Could/should HS2 Eastern leg be shelved?

[JKF]

The cynic in me suspects they’re looking to cut this now as they can fall back on covid as a justification, in much the same way as some of the decisions taken under post-2008 austerity were political rather than economic. There will be many opponents of rail projects within the government, though I suspect Johnson isn’t one of them given his love of grand schemes. He’ll probably demand they call it the ‘Churchill Line’ or something crass and clumsy like that though.

 

[AM9]

The cynic in me suspects they’re looking to cut this now as they can fall back on covid as a justification, in much the same way as some of the decisions taken under post-2008 austerity were political rather than economic. There will be many opponents of rail projects within the government, though I suspect Johnson isn’t one of them given his love of grand schemes. He’ll probably demand they call it the ‘Churchill Line’ or something crass and clumsy like that though.

I doubt that he'll be active in politics by the time branding of HS2 is seriously considered. If the delays in Crossrail were apartment when the naff 'Elizabeth Line' label was pushed, there might have been a more functional one found.

 

[Senex]

The cynic in me suspects they’re looking to cut this now as they can fall back on covid as a justification, in much the same way as some of the decisions taken under post-2008 austerity were political rather than economic. There will be many opponents of rail projects within the government, though I suspect Johnson isn’t one of them given his love of grand schemes. He’ll probably demand they call it the ‘Churchill Line’ or something crass and clumsy like that though.

Was it Johnson as Mayor by any chance who was responsible for the horror of "The Elizabeth Line" for a railway that already had the perfecyly good, unpretentious, non-fawning name of "Crossrail"?

 

[JKF]

Was it Johnson as Mayor by any chance who was responsible for the horror of "The Elizabeth Line" for a railway that already had the perfecyly good, unpretentious, non-fawning name of "Crossrail"?

Certainly was. Also ‘Great British Railways’ which is probably supposed to conjure up an image of a stout bulldog but for me just sounds like some televised model railway competition on Channel 4.


To return to the topic, one of the important roles of the Eastern leg should be to link Leeds and Sheffield in something approaching a respectable time for two cities barely thirty miles apart. This is why starting to build from the north makes some sense as that could be an ’early win’ if done this way round. Cross country and services to the MML would also gain.

 

[takno]

To return to the topic, one of the important roles of the Eastern leg should be to link Leeds and Sheffield in something approaching a respectable time for two cities barely thirty miles apart. This is why starting to build from the north makes some sense as that could be an ’early win’ if done this way round. Cross country and services to the MML would also gain.

As with the rest of the route, HS2 should be about moving all the long distance traffic from the existing Leeds-Sheffield routes so that there is room for regional expresses and locals.

 

[BrianW]

Certainly was. Also ‘Great British Railways’ which is probably supposed to conjure up an image of a stout bulldog but for me just sounds like some televised model railway competition on Channel 4.


To return to the topic, one of the important roles of the Eastern leg should be to link Leeds and Sheffield in something approaching a respectable time for two cities barely thirty miles apart. This is why starting to build from the north makes some sense as that could be an ’early win’ if done this way round. Cross country and services to the MML would also gain.

I think Leeds- Sheffield is more like 40 miles. However, two cities of such size and relative proximity should surely be connected at least three per hour (just about turn-up-and-go) at around a mile-a-minute. Or maybe a resident of one never wants or needs to have a job or a meeting in the other?

 

[HSTEd]

I think Leeds- Sheffield is more like 40 miles. However, two cities of such size and relative proximity should surely be connected at least three per hour (just about turn-up-and-go) at around a mile-a-minute. Or maybe a resident of one never wants or needs to have a job or a meeting in the other?

Ultimately South Yorkshire had it's chance for that, but decided to toss away service frequency to Leeds in favour of a station near the centre of Sheffield

 

[daodao]

This is also very different to when governments provide infrastructure, in that they rarely are looking to compete with other governments and certainly not with themselves nor between major cities.

Government expenditure is often undertaken for vanity or prestige reasons, without significant economic benefit. Looking at the present government, Bojo is particularly wont to promote such projects, but all being well the CoE/Treasury will keep a tight hold of the purse strings, and hopefully their view will prevail over any further building of HS2 beyond the phases (1 and 2a) already authorised.

 

[JKF]

Ultimately South Yorkshire had it's chance for that, but decided to toss away service frequency to Leeds in favour of a station near the centre of Sheffield

If the station is away from the centre it will do nothing for journey times between the core of the cities. Meadowhall isn’t much of a destination, and trundling to the centre by tram or making a slow connection to heavy rail will make it a less attractive journey. Leeds and Manchester will have trains going to the heart of the city, why not Sheffield? It may be more of a job for NPR than HS2 however.

 

[daodao]

If the station is away from the centre it will do nothing for journey times between the core of the cities. Meadowhall isn’t much of a destination, and trundling to the centre by tram or making a slow connection to heavy rail will make it a less attractive journey. Leeds and Manchester will have trains going to the heart of the city, why not Sheffield? It may be more of a job for NPR than HS2 however.

There never was a plan to link Sheffield and Leeds by high speed rail. I don't expect NPR or the eastern leg of HS2 to be built. Sheffield could benefit from HS2 if a 2 tph service was run via phase 1 and then via Burton/Derby/Chesterfield. This should be quicker than the existing London service via Leicester.

 

[Ianno87]

Government expenditure is often undertaken for vanity or prestige reasons, without significant economic benefit. Looking at the present government, Bojo is particularly wont to promote such projects, but all being well the CoE/Treasury will keep a tight hold of the purse strings, and hopefully their view will prevail over any further building of HS2 beyond the phases (1 and 2a) already authorised.

Can I suggest you refrain from repeatey posting things like this until you actually understand how HS2 is financed? I've explained it already, so I don't see the value of repeating myself.

 

[daodao]

Can I suggest you refrain from repeatey posting things like this until you actually understand how HS2 is financed? I've explained it already, so I don't see the value of repeating myself.

Where have you "explained it already"? Part of the problem in assessing the value of HS2 is hypothetical formulae used to quantify benefits and unforeseen problems leading to massive cost inflation, as has already happened. If the BCR is too low, it can't be justified/afforded by loading borrowing costs onto future generations.

Unfortunately, whether or not the rest of HS2 as originally built will be a political decision, and little to do with the finance available or the method of financing it. The vile incompetent Bojo makes decisions on a whim.

 

[edwin_m]

If the station is away from the centre it will do nothing for journey times between the core of the cities. Meadowhall isn’t much of a destination, and trundling to the centre by tram or making a slow connection to heavy rail will make it a less attractive journey. Leeds and Manchester will have trains going to the heart of the city, why not Sheffield? It may be more of a job for NPR than HS2 however.

A station in Sheffield is one possible solution to the need for fast services to the city centre, but not the only one. There are other options - for example could part of the Eastern leg be built but modified to bring the junction onto existing infrastructure much closer to Sheffield, maybe on the Worksop line? The Eastern leg was developed as a means of bringing trains from London/Birmingham to Leeds, then someone thought about Sheffield to Leeds and appears to have just bolted on a connecting curve which requires a long run on classic infrastructure and then bypasses the most important place in between (Wakefield). So the congested S&K Joint line will have to have extra trains, to provide both the fast Leeds trains and a service calling at Wakefield. A proper planning process would consider all these needs as a whole, and develop something that provides the optimum solution to as many as possible.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Worse for NPR - the entire point is largely about journey times (which is the whole "just about saving 20 minutes to Birmingham" thorn in HS2's side)

At leat NPHR isn't like HS2 that has been developed similar to a catchy brand, 'Stop Northern Powerhouse Rail' just doesn't have the same ring to it!

 

[matacaster]

The poorest journey times I suggest are Leeds to Sheffield / Birmingham + (lesser problem) Leeds to Doncaster. There are a few lines which could be straightened, reinforced (mining area) upgraded or reinstated to help here 125mph is more than adequate to improve journey times here. Projected times for Leeds to Manchester are reasonable even now and pretty good following tpu. The problem has been capacity, which has at last been addressed and could have been addressed a decade ago with longer rolling stock.
Whilst Newcastle to Liverpool takes too long, how many do the full journey? Bradford was never going to appear on any sensible fast journey from Manchester to Leeds owing to topography and geography.

 

[HSTEd]

The poorest journey times I suggest are Leeds to Sheffield / Birmingham + (lesser problem) Leeds to Doncaster. There are a few lines which could be straightened, reinforced (mining area) upgraded or reinstated to help here 125mph is more than adequate to improve journey times here. Projected times for Leeds to Manchester are reasonable even now and pretty good following tpu. The problem has been capacity, which has at last been addressed and could have been addressed a decade ago with longer rolling stock.
Whilst Newcastle to Liverpool takes too long, how many do the full journey? Bradford was never going to appear on any sensible fast journey from Manchester to Leeds owing to topography and geography.

Ultimately, if nothing else happens, it is likely that the TPU and HS2-2a will remove the Birmingham-Leeds traffic from the via Sheffield axis. With NPR it just turns into even more of a slam dunk.

I'm not sure how much investment Leeds-Sheffield traffic can really justify - unlike Leeds-Manchester or Birmingham-Manchester or Birmingham-Leeds it doesn't really form part of a larger travel corridor

 

[AM9]

Ultimately, if nothing else happens, it is likely that the TPU and HS2a will remove the Birmingham-Leeds traffic from the via Sheffield axis. With NPR it just turns into even more of a slam dunk.

I'm not sure how much investment Leeds-Sheffield traffic can really justify - unlike Leeds-Manchester or Birmingham-Manchester or Birmingham-Leeds it doesn't really form part of a larger travel corridor

Add to that a distance of 37 miles is hardly warranting anything other than a 90-100mph link, - it is only 'inter-city' by name.

 

[Shernan]

Eastern leg is not needed. We need Crossrail 2

 

[Purple Orange]

Eastern leg is not needed. We need Crossrail 2

Yeah, yeah. We don’t need Crossrail 2.

 

[Tobbes]

Yeah, yeah. We don’t need Crossrail 2.

Actually we probably need both, along with an HSR to the Central Belt.

 

[Ianno87]

Actually we probably need both, along with an HSR to the Central Belt.

Correct, in that rail investment rarely needs to be a rigid either/or choice.

 

[HSTEd]

To be honest I would almost have been interested to see what would have happened if Crossrail 2 had been bodged onto the end of HS2 or similar scheme.

Make ultra-Thameslink.

"This is Dalston, this train will stop at Seven Sisters, Turnpike Lane, Alexandra Palace, New Southgate, Birmingham International, Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly"

 

[Purple Orange]

Actually we probably need both, along with an HSR to the Central Belt.

This is true. I was just putting a short response to an obvious troll.

 

[Shernan]

Eastern Leg is a waste of money. I lived in Newcastle and moved to London previously. I would sat we could do more ECML upgrades instead to up the frequency rather than building an extra HS2 which deliver no time benefits. Opening the Leamside line and four tracking the ECML would be better in diverting freight traffic from the main line. The only good thing about HS2 is the shortening of time travel to Birmingham which I'm not sure how many people would benefit. Crossrail 2 on the other hand helps relieve congestion and London is the capital so it delivers more economic benefit Its just pure economics and the so call leveling up politics is just for votes (which can be covered by a four track ECML and a four tracked TPU). Done

 

[6Gman]

Eastern Leg is a waste of money. I lived in Newcastle and moved to London previously. I would sat we could do more ECML upgrades instead to up the frequency rather than building an extra HS2 which deliver no time benefits. Opening the Leamside line and four tracking the ECML would be better in diverting freight traffic from the main line. The only good thing about HS2 is the shortening of time travel to Birmingham which I'm not sure how many people would benefit. Crossrail 2 on the other hand helps relieve congestion and London is the capital so it delivers more economic benefit Its just pure economics and the so call leveling up politics is just for votes (which can be covered by a four track ECML and a four tracked TPU). Done

Since the ECML is already 4-track from Kings X to Huntingdon (apart from Welwyn - good luck with quadrupling there!) would quadrupling further north actually allow you to "up the frequency"?

 

[Tobbes]

Eastern Leg is a waste of money. I lived in Newcastle and moved to London previously. I would sat we could do more ECML upgrades instead to up the frequency rather than building an extra HS2 which deliver no time benefits. Opening the Leamside line and four tracking the ECML would be better in diverting freight traffic from the main line. The only good thing about HS2 is the shortening of time travel to Birmingham which I'm not sure how many people would benefit. Crossrail 2 on the other hand helps relieve congestion and London is the capital so it delivers more economic benefit Its just pure economics and the so call leveling up politics is just for votes (which can be covered by a four track ECML and a four tracked TPU). Done

Welcome to the forum. Can you quantify what the ECML would need to be "Done" in your view please?

 

[MattRat]

I've come up with a hypothetical solution that could be a compromise. Emphasis on compromise. See, by combining HS2 and NPR further, track could be laid connecting Manchester, Leeds and York, which would ( hopefully) be cheaper than the Eastern leg, and be multipurpose. Yes, Sheffield and Toton are left out, but it's better than nothing, hence the word compromise. In relation to the question then, yes, HS2 Eastern Leg (as we know it now) could be shelved.

 

[JKF]

I've come up with a hypothetical solution that could be a compromise. Emphasis on compromise. See, by combining HS2 and NPR further, track could be laid connecting Manchester, Leeds and York, which would ( hopefully) be cheaper than the Eastern leg, and be multipurpose. Yes, Sheffield and Toton are left out, but it's better than nothing, hence the word compromise. In relation to the question then, yes, HS2 Eastern Leg (as we know it now) could be shelved.

Would that be sufficiently quicker than the East Coast route by the time it was built to be worth the investment, given some further improvements could be expected on the ECML (via track and stock improvement)?

 

[edwin_m]

Would that be sufficiently quicker than the East Coast route by the time it was built to be worth the investment, given some further improvements could be expected on the ECML (via track and stock improvement)?

We've discussed it at length at least once in this thread already.

 

[camflyer]

There's going to be a parliamentary debate in the next week on stopping all work immediately and repealing HS2 legislation after a petition reached the required threshold

Petition: Stop work on HS2 immediately and hold a new vote to repeal the legislation

We ask Parliament to repeal the High Speed Rail Bills, 2016 and 2019, as MPs voted on misleading environmental, financial and timetable information provided by the Dept of Transport and HS2 Ltd. It fails to address the conditions of the Paris Accord and costs have risen from £56bn to over £100bn.

petition.parliament.uk

MPs to debate ‘stopping work on HS2 immediately' following petition success

Campaigners want legislation for the planned high speed line repealed

www.mylondon.news

No chance of succeeding of course.