Could the Harrogate Line be split?

[DB]

Regarding Harrogate services - would it be beneficial terminating more Leeds-Harrogate services at Knaresborough? It has a reasonable population (15,000 ish) so a more frequent service from there to Leeds could be justified. It’s also (just) larger than Skipton which has a London service - would it be feasible to start a London train there? If London trains were to be routed via York it’d be a no-brainier calling there of course, although would the platform be long enough?

Look at the figures though - Skipton has far higher rail usage (well over double) - there are a lot of commuters into Leeds and Bradford, and it's the railhead for much of the surrounding area (hence the station car parks being large for a town of the size). The station has four platforms, so more capacity than Harrogate or Knaresborough.

 

[JKF]

Look at the figures though - Skipton has far higher rail usage (well over double) - there are a lot of commuters into Leeds and Bradford, and it's the railhead for much of the surrounding area (hence the station car parks being large for a town of the size). The station has four platforms, so more capacity than Harrogate or Knaresborough.

I can understand the railhead point, yes. The roads to Leeds are also not great from Skipton, a lot of 40mph other than a few bypass sections. And it’s not difficult to get into Harrogate to pick up a London service from there so staring London trains at Knaresborough might not add that many passengers as they’d probably already be getting it from Harrogate.

I do wonder what the usage was for Skipton before electrification though, as I know that was a vast improvement for the lines north of Leeds (the 333s are nice units and accelerate well) which would have increased commuter use. Would a similar quality of service to Knaresborough (and Harrogate) lift the numbers from those towns significantly?

 

[DB]

I can understand the railhead point, yes. The roads to Leeds are also not great from Skipton, a lot of 40mph other than a few bypass sections. And it’s not difficult to get into Harrogate to pick up a London service from there so staring London trains at Knaresborough might not add that many passengers as they’d probably already be getting it from Harrogate.

I do wonder what the usage was for Skipton before electrification though, as I know that was a vast improvement for the lines north of Leeds (the 333s are nice units and accelerate well) which would have increased commuter use. Would a similar quality of service to Knaresborough (and Harrogate) lift the numbers from those towns significantly?

Skipton also has long platforms (P2 an just fit a 2+9 HST or Mk4, with all the cariages on the platform) - not sure that even a 5-car IEP would fit at Knaresborugh, and there's no room for extension (level crossing then viaduct at one end, tunnel at the other. Harrogate P1 is too short for a 2+9 - when the HSTs went there the first class carriages were off the end. Not been there on an IEP so not sure how that manages - two fewer vehicles, but they are longer vehicles.

I expect there's a lot of potential demand from Harrogate. Not sure about Knaresborough. Trouble is, a service as intensive as the Aire Valley wouldn't really be workable without double-tracking from York, as none of the stations has more than two platforms (Harrogate has a bay now used for stabling, but it faces the wrong way. The former Leeds-facing bays are long since gone, and don't think there's space now to reinstate. Also, Skipton has a stabling point just to the north of the station where a number of units spend the night, so the trains can be fed into service off that in the morning and thereby avoid bottlnecks being created. Nothing like that at Harrogate - just a small amount of stabling in and around the station.

 

[tbtc]

Also if you're going to wire to Knaresborough then why leave a silly 15 mile gap in the OHLE between there and York? Surely having the whole route as pure EMUs, even if Knaresborough-York is somewhat quieter than the rest, would be better than having to invest in bi-modes for one (relatively) short section of line?

...because the money spent on "fifteen" miles of electrification on the quiet section there could be spent on "fifteen" miles of electrification elsewhere, removing more diesel fumes from Leeds station by electrifying as far as Pontefract or Bradford Interchange (with bi-modes running on those corridors). The way that electrification costs work, double track isn't twice as expensive as single track (since a lot of the costs will be fixed whether you are doing a single track route or a quad route)

There's always Opportunity Cost, yet there are always threads where people say "why can't we just spend the money on absolutely everything with no trade offs". Always worth considering what alternative ways of spending the money are out there.

IMHO, the Leeds - Knaresborough bit of the line serves a very different market to the eastern section - you could wire up the busy bit of the route (it's already electrified for the first mile out of Leeds, so there'd be no disruption in the station), you could then interwork with the other high capacity EMU services towards Ilkley/ Skipton/ Bradford, you focus resources on the busy sections (e.g. Transdev can run a bus every ten minutes from Leeds to Harrogate, so there's a market for rail to expand into) - leave the quiet bit of the line for an hourly Harrogate - York shuttle (maybe with a 155/156, doesn't need to be very high capacity).

 

[London Trains]

I would have a service pattern of:

2tph Leeds to York
2tph Leeds to Knaresborough
2tph Leeds to Harrogate

They would run at equal 10m intervals, and all call at all stations. I wouldnt bother giving Harrogate a London service, it's much easier for stations to have easy access to a hub for fast, turn up and go frequency services (just like it works in London: people get their suburban train or the tube into London to change onto their intercity service, none of this running services from Birmingham, Manchester etc. to every large town around London). I would also withdraw London to Skipton services.

The electrification could be done in stages, with it first going to Harrogate, then Knaresborough, and finally rejoining electrified lines at York. This could easily be achieved by having the Harrogate, Knaresborough and York services all self contained until electrification is complete, enabling each service to switch to electric stock when possible.

 

[DB]

I would also withdraw London to Skipton services.

I assume you never use this service? The morning 9 car is usually fairly full by Leeds. Many get off at Leeds, but there's no way this number could be accommodated by replacing in with a normal 4 car 333.

The evening one is much less used.

 

[London Trains]

I assume you never use this service? The morning 9 car is usually fairly full by Leeds. Many get off at Leeds, but there's no way this number could be accommodated by replacing in with a normal 4 car 333.

The evening one is much less used.

No, I've never used it. Nevertheless, I realise it is busy, but what's needed is both longer trains and frequency increases. The loss of the LNER services allows Northern services to increase and for some of the smaller stations to receive more calls

The point about many getting off at Leeds supports my point. If there were more services, maybe a few minutes slower to accommodate more calls, the passengers would spread out onto multiple services instead of crowding the LNER since it is a longer train and is slightly faster.

 

[HST43257]

I have a solution to all of this:

Double track between Knaresborough and Cattal, Hammerton and Poppleton plus the single lead at Skelton Jn. Also have a P6 next to P5 at Shipley. Give Leeds to Armley Junction line 2 dedicated tracks with nothing moving across from other lines. Give it 24tph capability. Give 8tph to the Harrogate Line (2 only as far as Horsforth) and 12tph to the Bradford/Ilkley/Skipton Line. Note that would include S+C, Colne and Bentham services. So you have 24tph possible with 4 spare paths. Put in ETCS and electrify the entire york to Leeds via Harrogate. Job done.

 

[DB]

No, I've never used it. Nevertheless, I realise it is busy, but what's needed is both longer trains and frequency increases. The loss of the LNER services allows Northern services to increase and for some of the smaller stations to receive more calls

The point about many getting off at Leeds supports my point. If there were more services, maybe a few minutes slower to accommodate more calls, the passengers would spread out onto multiple services instead of crowding the LNER since it is a longer train and is slightly faster.

The frequency is already high, and there is a reasonable proportion of passengers travelling beyond Leeds. It is the only train which starts at Skipton and doesn't stop at all stations Skipton to Shipley, so not really any need to increase stops at smaller ones.

I can't see what would be achieved by not running it. Northern doesn't have capacity to take up the numbers, and it's just an early extension of a Leeds starter - if it didn't run out to Skipton it would just sit on depot for a bit longer.

 

[YorksLad12]

I would have a service pattern of:

2tph Leeds to York
2tph Leeds to Knaresborough
2tph Leeds to Harrogate

They would run at equal 10m intervals, and all call at all stations. I wouldnt bother giving Harrogate a London service, it's much easier for stations to have easy access to a hub for fast, turn up and go frequency services (just like it works in London: people get their suburban train or the tube into London to change onto their intercity service, none of this running services from Birmingham, Manchester etc. to every large town around London). I would also withdraw London to Skipton services.

The electrification could be done in stages, with it first going to Harrogate, then Knaresborough, and finally rejoining electrified lines at York. This could easily be achieved by having the Harrogate, Knaresborough and York services all self contained until electrification is complete, enabling each service to switch to electric stock when possible.

Oh... kay.

If you want these services to run at 30-minute intervals (giving your frequency and 10-minute interval), how many units would you need to run the Leeds-Harrogate all-stations service, which currently takes 34 minutes? Or are you suggesting integrating them with the tightly-packaged Leeds-Ilkley-Bradford-Skipton services, which would probably need a recast as a result?

If you want to remove the direct Harrogate services to London... fine. But you can be the one to tell Harrogate Chamber, because they really won't be happy (even without Andrew Jones being MP for Harrogate and Knaresborough).

 

[London Trains]

If you want these services to run at 30-minute intervals (giving your frequency and 10-minute interval), how many units would you need to run the Leeds-Harrogate all-stations service, which currently takes 34 minutes? Or are you suggesting integrating them with the tightly-packaged Leeds-Ilkley-Bradford-Skipton services, which would probably need a recast as a result?

North of Harrogate, change the layout to have a reversing siding between the 2 lines. 3 units would be needed to run the half hourly Leeds to Harrogate service. 4 units would be needed for the Leeds to Knaresborough services, and 6 units would be needed for the Leeds to York services.

 

[Halifaxlad]

First thoughts are: converting it to a tram line doesn't appear to have been considered with either the benefits of a reopened line through Ripon or a line through Boroughbridge and a brand new line adjacent to the M1!

WARNING: We are in the 'Speculative Idea's thread and I'm very 'Crayonista' although just by chance!

Obviously to avoid reversing at Leeds you would need to route services via Wakefield and a chord after Woodlesford to Neville Hill. Alternatively if a new line was created just before New Pudsey adjacent to the A6120 before going under Horsforth in a tunnel before rejoining the rail network to just after Horsforth Station.

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Apart from enabling a direct Bradford - Harrogate service, you could also route some Liverpool - Newscastle services without having to go via Leeds & York! Obviously for the latter the line from Brighouse to Wyke would also have to be reinstated. Before anyone gets going about cost, this could shave off 18 miles between Liverpool & Newcastle!

In short I don't think the Harrogate line should be converted to trams or tram trains as it could play a key role in the rail network with a little investment!

 

[geordieblue]

First thoughts are: converting it to a tram line doesn't appear to have been considered with either the benefits of a reopened line through Ripon or a line through Boroughbridge and a brand new line adjacent to the M1!

WARNING: We are in the 'Speculative Idea's thread and I'm very 'Crayonista' although just by chance!

Obviously to avoid reversing at Leeds you would need to route services via Wakefield and a chord after Woodlesford to Neville Hill. Alternatively if a new line was created just before New Pudsey adjacent to the A6120 before going under Horsforth in a tunnel before rejoining the rail network to just after Horsforth Station.

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Apart from enabling a direct Bradford - Harrogate service, you could also route some Liverpool - Newscastle services without having to go via Leeds & York! Obviously for the latter the line from Brighouse to Wyke would also have to be reinstated. Before anyone gets going about cost, this could shave off 18 miles between Liverpool & Newcastle!

In short I don't think the Harrogate line should be converted to trams or tram trains as it could play a key role in the rail network with a little investment!

Your proposals hardly include the modern Harrogate line though; you're basically saying 'why don't we built a brand new line from Northallerton to Brighouse via Harrogate?'. And I doubt there is a market for a direct Liverpool-Newcastle service that skips Leeds and York - both of which are far larger traffic markets for the North East than Merseyside is.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Your proposals hardly include the modern Harrogate line though; you're basically saying 'why don't we built a brand new line from Northallerton to Brighouse via Harrogate?'. And I doubt there is a market for a direct Liverpool-Newcastle service that skips Leeds and York - both of which are far larger traffic markets for the North East than Merseyside is.

Hardly a new line, just bits of new line and bits of reopened line between Brighouse & Wyke and Harrogate & Northallerton via Ripon. I included the alternative via Boroughbridge merely to counteract previous claims regarding the difficulty of the Ripon line, as it would be much easier!

The Harrogate line is fundamental as it is the critical link hence my objection to it being converted into light rail (Heaven forbid)!

Regarding the market, your'e almost saying they're no market for increased capacity and faster services between Liverpool-Manchester & Newcastle. Don't forget by not having to go through Leeds & York will mean those travelling between Manchester, Leeds & York don't take up seats upon services that otherwise would be used by those travelling between Liverpool-Manchester and Newcastle and visa versa!

If you want 6 tph then just reopen the Otley Line and send two to Ikley via Otley, obviously I appreciate Pool Bank New Road would partially have to be closed to allow a rail line to snake around the back of the housing estate that now occupies the line, although you could just upgrade Old Pool Bank Road instead.

 

[quantinghome]

Hardly a new line, just bits of new line and bits of reopened line between Brighouse & Wyke and Harrogate & Northallerton via Ripon. I included the alternative via Boroughbridge merely to counteract previous claims regarding the difficulty of the Ripon line, as it would be much easier!

Where is this line going to go exactly? How are you going to get from the Harrogate line to Wyke?

Regarding the market, your'e almost saying they're no market for increased capacity and faster services between Liverpool-Manchester & Newcastle. Don't forget by not having to go through Leeds & York will mean those travelling between Manchester, Leeds & York don't take up seats upon services that otherwise would be used by those travelling between Liverpool-Manchester and Newcastle and visa versa!

Of course there's a market for faster services. But Northallerton to Brighouse will be significantly slower on your route. The Harrogate line is 60mph. It would take a huge investment to improve it to an intercity standard, and then where would local services fit? You seem to be suggesting running additional services, rather than diverting existing services (otherwise you are removing seats to Leeds and York). But this then adds to the capacity headache on the existing lines north of Northallerton and south of Brighouse.

Seems to be a solution in search of a problem.

 

[tbtc]

I could see the appeal of opening a siding as far as Ripon, a fairly short simple extension/replacement of the current Leeds - Harrogate (Knaresborough) services, doesn't have to be engineered to a particularly high speed, you could get away with it being mainly single track (it's going to be about a dozen miles and wouldn't need to sustain more than a half hourly service - no freight), so presumably not horribly expensive - just a case of it struggling to get near central Ripon but maybe a station a mile away on the fringes of Ripon would be accessible.

However, any pretentions of a high speed route that extends to the ECML at Northallerton seems guaranteed to make it look far too complicated/ expensive to ever get considered.

 

[DB]

I could see the appeal of opening a siding as far as Ripon, a fairly short simple extension/replacement of the current Leeds - Harrogate (Knaresborough) services, doesn't have to be engineered to a particularly high speed, you could get away with it being mainly single track (it's going to be about a dozen miles and wouldn't need to sustain more than a half hourly service - no freight), so presumably not horribly expensive - just a case of it struggling to get near central Ripon but maybe a station a mile away on the fringes of Ripon would be accessible.

Ripon's original station was well out of the town - the main station building still exists, now incorporated into a housing estate.

 

[37424]

I could see the appeal of opening a siding as far as Ripon, a fairly short simple extension/replacement of the current Leeds - Harrogate (Knaresborough) services, doesn't have to be engineered to a particularly high speed, you could get away with it being mainly single track (it's going to be about a dozen miles and wouldn't need to sustain more than a half hourly service - no freight), so presumably not horribly expensive - just a case of it struggling to get near central Ripon but maybe a station a mile away on the fringes of Ripon would be accessible.

However, any pretentions of a high speed route that extends to the ECML at Northallerton seems guaranteed to make it look far too complicated/ expensive to ever get considered.

Indeed I think that's about right assessment unfortunately I think there are many people who think that we are going to spend billions rebuilding closed Beeching lines all over the place which simply isn't going to happen.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Before we all go too off thread, it appears that services on the Harrogate line are to be lengthened in the near future.


(How can forecast growth and partners’ aspirations be accommodated in the Leeds Area up to 2043? Continuous Modular Strategic Planning April 2020) Page 21

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Leeds-Area-Strategic-Study-2020.pdf

So unless Selective Door Opening is used, they may be an argument for splitting and joining services at Harrogate. Even with SDO I'm unsure if having several carriages off the end of the platform is allowed.