Could Gatwick Express be abolished?

[Ethano92]

Gatwick Express is just GTR in red boiled down to its core. Gatwick Express trains are only up to 6 minutes faster than Southern trains and miss out the 2 key interchange hubs Clapham Junction and East Croydon which are the only extra stations the regular Southern services call at. As a result, these 12 coach trains often leave somewhat empty when the following Southern service is often full and standing.

Sure, there would be a dip in revenue as there would no longer be any premium fares but I suggest Gatwick Express services simply become Southern services calling at the regular:
Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick airport, (Some trains extended onto further destinations such as the current GX Brighton's)
creating a true metro service between Victoria and Gatwick. I believe this would be a better use of paths on the BML, allow more intensive use of P13+14 at Victoria which currently only handle on average 4tph between them. It would also relieve crowding at Gatwick airport station itself due to shorter wait times.

If I were to go full crayonista I would suggest a new service between the airport which at East Croydon would take over, or compliment the current service up the WLL and WCML up to Watford Junction or beyond. Thameslink has been successful in this, people do make use of easier connections and direct trains to airports.

What are peoples thoughts on GX in general, is it actually a useful service at its premium rate?

 

[JonathanH]

Points can be made about the appropriateness of the fare structure but the signalling arrangements at Clapham Junction mean that something has to operate through the station non stop if you want to run the current number of trains. It might as well be Gatwick Express.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-5-clapham-junction/

Running to the West London Line is also a non starter due to the track layout which requires a crossing on the flat junction at Balham.

In terms of the use of platforms 13 and 14 are they actually used any less intensively than 15 to 19? Again, there is a limit to the number of trains that can be run on the line - off-peak there are seven service groups in each half hour - xx00 Gatwick GX, xx06 Arun Valley, xx09 Reigate, xx14 Brighton GX, xx16 Coastway, xx20 East Grinstead, xx25 Brighton - I make that one for each of platform 13 to 19 - with the extra xx02 Caterham / Tattenham in the peaks - so 13 and 14 wouldn't really be used any more intensely if Gatwick Express didn't run.

Since the introduction of the extensions to Brighton, the paths used by Gatwick Express are better utilised and it is not so true to suggest that they just carry fresh air. There is no premium for using Gatwick Express for travelling from Victoria to stations south of Gatwick other than that super off peak day returns aren't valid.

 

[BRX]

It's basically a scam to extract revenue from gatwick air passengers who don't know there's a cheaper option that isn't any slower.

As there are good reasons to penalise air travel, and it makes some money for the railway that would otherwise be paid for by subsidy, maybe that's OK.

What's not ok is when they provide wrong or misleading advice to non gatwick passengers using their services with perfectly valid tickets.

 

[mmh]

Terrible idea to make Gatwick Express stop at East Croydon. The only point of it should be to make it easier for passengers with luggage to avoid a train that stops at East Croydon.

Scrap the Gatwick Express fares but keep the services the same, then decide what to do after watching what happens to loadings after six months.

 

[Aictos]

As much as I like to see more GatEXs extended south of Gatwick, as I understand it I believe the Brighton Mainline is rather full so beating in mind I’m not familiar with pathing here BUT if one of the Portsmouth/Southampton services could be diverted to run via Sutton and Horsham instead would that make it possible to extend a GatEX further south?

 

[RichJF]

A lot of the GatEx services that come up from Brighton are often well utilised. Not quite crush loaded but I've regularly seen Brighton GatEx's with people standing in the door wells passing through East Croydon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd suggest stopping it being a Brighton "IC", harmonising the fares and encouraging its use to keep big bags off the Southerns.

 

[jfollows]

For me, just about the only value of the Gatwick Express is that it's non-stop, once the train sets off there's unlikely to be any disturbances requiring shuffling of luggage etc. As already said, it can play a useful role in keeping some luggage away from "normal" services. Its value is diminished when it's a Brighton train and not available for immediate boarding at Gatwick, though.
That said, the last time I used Gatwick I came back on Thameslink to Saint Pancras and walked to Euston, and that was so easy it's likely to be my future route of choice anyway.
Without it, we'd be going back to the 4-VEG services (4-VEP with extra luggage space, I think I recall correctly) in a new guise. The downside of the Thameslink option is that there's little luggage room.
I wouldn't be bothered if it were scrapped, but I can see a valid use for the Gatwick Express which has been compromised more than slightly by other requirements on the line in recent years.

 

[JonathanH]

if one of the Portsmouth/Southampton services could be diverted to run via Sutton and Horsham

That is not going to happen. It would be slower than going via Gatwick and miss out the key destinations of Gatwick and East Croydon.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd suggest stopping it being a Brighton "IC", harmonising the fares and encouraging its use to keep big bags off the Southerns.

You mean cut it back to being 4tph Victoria to Gatwick again? I can't see that working - although running a non stop train from Gatwick to Brighton constrains paths for other services, I can't see Brighton getting an extra path north of Gatwick to Victoria if it doesn't join up with the Gatwick Express path. Demand does justify a fast Brighton service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean cut it back to being 4tph Victoria to Gatwick again?

Yes. If the path from Gatwick to Vic isn't available, could it be portion worked with 8 cars from Brighton and 4 sitting at Gatwick as before?

 

[Aictos]

That is not going to happen. It would be slower than going via Gatwick and miss out the key destinations of Gatwick and East Croydon.

It would only be a hourly service going that way, I’m not suggesting all services and it’s only a suggestion to trying to solve the capacity issues that I am aware do exist by thinking outside the box.

Because BML2 is unlikely to ever happen which is why alternatives need to be looked at including the Gatwick Express.

 

[30907]

Yes. If the path from Gatwick to Vic isn't available, could it be portion worked with 8 cars from Brighton and 4 sitting at Gatwick as before?

I have been wondering the same.
Have a 20 min layover in the platform so there is always a unit ready to board.
You would have to use 5 and 6 for the portion workings.
Ideally you would extend all 4 beyond Gatwick throughout the day, as in 4VEG days, to give decent train lengths in/out of Vic, but there isnt anywhere to run beyond Three Bridges (well, there is, but which town would volunteer to lose its East Croydon stop?).

 

[bb21]

I have been wondering the same.
Have a 20 min layover in the platform so there is always a unit ready to board.
You would have to use 5 and 6 for the portion workings.
Ideally you would extend all 4 beyond Gatwick throughout the day, as in 4VEG days, to give decent train lengths in/out of Vic, but there isnt anywhere to run beyond Three Bridges (well, there is, but which town would volunteer to lose its East Croydon stop?).

I would say 8 detach at Gatwick and 4 going onward to either Southampton or Portsmouth at busier times for Gatwick, and perhaps 4 detach at quieter times and either 4/8 going beyond, possibly with a further split at somewhere like Barnham. That gives the possibility of a frequency increase from far west coastway locations, and in any case there are alternatives for people coming that way via Woking so losing the East Croydon call isn't so significant.

Pathing it is obviously another obstacle.

 

[30907]

I would say 8 detach at Gatwick and 4 going onward to either Southampton or Portsmouth at busier times for Gatwick, and perhaps 4 detach at quieter times and either 4/8 going beyond, possibly with a further split at somewhere like Barnham. That gives the possibility of a frequency increase from far west coastway locations, and in any case there are alternatives for people coming that way via Woking so losing the East Croydon call isn't so significant.

Pathing it is obviously another obstacle.

I don't think you could justify more than the present 4tph service beyond Horsham TBH, and an increased service at Havant would be a challenge as you imply.
Woking is an odd substitute for East Croydon, too!
Could you abandon splitting at Haywards Heath and make one East and one West a GX? There's only 10 tph offpeak, after all

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think there's anything to gain with having GX if they (or at least a portion) don't all run exclusively Vic-Gatwick allowing boarding/alighting at leisure and units with dedicated enhanced luggage capacity.

 

[VT 390]

I think it should be reduced to 2tph running from Victoria to Brighton calling only at Gatwick Airport with the other 2 paths to Southern services. If 4tph were to be kept then I think the 2 that son't go to Brighton should stop at Clapham Junction.

 

[Ethano92]

I don't think there's anything to gain with having GX if they (or at least a portion) don't all run exclusively Vic-Gatwick allowing boarding/alighting at leisure and units with dedicated enhanced luggage capacity.

Do the GX electrostars have extra luggage storage though, as far as I know they have the same spec as any other. The 700s are better in a sense as if the luggage racks are filled, you can hold your suitcase beside your seat and not block the wide aisle.

I'm interested in the conversation above as I really do believe GX is failing at its intended purpose of moving airport passengers away from the regular services a lot of the time, Southern services along the mainline are one example of trains I find relatively busy at practically all times of day so I do think it would be a bad idea to either extend the services where applicable with splitting and joining which is common practice on Southern, or simply get rid of the GX brand. Even if services ran to the same pattern just under southern branding and southern fares, airport passengers would use these and keep the other services to/from further south more free of large luggage.

Thanks to @JonathanH, an interesting read by Reconnections and oh well, suppose it wasn't the most realistic suggestion, I suppose there's no space on the slows from Gatwick to remove the conflict at Balham? Especially if it were to skip a few stops on the way to Croydon.

 

[robvulpes]

I was a daily rush hour commuter from East Croydon to London Victoria for 22 years till I retired in 2018. I and very many others would definitely vote for GE abolition or stopping for East Croydon <-> Victoria pax (without a premium fare). It was very annoying to see GE passing through EC largely empty and then having to squeeze onto an overcrowded train, particularly during times of disruption (which became increasingly frequent towards the end of my commuting life). I sense (without having statistics to hand) far more people would benefit from the above than from retaining the status quo.

 

[brad465]

I'd be all for the VIC-Brighton trains that only stop at Gatwick staying, considering there is no Brighton express anymore, but the premium fare should go with the other 2tph calling somewhere en route that relieves overcrowding for Gatwick-bound passengers.