freight was sold off in 2012 to one company that operated everything at 1st including coal and general freight overtime they moved away from everything else except for coal. To make it worse it isn't possible to transfer rolling stock from other parts of Australia into Queensland as there entire system is 1067mm narrow gauge .

Queensland also has the largest railway network in Australia where it is possible to travel over 2000 miles in a single direction without leaving the Queensland railway network and travel through a massive range of climates from full on wet tropics to arid desert and urban areas .

Ah so a giveaway monopoly privatisation that was intended to subsidise the ever greater export of coal and greatly enrich a small number of very large and powerful corporations, and their supporters. Yeah that figures with my politico-economic and moral preconceptions of modern Australia. Are there any competitor freight companies now?
 

thaitransit

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2008
Messages
267
Location
Brisbane Queensland Australia
Yes there are a few now including the government railway operator itself running livestock trains. Plus a couple of grain and container freight trains company's operating in Queensland albeit with new rollingstock or refurbished ex Queensland Rail stock that was left over.

The only barrier to more trains is a 100 mile long section of double track between Rockhampton and Gladstone that is owned by the privatized company Aurizon. This section was government owned like much of the rest of the state until 2012. But the government and Aurizon don't get along well today. It is under consideration to build a new high speed single track line next to theres to avoid the fuss. As it effectively cuts off the northern half of Queensland railway network from the south an area larger than france and spain combined
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
3,227
Location
Over The Hill
All I can say to thaitransit is that while your interest in the British railway scene is most welcome you really do need to visit us and sample our railways in person: you would very soon be rid of many of your inaccurate preconceptions about them! And for the record having family in Melbourne, and having visited a number of times, I am still trying to get my head around the way much of Victoria's rail network is dual-gauged either by separate but adjacent tracks or by genuinely dual-gauge track. And of course many (most?) locos are capable of being converted from one gauge to the other by a simple bogie swap: very Australian!
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
20,528
Location
Airedale
TeflonLettuce has identified a route which might be more suited than others to DD trains (longer distance commuter, particular constraints on platform lengthening eg CX/CS and TWC sorry Tunbridge Wells, two tunnels that might not need rebuilding). S/he has a point.

However - let us assume that a viable DD train can be built within GB+ gauge, and that Grove Jn to Bopeep Jn can be cleared for this (because of the single line tunnels - overbridges are much less of a problem).

What next? There are 7 tunnels between Grove Park and Hastings, plus one at St John's which I think is very shallow. The cost of gauge enhancing would be huge.
But the line between Orpington and Tonbridge is pretty busy, and as commuters move further afield could get busier, while the SE suburbans become quieter, to the point when we might consider a new bypass line (LS1?) in tunnel from Hither Green to Tonbridge.
At that stage it might be worth costing out adapting the routes to Hastings (4 more tunnels) and Dover (2 tunnels IIRC).
Even then, I very much doubt that a business case could be made. Until then, it's a non starter.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
16,074
Location
Epsom
It must be possible to grind back the platform faces to increase wide of the carriages. e

That's the easy bit. You've still got the issue of having to move the track centers further apart across the whole route; the train is wider on both sides...

Then, unless you either fit retractable platform edges to the stations on the converted route or retractable boarding ramps to every non-DD train that will use the route - which in both cases is more things to go wrong - you would have to convert the entire route in one go, in one mega-blockade lasting months.

Much as I would like to see and ride on Z20500s over here in the UK, it's not going to happen...
 

EastisECML

Member
Joined
26 Sep 2018
Messages
198
HS1, HS2, NPR,Great Central Railway (the freight proposal), additional branches off HS1 & HS2, new fast lines from London to Southampton/Reading/Cambridge/Ipswich - if all of that happens there's probably scope for a self-contained network of double decker services.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,885
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
De-electrification is totally politically unpalatable (quite rightly so) and will not happen in the UK, or at least not until battery technology is suitably advanced to allow battery EMUs to replace the conventional ones.

The only case where I see that it might happen in the UK in the near future is the Island Line on the Isle of Wight, but that has more to do with cutting costs on what is a total financial basket-case so it can be kept going for another 20 years or so on the cheap rather than because of any plan to increase rolling stock size. But latest rumours (on the thread concerned) suggest that the third rail equipment, which is life expired, may well instead see replacement.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
I can't see past the need for a lengthy blockade and "big bang" total fleet replacement being the only way to go, with "cross border" routes being terminated at the first station they come to with their own platforms, for transfers. The tunnel rebuilding and bridge replacement would be a huge job.

So, if you were to go for it? What loading gauge would make it worthwhile? European/UIC GC+ so that we could use "off the shelf" rolling stock? Big enough to take an Amtrak Superliner? Double-stack container wagons? Channel Tunnel Shuttle wagons?

Obviously doing it on a route-by route basis, you might as well go the whole hog- eliminate pedestrian, road and accommodation level crossing, grade separate junctions, put in the latest signalling systems, 25kV overhead electrification, straighten out stations etc. Step free boarding should be a given. Higher line speeds. Standardised door positions for platform-edge fencing and gates.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,368
I can't see past the need for a lengthy blockade and "big bang" total fleet replacement being the only way to go, with "cross border" routes being terminated at the first station they come to with their own platforms, for transfers. The tunnel rebuilding and bridge replacement would be a huge job.

So, if you were to go for it? What loading gauge would make it worthwhile? European/UIC GC+ so that we could use "off the shelf" rolling stock? Big enough to take an Amtrak Superliner? Double-stack container wagons? Channel Tunnel Shuttle wagons?

Obviously doing it on a route-by route basis, you might as well go the whole hog- eliminate pedestrian, road and accommodation level crossing, grade separate junctions, put in the latest signalling systems, 25kV overhead electrification, straighten out stations etc. Step free boarding should be a given. Higher line speeds. Standardised door positions for platform-edge fencing and gates.
With an orchard of magic money trees I would look towards double stacking on all major container flows.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top