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Could the existing SWR inner suburban "metro" services transfer to TfL control?

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Journeyman

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Presumably, if SWR is taken back under government control, doesn't it also, effectively, hand the metro services to TfL, and DOO ? - I can't see any great benefit in keeping together both 'halves' of the current franchise.

I really think the RMT need to be careful what they wish for here. A nationalised SWR isn't going to be some sort of workers' utopia with loads of highly-paid staff on every train, hiding away in the cabs like they do at present. Under the current government, and given the serious financial problems at the franchise, I think things will potentially turn very ugly - I see an "accept DOO or there's the door" ultimatum coming, which SWR have so far not resorted to.
 

Goldfish62

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Presumably, if SWR is taken back under government control, doesn't it also, effectively, hand the metro services to TfL, and DOO ? - I can't see any great benefit in keeping together both 'halves' of the current franchise.
It would certainly be a golden opportunity to split the inner suburban off to TfL, as indeed envisaged by TfL until the dullard Grayling scuppered it.
 

nuts & bolts

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It would certainly be a golden opportunity to split the inner suburban off to TfL, as indeed envisaged by TfL until the dullard Grayling scuppered it.
There were rumours around late 2015 that TFL would take over metro services just post SWR franchise start, but there was no money in the pot then followed by the Cross Rail delay & overspend.......will it ever happen?
 

paul1609

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I really think the RMT need to be careful what they wish for here. A nationalised SWR isn't going to be some sort of workers' utopia with loads of highly-paid staff on every train, hiding away in the cabs like they do at present. Under the current government, and given the serious financial problems at the franchise, I think things will potentially turn very ugly - I see an "accept DOO or there's the door" ultimatum coming, which SWR have so far not resorted to.
Reckon it will become another brand under GTR so DOO can be quickly implemented.
 

Chris M

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There were rumours around late 2015 that TFL would take over metro services just post SWR franchise start, but there was no money in the pot then followed by the Cross Rail delay & overspend.......will it ever happen?
The main reason it hasn't happened is Chris Grayling, who has a grudge against Khan from when they were Justice and Shadow Justice secretaries respectively - Khan didn't pull punches when highlighting Grayling's (repeated and significant) failures.
 

Robertj21a

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The main reason it hasn't happened is Chris Grayling, who has a grudge against Khan from when they were Justice and Shadow Justice secretaries respectively - Khan didn't pull punches when highlighting Grayling's (repeated and significant) failures.

I can well understand Khan's point of view!

Hopefully, Boris as an ex-London Tory mayor, won't stand in the way of any possible transfer of 'SWR Metro' to coming under the control of the current mayor.
 

JohnR

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The main reason it hasn't happened is Chris Grayling, who has a grudge against Khan from when they were Justice and Shadow Justice secretaries respectively - Khan didn't pull punches when highlighting Grayling's (repeated and significant) failures.

Grayling has failings at Justice? Shome mishtake shurely?
 

Tio Terry

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I wonder if Grayling using SWT/SWR from Ashtead, where he lives, to Waterloo had anything to do with his decision?
 

Aictos

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Thing is IF the services were brought under TfL control and added to the London Overground concession won’t that make LO to bulky?

Because why stop with the SWR Metro, you might as well put all the Metro services operated by Chiltern, SE, Southern etc in the concession.

While I can see it’s advantages, I think for now it’s best to leave things as they are.
 

tasky

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Thing is IF the services were brought under TfL control and added to the London Overground concession won’t that make LO to bulky?

Because why stop with the SWR Metro, you might as well put all the Metro services operated by Chiltern, SE, Southern etc in the concession.

While I can see it’s advantages, I think for now it’s best to leave things as they are.

That's largely the Mayor's plan, here's a map from 2016 of the services TfL wants

tfl_suburban_map.jpg
 

PTR 444

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Thing is IF the services were brought under TfL control and added to the London Overground concession won’t that make LO to bulky?

Because why stop with the SWR Metro, you might as well put all the Metro services operated by Chiltern, SE, Southern etc in the concession.

I’ve always been in favour of a fully TFL operated suburban rail network. More consistency for passengers and better for creating integrated services, even if it does mean higher fares.

If a TFL monopoly is an issue, perhaps split each sector so they are run by different operators, but keep them under the tfl brand as is the case with London buses. At the end of the day, it’s the tfl branding that’s most important.
 

bb21

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Why would TfL want it right now?

SWR suburban branches run at 2tph. There is no spare rolling stock to strengthen services or spare paths to/from Waterloo. TfL are dead skint so there is no money to do up stations. Why would they want to tarnish the London Overground brand?
 

The Ham

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Why would TfL want it right now?

SWR suburban branches run at 2tph. There is no spare rolling stock to strengthen services or spare paths to/from Waterloo. TfL are dead skint so there is no money to do up stations. Why would they want to tarnish the London Overground brand?

Using the same points the opposite could be used as an argument for them taking it on.

TfL are skint, so the lack of paths into Waterloo means that there's no infrastructure spend which is needed up front and they can just creaming off the ticket sales.

The cost of station repaints is fairly small in the overall picture and could just be added to the operators list of things to do (again no up front costs for TfL who are skint).

TfL can just point to the fact that they want Crossrail 2 to be built to allow extra services to be run and can then claim that the extra income from the SWT metro services will allow them to get it built sooner. This could be down to that they can stump up more of the money for the building of it from day one.

They could even, where it ties in with other renewals and enhancements even start to build in redundancy for Crossrail 2 construction which could help to reduce their costs over time. It may even reduce the amount of closures needed to build it, although these are likely to be fairly insignificant in the overall picture.

One thing that they could do is look at of there's scope to run more services which don't go into Waterloo, this could allow a more frequent service further out so that you start to build the market for the service increase under Crossrail 2.

As an example, you run a shuttle service along one section to increase the frequency between two points from 2tph to 4tph, with the extra services requiring people to change to carry onwards. Few would do this, however what it would mean is that for those traveling shorter distances these extra services would make their travel a LOT better. There would be advantages for those going into Waterloo in that the passengers going to nearby stations would be spread over more services giving them more of a chance of a seat from when they get on.

In terms of lack of rolling stock, there's the potential for the use of the Crossrail trains for a little while, probably long enough to ballade their books and order more rolling stock.

For instance it should be possible to turn back services at Hinchley Wood (currently 2tph) to increase service frequencies South of there.
 

Kite159

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Why would TfL want it right now?

SWR suburban branches run at 2tph. There is no spare rolling stock to strengthen services or spare paths to/from Waterloo. TfL are dead skint so there is no money to do up stations. Why would they want to tarnish the London Overground brand?

Is the likes of Shepperton/Chessington South any different to the 2tph for Enfield Town/Cheshunt? (Or the 2tph Upminster - Romford shuttle)
 

MontyP

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Has any thought ever been given to running Chessington as a 4 per hour shuttle to/from Morspur Park rather than 2 per hr to Waterloo?
 

The Ham

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Has any thought ever been given to running Chessington as a 4 per hour shuttle to/from Morspur Park rather than 2 per hr to Waterloo?

Given that Motspur Park has 6tph (and assuming that you'd want to run a new service from somewhere else to/from London in the path of the Chessington service so that those from Chessington could change onto the same number of existing London bound services at Motspur Park) then there's going to be not a lot of gaps to fit the new shuttle services in between the other trains.

Therefore, unless you could fit in a third platform or get the shuttles to work within the 4 windows of 8 to 10 minutes then it's probably fairly unlikely. Remembering that in those 8 minutes you need to run along from the actual junction so at the station unload turn the train around and then get back off the line and into the branch.
 

Tio Terry

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Given that Motspur Park has 6tph (and assuming that you'd want to run a new service from somewhere else to/from London in the path of the Chessington service so that those from Chessington could change onto the same number of existing London bound services at Motspur Park) then there's going to be not a lot of gaps to fit the new shuttle services in between the other trains.

Therefore, unless you could fit in a third platform or get the shuttles to work within the 4 windows of 8 to 10 minutes then it's probably fairly unlikely. Remembering that in those 8 minutes you need to run along from the actual junction so at the station unload turn the train around and then get back off the line and into the branch.

Sounds like that would affect the level crossing at the station somewhat. It’s closed to road traffic quite a bit now with long queues so would need serious consideration.
 

MontyP

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Sounds like that would affect the level crossing at the station somewhat. It’s closed to road traffic quite a bit now with long queues so would need serious consideration.

The level crossings between Motspur Park and Raynes Park are a massive problem, i think Crossrail 2 was looking at proposals to deal with it as their proposed frequency (8TPH to Epsom plus 4 to Chessington IIRC) would make things considerably worse.

As Crossrail 2 recedes further into the distant future , something will need to be done about capacity on the inner SW suburbans. The Chessington trains are generally the least busy which is why i thought about a shuttle.
 

43096

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As Crossrail 2 recedes further into the distant future , something will need to be done about capacity on the inner SW suburbans. The Chessington trains are generally the least busy which is why i thought about a shuttle.
Going to 12-car suburbans should have been done when the 10-car scheme was being done. Typical British short termism again.
 

The Ham

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Going to 12-car suburbans should have been done when the 10-car scheme was being done. Typical British short termism again.

At least those locations where 12 car was easy to do, and actually there could have been a case for doing the works at Waterloo in one big hit.

That would have left quite a few other places, but then fitting ASDO equipment would have allowed a 12 coach rolling stock solution to be rolled out fairly quickly and then just lengthen the platforms as you go along.

Doing things like doing so when the line is closed for other works, so as to limit the amount of distribution caused by the lengthening (it xould also lower the cost by not having to fund the replacement buses, or at least only part funding the buses)
 

Bald Rick

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Going to 12-car suburbans should have been done when the 10-car scheme was being done. Typical British short termism again.

Or typical sensible use of taxpayers cash. How much extra do you think going to 12 car would have cost? Just sorting Waterloo for 12 car is well over £1billion extra as it needs land, and land isn’t cheap round there’s.
 

43096

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Or typical sensible use of taxpayers cash. How much extra do you think going to 12 car would have cost? Just sorting Waterloo for 12 car is well over £1billion extra as it needs land, and land isn’t cheap round there’s.
It’ll cost a heck of a lot more if it was done now.
 

PeterC

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It’s rather sad to see the roundels at Watford High Street and Watford Junction that never came true.
Did I imagine the London Overground train that I caught from Watford Hight Street to Watford Junction last year?
 

D365

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Did I imagine the London Overground train that I caught from Watford Hight Street to Watford Junction last year?

The red LU roundels, which I’m referring to from the map in Post #12.
 
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