Could SWR gain some extra units in the short-term?

[southern442]

Ultimately SWR is going to be short of rolling stock as soon as it is required to run a full timetable per franchise, it has lost the 90 442s, in process of losing 150 class 707s, and about to lose 68 class 458 vehicles. Without the 701s it will be 300+ vehicles down (even more if any 455s or 456s leave before their replacement 701s arrive)

Won't the 458 cascade effectively offset the 442 loss?

Could it be possible that SWR gain some extra units in the short-term?

For example, the Southern 455s as I mentioned are due a replacement soon, assuming that is done through an electrostar cascade or similar, could SWR gain those 455s so that the 707s or the 458s can be freed up before the 701s come in?

 

[Kite159]

Are they going to be running a full timetable (Jan 2020) anytime soon?

As I would imagine some of the peak time extra services won't be running until the commuter levels go back up

 

[David Goddard]

As well as not running some of the peak extras, they may reduce the lengths of some peak services to cover the loss of the 442s and release of the 458s.
Eg Basingstoke stoppers presently run with 3x450 may be reduced to 2x450, with released units being able to work on the Reading and Portsmouth lines.

 

[43096]

Are they going to be running a full timetable (Jan 2020) anytime soon?

As I would imagine some of the peak time extra services won't be running until the commuter levels go back up

The May timetable sees further cuts in service levels. For example the Waterloo-Reading timetable is just the basic half-hourly interval service with no peak extras whatsoever - this is actually the lowest service frequency there has been throughout the pandemic!

 

[southern442]

For context (I didn't realise a new thread had been created), there are some issues with the 701s at the moment (particularly regarding the state of the drivers cabs) and there is a possibility that it will be quite some time before the issues are resolved and SWR actually accepts members of the fleet for service. People pointed out that as he 458s and 707s both have other jobs waiting for them, there could be a unit shortage.

The reduced timetable at the moment will certainly help things. However I am not sure if service levels are reduced enough to be able to release the 707s to go to Southeastern, or the 458s to be refurbished, and certainly not for both.

As far as I am aware they didn't *need* the 442s to operate the full timetable minus the extra Portsmouth services and peak extras in general, but I could be wrong on that. So there's no pressing need for 442 replacements. That being said, they may want to send the 458s to be refurbished sooner rather than later, and it could be possible for some more 450s to go over to the Reading line to cover for them. Once the 458s are done, you'll have even more 450s that can be sent to suburbia to maybe displace the 707s. Again, with the current timetable, there isn't technically a burning need for 707s in southeastern land however I think they are quite keen to have them still to be able to move around/replace some units.

So the main questions are:
Is it likely the 458s and/or 707s will leave their current duties *before* the 701s are introduced (which may be quite a way off yet)?
Is there enough other stock lying around to facilitate this?
And if not, that's when my question of 'could they take something else in for a while' kicks in.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess the 442 were for enhanced services, but clearly if both 707s leave AND the 458s go for reconfiguring then the suburban services are going to be stretched with just the 455s and 456s

Obviously this isn’t a Covid related thread, but the reopening of offices is going to affect usage levels in following few months.

With Government giving lumpy information, also unclear if don’t travel becomes ok to travel and go back to work, and accordingly at short notice want full timetable restored.

The question is are the 707s an agreed transfer, or is it conditional, and could they be subleased back to SWR. If it is to an agreed timetable and they transfer regardless of 701 introduction then SWR suburban will struggle.

I think a few rail operators (especially TfW) have learnt hard way that signing up to use rolling stock that others subse don’t release is very risky and problematic. Of course if a network wide restore timetable order is given then others are likely to release spare trains. Quite a lot to think about.

 

[bramling]

I guess the 442 were for enhanced services, but clearly if both 707s leave AND the 458s go for reconfiguring then the suburban services are going to be stretched with just the 455s and 456s

Obviously this isn’t a Covid related thread, but the reopening of offices is going to affect usage levels in following few months.

With Government giving lumpy information, also unclear if don’t travel becomes ok to travel and go back to work, and accordingly at short notice want full timetable restored.

The question is are the 707s an agreed transfer, or is it conditional, and could they be subleased back to SWR. If it is to an agreed timetable and they transfer regardless of 701 introduction then SWR suburban will struggle.

I think a few rail operators (especially TfW) have learnt hard way that signing up to use rolling stock that others subse don’t release is very risky and problematic. Of course if a network wide restore timetable order is given then others are likely to release spare trains. Quite a lot to think about.

I think there’s going to be an element of timetable reduction for some time to come (compared with 2019) simply because of crew availability issues, which in places are likely to be quite significant.

 

[MatthewRead]

This is why the 442's shouldn't be withdrawn yet SWR should at least use them to plug the gap until enough 458's become available when they are displaced by 701's.

 

[Kite159]

This is why the 442's shouldn't be withdrawn yet SWR should at least use them to plug the gap until enough 458's become available when they are displaced by 701's.

The big issue I would imagine with bringing back the 442s is that most (if not all) the drivers & guards would need retraining on them as they haven't been touched in over a year

 

[southern442]

The big issue I would imagine with bringing back the 442s is that most (if not all) the drivers & guards would need retraining on them as they haven't been touched in over a year

Not only that but I'm not even sure if any of them actually work!

 

[D365]

This is why the 442's shouldn't be withdrawn yet SWR should at least use them to plug the gap until enough 458's become available when they are displaced by 701's.

That defeats the whole object of not throwing any more money into the 442 moneypit.

 

[43096]

This is why the 442's shouldn't be withdrawn yet SWR should at least use them to plug the gap until enough 458's become available when they are displaced by 701's.

Plug what gap exactly? SWR have a surplus of stock at the moment with the current reduced timetable. You only have to go past Clapham Yard in the middle of the peak and see the number of units stabled to know that - pre-pandemic the yard was emptied out through the peak.

 

[MatthewRead]

Plug what gap exactly? SWR have a surplus of stock at the moment with the current reduced timetable. You only have to go past Clapham Yard in the middle of the peak and see the number of units stabled to know that - pre-pandemic the yard was emptied out through the peak.

I know I even had a look at just how crowded some of the trains were during this morning's rush hour and they weren't full and standing like they usually are. I did also talk to one of the line managers and he said there is nothing wrong with the 701's they're entering service with the timetable.

 

[southern442]

I know I even had a look at just how crowded some of the trains were during this morning's rush hour and they weren't full and standing like they usually are.
I did also talk to one of the line managers and he said there is nothing wrong with the 701's they're entering service with the timetable.

Well unless you're an employee (not trying to suggest either way) they probably would say, for now, that everything is going fine.

I think the situation in the peaks will continue for a while now, which is probably quite a good thing for the railway actually, and if it were me in charge I'd be ramping up off-peak services first before doing anything in the peaks, so SWR is probably OK unit-wise as it stands. Hopefully it won't be long before the reduced off-peak service starts to slowly increase, like I said I think that would be a sensible trade-off for not having any peak extras.

 

[43096]

I know I even had a look at just how crowded some of the trains were during this morning's rush hour and they weren't full and standing like they usually are. I did also talk to one of the line managers and he said there is nothing wrong with the 701's they're entering service with the timetable.

They won't be in service for the timetable change: none have been accepted by SWR and crew training hasn't started.

 

[MatthewRead]

They won't be in service for the timetable change: none have been accepted by SWR and crew training hasn't started.

Well that's not what I was told on WNXX!

 

[southern442]

Well that's not what I was told on WNXX!

Like I said, I doubt they want to go public with any of the problems yet.

 

[Journeyman]

Well that's not what I was told on WNXX!

Forums like that are full of people putting two and two together and getting 2,793.

 

[CBlue]

I can write on a forum that the 442s are getting converted into loco hauled sleeper carriages for Eurostar. It doesn't make it true.

Well that's not what I was told on WNXX!

 

[Journeyman]

I can write on a forum that the 442s are getting converted into loco hauled sleeper carriages for Eurostar. It doesn't make it true.

Someone will now claim it is.

 

[MatthewRead]

Someone will now claim it is.

More likely they will see service with South Western Railway again or Southern for that matter

 

[southern442]

All we have to do is wait for Alliance Rail to realise the 442s aren't being used and maybe they'll poke their head up again