Could Southern go into Waterloo?

[Evvy73]

Just wondering!

We are always being told about the overcrowding on the Brighton Main Line and that the East Croydon to London Bridge section is full to capacity, so I was wondering if Southern could run services directly into Waterloo instead of just Victoria and London Bridge?

Obviously Southern currently run through Clapham Junction as do the SWT services into Waterloo - do the separate lines join up easily or would it be a logistical nightmare?
Also, I don't know what the space for running between CLJ and WAT is like, or is this section at capacity too?

I know it is possible to change at CLJ from a Southern Service if you want to get to Waterloo, but since the introduction of the GatEx's in the peak to Victoria, there are not as many services that stop at CLJ.

I don't expect it to happen - just wondered if it was possible!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would imagine Waterloo - Clapham is at capacity as well.

 

[wintonian]

Waterloo is most defiantly full, even opening the International platforms wouldn't make much difference without extra capacity from Clapham Junction.

We on the SWML need extra services in the peaks as well.

 

[jopsuk]

despite having eight tracks, it is functionally at capacity- it would take a complicated spaghetti of flyovers and flyunders to distribute the capacity where it is needed just for the extra services SWT really need.

 

[wintonian]

Just dug these 2 similar threads up:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37911&highlight=waterloo

and

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14593&highlight=waterloo

and a little from Network Rail and the RUS:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/south%20west%20main%20line/appendices/appendix%204.2.pdf

 

[Evvy73]

Ah ok - thanks for the replies.

As I said, it was just something I was wondering about.

 

[swt_passenger]

Obviously Southern currently run through Clapham Junction as do the SWT services into Waterloo - do the separate lines join up easily or would it be a logistical nightmare?

I don't expect it to happen - just wondered if it was possible!

Just to emphasise what no one has actually mentioned yet, there is no existing connection between the Southern and Southwestern mainlines, so a question such as this is completely theoretical.

There is a low capacity route from the Windsor side into Victoria, as used by various specials and railtours, but Waterloo itself is only practically connected to the SE network, via the old Eurostar flyover. Use of this has been looked at for SE services during the Thameslink London Bridge rebuild, but most of the stuff in the RUSs is pretty negative about the proposal, as yet again the overall route would have very little peak capacity.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Just to emphasise what no one has actually mentioned yet, there is no existing connection between the Southern and Southwestern mainlines, so a question such as this is completely theoretical.

There is a low capacity route from the Windsor side into Victoria, as used by various specials and railtours, but Waterloo itself is only practically connected to the SE network, via the old Eurostar flyover. Use of this has been looked at for SE services during the Thameslink London Bridge rebuild, but most of the stuff in the RUSs is pretty negative about the proposal, as yet again the overall route would have very little peak capacity.

So is there, or is there not a connection? I would imagine the Eurostar flyover would be useless in this situation?

 

[atomicdanny]

So is there, or is there not a connection? I would imagine the Eurostar flyover would be useless in this situation?

It is connected directly to the chatham mainline though I thought (the eurostars used to use part of it going past Wandsworth Road - Bromley South - Swanley)? but I don't think that there would be that much capacity on those lines to actually run that much of a service via South Eastern though?

 

[pendolino]

So is there, or is there not a connection?

You could go: Up Brighton Fast > Pouparts Jn > Longhedge Jn (reverse) > Latchmere Jn (reverse) > West London Jn > Waterloo

Or: Up Brighton Slow > Falcon Jn > Clapham Jn (plat 16) > Pig Hill > Latchmere Jn (reverse) > West London Jn > Waterloo

But I don't suppose either would make for a very efficient rush hour service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It also depends, whether you can cross onto the SWML or not, where you can actually go into Waterloo, the low-numbered platforms are occupied for most of the day, and the high numbered plats seem to be taken up by long-distance Exeter/Portsmouth/Soton trains, and I doubt Eurostar would be much use either... I would also guess that Waterloo-Clapham Jn is just as busy as the Southern ML or East Croydon-Brighton.

 

[wintonian]

On a similar note are there any London terminals with spare capacity - platform or lines?

Baring the afore mentioned Eurostar flyover could SWT use Victoria?

 

[tbtc]

On a similar note are there any London terminals with spare capacity - platform or lines?

I can't think of much spare capacity.

I had an idea a while ago which tried to squeeze more services into Charing Cross/ Canon Street by improving the gaps between trains (e.g. a train every three minutes, rather than the random gaps we have now), but it's very marginal.

Liverpool Street will gain some capacity when Crossrail is built, and Paddington will have a smaller gain, plus when "Thameslink 2000" is built there'll be some services "saved" from Kings Cross/ Victoria etc, but other than that, there's not a lot to play with.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Southern could access the Stewart's Lane Flyover by running via Tulse Hill and Herne Hill, but would then have the even greater problem of pathing between Streatham and the flyover...

 

[Clip]

Maybe if they threw in some services from Southeastern in there in the morning it would free up some platform space at Victoria But im not sure who would use it.

 

[jopsuk]

On a similar note are there any London terminals with spare capacity - platform or lines?

on the third rail side? As far as I can work out the only real reason Cannon Street hasn't been closed is that the capacity there is valuable as there isn't enough space at Charing Cross, Victoria and London Bridge, and southeastern will be happy when they get the two bays back at Blackfriars.

The only spare platforms are the currently out of use Waterloo International platforms, but at Waterloo it is mainly an issue of line capacity, not platforms, and the spare platforms are on the wrong side versus where any spare capacity could actually be used.

 

[Minstral25]

Are SouthEastern getting the bays - thought they were going to Wimbledon Loop and SE trains going through the core as greater Thameslink.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

You could go: Up Brighton Fast > Pouparts Jn > Longhedge Jn (reverse) > Latchmere Jn (reverse) > West London Jn > Waterloo

Or: Up Brighton Slow > Falcon Jn > Clapham Jn (plat 16) > Pig Hill > Latchmere Jn (reverse) > West London Jn > Waterloo

But I don't suppose either would make for a very efficient rush hour service.

Route 1. East Croydon - Norwood Junction - Crystal Palace - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Brixton - Lindford Street Junction and over the flyover down to the Windsor lines

Route 2. Streatham Common - Streatham - Tulse Hill and and above.

 

[paul1609]

on the third rail side? As far as I can work out the only real reason Cannon Street hasn't been closed is that the capacity there is valuable as there isn't enough space at Charing Cross, Victoria and London Bridge, and southeastern will be happy when they get the two bays back at Blackfriars.

The only spare platforms are the currently out of use Waterloo International platforms, but at Waterloo it is mainly an issue of line capacity, not platforms, and the spare platforms are on the wrong side versus where any spare capacity could actually be used.

Really? Cannon Street has nearly as many passengers per year as Kings Cross. Wouldnt a better idea when Thameslinks finished be to convert Kings Cross to a much needed car park for St Pancras. Yorkshire branch services could be provided with a new terminal at Bounds Green

 

[Aictos]

Really? Cannon Street has nearly as many passengers per year as Kings Cross. Wouldnt a better idea when Thameslinks finished be to convert Kings Cross to a much needed car park for St Pancras. Yorkshire branch services could be provided with a new terminal at Bounds Green

Oh yeah great idea so seeing as Kings Cross sees nearly 30 million passengers a year which is far more then Cannon Street sees, you propose having a new terminal at Bounds Green and converting Kings Cross to a car park.

So where pray do you intend for East Coast to maintain their trains in the London area or do you seriously expect them to use their Northern depots?

What have you against the East Coast anyway, the only real reason why Cannon Street is still there is as jopsuk has said because of the valuable capacity it provides.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I will agree the idea of converting King's Cross into a car park is laughable, although the majority of FCC GN trains will be diverted away upon completion (should that ever happen!), I would have said that the remaining platforms would all have good use: p0-8 for EC/HT/GC trains, and p9-11 and maybe 7-8 if needed for the remaining FCC trains, and along with the multi-million pound expansion of King's Cross, don’t envisage it happening, God forbid it to, within the next 30-40 years... Who would drive to St Pancras anyway?

Just to clear up Charing Cross v King's Cross v Cannon St:
Passengers for the 2008-09 business year:
Charing Cross: 37,105,525
King's Cross: 28,296,166
Cannon St: 21,715,207

 

[paul1609]

Oh yeah great idea so seeing as Kings Cross sees nearly 30 million passengers a year which is far more then Cannon Street sees, you propose having a new terminal at Bounds Green and converting Kings Cross to a car park.

So where pray do you intend for East Coast to maintain their trains in the London area or do you seriously expect them to use their Northern depots?

What have you against the East Coast anyway, the only real reason why Cannon Street is still there is as jopsuk has said because of the valuable capacity it provides.

According to the DFT station usage figures for 08/09, London Cannon Street has 22,046,568 entries/exits pa, London Kings Cross has 28,296.166. I would suggest that post Thameslink when much of the Kings Cross suburban traffic will go via St Pancras, Canon Street will actually deal with more passengers.

My point is and always is as regards The East Coast Inter City services is that they are a fairly insignificant flow in to London.

The suggestion that Kings Cross be turned in to a car park was tongue in cheek but its probably only as daft as the statement that canon Street is only retained because of lack of capacity at other southern terminals.

 

[Aictos]

My point is and always is as regards The East Coast Inter City services is that they are a fairly insignificant flow in to London.

The suggestion that Kings Cross be turned in to a car park was tongue in cheek but its probably only as daft as the statement that canon Street is only retained because of lack of capacity at other southern terminals.

That being said isn't the suggestion that the "The East Coast Inter City services is that they are a fairly insignificant flow in to London." is equally as daft or moronic as the Cannon Street comments!

You still can't be bothered to explain your argument on why you think the East Coast isn't that important, if you can't be bothered to explain why you believe these shortcomings then why make these comments?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are SouthEastern getting the bays - thought they were going to Wimbledon Loop and SE trains going through the core as greater Thameslink.

Some SE services will still use the bays, as well as the Wimbledon/Sutton, whoever they end up with. The South London RUS suggests the bays will get 8 tph in the peak, with 4 tph from Southeastern via Herne Hill, 2 of which are from Rochester and 2 from Kent House or similar. (all subject to confirmation nearer the time of course.)

SE services heading through the core (10 tph) will arrive on the through tracks via Denmark Hill or New Cross/London Bridge

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So is there, or is there not a connection? I would imagine the Eurostar flyover would be useless in this situation?

Sorry that was just meant to note that the only other connection is the redundant Eurostar flyover only for completeness, it is as you suggest irrelevant to the original question about Southern via Clapham Jn.

 

[tbtc]

the statement that canon Street is only retained because of lack of capacity at other southern terminals.

Joking aside, Canon Street has always struck me as an anomaly. Such a shame they never built a "through" line from there to Moorgate.

 

[<name here>]

I think Southern could run into Waterloo on the Mole Valley line as SWT already run a Waterloo-Dorking service. I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard if there was space for it.

 

[thefab444]

Indeed, I believe the Dorking - Horsham services ran to Waterloo for a time, but switched back to Victoria in 1996?

 

[Skimble19]

According to the DFT station usage figures for 08/09, London Cannon Street has 22,046,568 entries/exits pa, London Kings Cross has 28,296.166. I would suggest that post Thameslink when much of the Kings Cross suburban traffic will go via St Pancras, Canon Street will actually deal with more passengers.

My point is and always is as regards The East Coast Inter City services is that they are a fairly insignificant flow in to London.

What a load of nonsense. :roll: Just how many trains an hour do you think are going to be switching from Kings Cross into St. Pancras?! No East Coast services, and a couple of FCC's an hour each way most likely. I doubt that's likely to take away nearly 30m passengers a year funnily enough.

As for your comment about East Coast, what on earth are you on about?! They aren't some little branch line open access 1 service a day TOC, if they were, do you really think the news would have made such a fun and dance about all the chaos this week? Do please explain how they're an insignificant flow?

 

[LE Greys]

On the Waterloo (or to be precise Waterloo International) front, I think there is a good chance that Southeastern could reach there via the flyover, since it would be a useful diversion while they rebuild London Bridge. Capacity through Brixton might present a problem, but if International absorbed the Charing Cross traffic for a while, that would give time to connect up the new viaducts. Charing Cross could then absorb the Cannon Street traffic while they rearrange the approach routes for the northern London Bridge platforms, then it would get back to normal when they finish.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My point is and always is as regards The East Coast Inter City services is that they are a fairly insignificant flow in to London.

Stand on Hitchin station for an hour and explain why there are six expresses heading south and six heading north (EC/HT/GC) all full.

 

[MCR247]

Full? Can't have been a bradford then?