Could Northern run electric stock from Newcastle-Morpeth?

[30907]

The point I'm trying to make is that Sunderland - Newcastle and Newcastle - Metro Centre had fairly frequent train services, compared to the frequencies at the time on services like Leeds - Ilkley... (which were....electrified as part of the ECML scheme).

But BR didn't do a proper job at the time (also with the lack of electrified spur at Morpeth), so the opportunity was lost.

Leeds NW was a separate scheme from ECML, and frequencies under WYPTE had increased to Sunderland levels before electrification.

As InOban points out, the ECML job was pared to the bone to satisfy the Treasury (the south end of York was a prime example), and adding Metro Centre to Sunderland on loss making Regional routes would have been totally unrealistic, even as an afterthought (the ECML was approved in 1984, Metro Centre station opened in 1987 - and that itself was rather an afterthought, AFAIK).

 

[Aictos]

To be honest instead of proposing Northern run a EMU between Newcastle and Morpeth, I would much rather they or Scotrail run a hourly EMU service (Edinburgh to Dunbar but extended to Newcastle) calling all stations between Newcastle and Edinburgh which would give the stations in between a decent service as well as improving connections for these stations at both Edinburgh and Newcastle which would also have the effect of speeding up the Intercity services too by not having them stop at stations apart from Berwick Upon Tweed.

This also has the added benefit of when these new stations enter passenger service on the outskirts of Edinburgh instead of having IC services call at them or at random times at the other stations, there's a fixed reliable hourly service that the locals can depend on which surely must be good for the local economy?

I know this isn't likely because LNER, XC and TPE all want extra paths but if there was a extra path available and it was possible I think having such a service would be a far better use of resources then a extra IC service or running Newcastle to Morpeth as EMU especially as the latter is interworked with Carlisle services.

I mean after all Scotrail operate a service from Carlisle to Glasgow via Dumfries so why not if the resources are there allow them to run Newcastle to Edinburgh via Berwick Upon Tweed?

 

[Jonny]

).

As for Metro Centre - Morpeth... if only 769s worked....

Nice idea, but would they have a choice between lose the 3rd rail shoes or not be able to use the western/up/southbound throat at Newcastle?

Passenger growth north of Morpeth is going to be patchy. Alnwick is well served by Alnmouth, although getting a space in the extended car park after 8 o'clock is a lottery, so clearly a lot of people are driving some distance. My understanding as to closure of the Alnwick branch was not passenger numbers as such and more a faustian bargain to avoid building a bridge over the then proposed A1 bypass. Housing development in Pegswood and Widdrington since then must surely represent potential demand by replacing the twice daily 'rattler' with an hourly electric.

Perhaps an 'outer suburban' approach would be more appropriate if an additional service could be run. Maybe 769s (if they work) could use the diesel and ^turn^ using one of the sidings at Widdrington. The loops at Alnmouth would be another option.

How much to extend the wires to MetroHell?

Not that much (I presume you mean the Metrocentre) but you would need to extend to the turnback point (slightly further west). Whether anyone would want to go to hell oops I meant the Metrocentre is another matter altogether.

Chevington loops as well. Been sidelined there one windy class 91 speed restricted morning to allow diesels to pass at line speed.

That would be another option, but you're pretty close to Alnmouth by then.

 

[edwin_m]

Nice idea, but would they have a choice between lose the 3rd rail shoes or not be able to use the western/up/southbound throat at Newcastle?

As I understand it the 769s will have their shoes removed anyway, except for the GWR ones that need them for the Gatwick route. There's no need for them when working any service on Northern.

 

[Aictos]

As I understand it the 769s will have their shoes removed anyway, except for the GWR ones that need them for the Gatwick route. There's no need for them when working any service on Northern.

That is true unless of course, Northern and Merseyrail come to some agreement about Northern operating some though services over their metal in which case the shoes would be handy, services such as Preston to Liverpool via Kirkby or Manchester/Wigan to Liverpool via Kirkby.

That said, although such thinking is doubtful never say never on the railways ie Class 319s being re-engineered as 769s and D Stock being re-engineered as Class 230s as well as HSTs being used for internal services in Scotland and in Cornwall.

 

[geoffk]

Easy to say with hindsight, but the Alnwick branch closed (some time after Beeching) because not enough people used it...

That's true of many other branches of course which have been successfully reopened. And it was just a branch service wasn't it, not a through service to/from Newcastle.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's true of many other branches of course which have been successfully reopened. And it was just a branch service wasn't it, not a through service to/from Newcastle.

It was a through service in the peaks. I used to go from Heaton to Alnwick on a through service Friday evening after school. My grandmother was a long term commuter from Alnwick to work in Newcastle, for about 20 years until closure, that coincided with her retirement.

Thinking about this further, there was rationalisation of track & signalling at Alnwick about a year or two before closure and towards the end it may have been worked with a single train locked into the branch.

 

[Aictos]

That's true of many other branches of course which have been successfully reopened. And it was just a branch service wasn't it, not a through service to/from Newcastle.

Actually the branch DID have direct services to Newcastle from day 1 of opening on the 5th August 1850 which Newcastle to Alnwick services as well as Alnmouth to Alnwick shuttles operated.

 

[Killingworth]

Actually the branch DID have direct services to Newcastle from day 1 of opening on the 5th August 1850 which Newcastle to Alnwick services as well as Alnmouth to Alnwick shuttles operated.

In the 1947 there were through services, more going south than seemed to go north!

 

[FQTV]

It was a through service in the peaks. I used to go from Heaton to Alnwick on a through service Friday evening after school. My grandmother was a long term commuter from Alnwick to work in Newcastle, for about 20 years until closure, that coincided with her retirement.

Thinking about this further, there was rationalisation of track & signalling at Alnwick about a year or two before closure and towards the end it may have been worked with a single train locked into the branch.

Actually the branch DID have direct services to Newcastle from day 1 of opening on the 5th August 1850 which Newcastle to Alnwick services as well as Alnmouth to Alnwick shuttles operated.

In the 1947 there were through services, more going south than seemed to go north!

Acknowledging that this is rather OT, but this brings to mind the rather heroic progress that the Aln Valley Railway is continuing to make in pushing on back towards Alnmouth.

http://www.alnvalleyrailway.co.uk

 

[EveningStar]

Perhaps an 'outer suburban' approach would be more appropriate if an additional service could be run. Maybe 769s (if they work) could use the diesel and ^turn^ using one of the sidings at Widdrington. The loops at Alnmouth would be another option.

...

Not that much (I presume you mean the Metrocentre) but you would need to extend to the turnback point (slightly further west). Whether anyone would want to go to hell oops I meant the Metrocentre is another matter altogether.

...

That would be another option, but you're pretty close to Alnmouth by then.

Trouble with the outer suburban approach is incremental creep as to where it stops. Widdrington is an attractive idea, yet Alnmouth, an established railhead, is a little bit further on. Then we already have the case where the twice daily 'rattler' (for those of use who commute on the pre 7 o'clock departures from Alnmouth, this service represents an unwelcome fallback if there is any disruption further north, hence the nickname) turning back at Belford, which must surely make getting to Berwick a marginal case. By this point we are almost in Scotland and so forth. Needs some joined up thinking.

Sorry, MetroHell is MetroCentre ... as anybody who has been there on a Saturday in December will surely testify! As to who will go there, the existence of such an option from Alnmouth in times past would enable Dad's taxi dropping young Miss Evening Star and her junior hordes at Alnmouth, leaving Dad freedom to do something interesting, such as a relaxing coffee in Barter Books where he can reflect upon whether closing the Alnwick Branch was done in unpremeditated haste.

Chevington Loops seem, as far as I can work out, to represent operational flexibility rather than a strict necessity.

Acknowledging that this is rather OT, but this brings to mind the rather heroic progress that the Aln Valley Railway is continuing to make in pushing on back towards Alnmouth.

Even allowing for the Duke as a patron, with Alnwick being rather feudal in some respects, quite agree that the progress is indeed impressive.

 

[Killingworth]

Just driven down the A1 into Newcastle from the north and remarked how quiet it was in rush hour - it's school holidays, of course. It reminded me how gridlocked it normally is.

There must be scope for a more frequent service, at least as far as Morpeth, with park and ride facilities, or so you might think.

Flaw? All those cars are going to a lot of different places. And once in the car at that village or estate they'd be reluctant to change onto an unreliable and infrequent rail service.

 

[bluenoxid]

I guess it also depends on the appetite to extend to Bedlington and also to run via Seghill.

 

[Killingworth]

It would be nice to dream of a park and ride rail head at Lionheart, Alnwick with services into Newcastle but it's hardly practical.



However, Alnmouth is now drawing traffic from quite a wide area, stretching south almost to Morpeth for those travelling north, and Berwick for those going south.

The original car park on the east side long since proved inadequate and Northumberland County Council added more to the west in 2011. That was soon full and more was added in 2016. That too is now full at peak times with probably 50+ parked on nearby roads when I visited ealier this month. It's all currently free, but a proposal to make it £3 may soon become fact. A ban on parking for more than 72 hours is now in effect - allegedly to discourage those with weekend properties from leaving the car all week and staying in the big cities to work from town houses?

When charges and the 72 hour limit are enforced the nearby roads will be used more than ever, but no doubt there'll be space in the car parks! Add a better service of trains and further traffic growth seems likely. At present Northern manage and man the station but it's LNER and Cross Country who pick up most of the paying passengers - currently a lot are in diesel units, but bi-modes may change that before too long.

 

[tbtc]

Leeds NW was a separate scheme from ECML, and frequencies under WYPTE had increased to Sunderland levels before electrification.

As InOban points out, the ECML job was pared to the bone to satisfy the Treasury (the south end of York was a prime example), and adding Metro Centre to Sunderland on loss making Regional routes would have been totally unrealistic, even as an afterthought (the ECML was approved in 1984, Metro Centre station opened in 1987 - and that itself was rather an afterthought, AFAIK).

They did manage to fund the thirty miles from Waverley to Carstairs (used by an electrified service every two hours or so - in an era when "Cross Country" services had a good share of 158s or HSTs), whereas thirty miles of wiring around Tyne & Wear would have had more bang for their buck IMHO.

To be honest instead of proposing Northern run a EMU between Newcastle and Morpeth, I would much rather they or Scotrail run a hourly EMU service (Edinburgh to Dunbar but extended to Newcastle) calling all stations between Newcastle and Edinburgh which would give the stations in between a decent service as well as improving connections for these stations at both Edinburgh and Newcastle which would also have the effect of speeding up the Intercity services too by not having them stop at stations apart from Berwick Upon Tweed

It sounds nice but (as discussed on the first page), it currently takes seventy minutes to do the forty six miles from Chathill to Newcastle on the existing stopper, (07:10 - 08:20) compared to around half an hour on a non-stop Long Distance High Speed (LDHS) service (passing through Chathill en route from Edinburgh etc). Add on another fifteen minutes (comparing the path of a ScotRail stopper and an InterCity from Dunbar to Waverley), plus maybe another fifteen minutes on the Chathill to Dunbar section?

All of a sudden the stopper is looking like 2h30 from Newcastle to Edinburgh rather than the 1h30 that InterCity services can manage it in.

If there are going to be four LDHS services per hour (two LNER, one XC, one TPE, to say nothing of the Open Access proposals) then your stopper is going to get overtaken several times by the "sped up" InterCity services.

If the line were four tracked throughout then I'd be in favour, but..

Not that much (I presume you mean the Metrocentre) but you would need to extend to the turnback point (slightly further west). Whether anyone would want to go to hell oops I meant the Metrocentre is another matter altogether.

Sorry, MetroHell is MetroCentre ... as anybody who has been there on a Saturday in December will surely testify! As to who will go there, the existence of such an option from Alnmouth in times past would enable Dad's taxi dropping young Miss Evening Star and her junior hordes at Alnmouth

We don't want to improve trains to a busy place like the Metro Centre - people might want to actually use them - much better to concentrate on linking remote villages instead (removes tongue from cheek)

Seriously though - as someone who was at the Metro Centre earlier this month - the place is obviously very busy - but it doesn't attract the same rail share that Meadowhall does - no direct trains from the Durham line, no light rail station, hourly at best from Sunderland/ Cramlington (but both Stagecoach and Go Ahead providing well loaded buses every few minutes into central Newcastle, thousands of cars clogging up the A1)... we really should be making more use of it's rail potential.

 

[Killingworth]

We don't want to improve trains to a busy place like the Metro Centre - people might want to actually use them - much better to concentrate on linking remote villages instead (removes tongue from cheek)

Seriously though - as someone who was at the Metro Centre earlier this month - the place is obviously very busy - but it doesn't attract the same rail share that Meadowhall does - no direct trains from the Durham line, no light rail station, hourly at best from Sunderland/ Cramlington (but both Stagecoach and Go Ahead providing well loaded buses every few minutes into central Newcastle, thousands of cars clogging up the A1)... we really should be making more use of it's rail potential.

intu Metrocentre is served by Metro Centre (or sometimes MetroCentre) station offering 3 trains an hour to Newcastle, at intervals of roughly 15, 15 and 30 minutes. As tbtc says the bus services are more frequent, and go to a lot more places. I visited earlier this month and noted less than a dozen people get on or off the trains I saw. The family of 6 waiting for over an hour for the next train to Carlisle for change to Preston had more patience with railways than I have!

The idea of extending the Metro west from St James through the western suburbs and round to the Metrocentre would have been great, possibly returning on shared heavy rail back into Gateshead? But the cost would have been enormous. Too much tunnel needed and a river crossing.

Meadowhall station is a lot busier, but it has trains already going to a lot more places with high populations, like Hull, Rotherham, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Lincoln, Chesterfield and into Sheffield itself.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don't see why we couldn't use all this spare electric stock (like the 365s) to operate the Newcastle - Morpeth and Dunbar - Edinburgh services collectively as an hourly 'stopper' from Newcastle to Waverley.

Stops at Cramlington, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Musselburgh and Edinburgh; with peak stops at the smaller stations. More importantly, some new Parkway stations at Belford, Ayton (Eyemouth) and Grantshouse.

365s have good acceleration, and the 100mph top speed with flighted departures behind some Intercity services; and some Intercity services could even have stops taken out. Better use of capacity, especially when thinking about the Voyager services.