Could the Heart of Wales timetable be improved?

[70014IronDuke]

Looking at the new HoWL TT it looks as if they want to kill it off. Afternoon departures almost totally absent from both end stations - gap from 12.51 to 1748 from Swansea and from 13.54 to 18.35 from Shrewsbury. And now no later evening trains from these stations along the line either.

These huge gaps must make it very discouraging for anyone to do a shopping trip (or visit to lawyer, etc) to either end station unless they go in the mornings and return on the early train after lunch. This, plus the various cancellations and numerous late running over the past three months makes me think TfW have thrown in the towel and given up trying to attract passengers.

With such limited stock, makes me wonder if it would not be better to cut the first through train each way and reverse them at Llanwtrd and Llandrindod. Worse for through traffic, but providing a better service over the more populated parts of the line?

 

[Western 52]

It's certainly a pity to see this reduced service. It's maybe a response to falling use, which has been a result of the unreliable service in recent years. I've used the line many times this year and usage is very low on the early northbound trains from Llanelli. If a much better service could be operated from Llandeilo and Ammanford to Llanelli and Swansea it could work well if it was reliable.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Four services each way per day is still better than what was provided for many years under Regional Railways and the subsequent operators. The short workings were only added in recent years and clearly haven’t been as successful as hoped.

What doesn’t give a good vibe is that TFW’s website doesn’t appear to provide a timetable booklet for the HoWL (or if it does, I can’t see it.) Hopefully just an oversight and will be uploaded in due course.

 

[IrishDave]

Four services each way per day is still better than what was provided for many years under Regional Railways and the subsequent operators. The short workings were only added in recent years and clearly haven’t been as successful as hoped.

What doesn’t give a good vibe is that TFW’s website doesn’t appear to provide a timetable booklet for the HoWL (or if it does, I can’t see it.) Hopefully just an oversight and will be uploaded in due course.

It's not linked from the timetable page, but I managed to work out the correct URL* and find the timetable PDF here:

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2024-11/3_Swansea-Shrewsbury_December-2024_V1.pdf

(*Basically I noticed that the files were numbered but there was no file number 3, so I guessed that was the missing one, worked out what the URL should be, and it worked!)

So it's been uploaded, they've just forgotten to link it.

 

[Harpo]

I’ve searched for anything on this by the Heart Of Wales Line Travellers Association (HOWLTA) but found only a limp comment on their website:

Transport for Wales have announced timetable changes for the new year which take the line from five daily trains each way to four. The Heart of Wales Line Travellers’ Association is currently campaigning to have this decision changed since the altered timetable will not benefit those wishing to use the line.

Also, we are campaigning for better service levels as the number of service cancellations and late running are not currently acceptable.

I’m guessing that HOWLTA is as thin on the ground as general users of the service?

 

[DelW]

Four services each way per day is still better than what was provided for many years under Regional Railways and the subsequent operators. The short workings were only added in recent years and clearly haven’t been as successful as hoped.

Indeed, 4tpd was the norm until (IIRC) two years ago, when the additional early afternoon service was introduced, along with the early morning and late evening short workings. Other services were retimed slightly.

The big change from that era is that all trains now cross each other at Llandrindod, not Llanwtryd. I think the intention is that if a train has to turn back due to disruption, there are more facilities available at Llandrindod. (If a train in one direction is cancelled, the one the other way has to turn back, as crews don't have route knowledge throughout). However that has made some timings less convenient, e.g. the last southbound now runs much later than it did pre 2022.

I’ve searched for anything on this by the Heart Of Wales Line Travellers Association (HOWLTA) but found only a limp comment on their website:

I’m guessing that HOWLTA is as thin on the ground as general users of the service?

HoWLTA has been appealing for more people to help with its administration and operations for several years.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The table might be a bit unwieldy!

The points at which trains cross are shown in bold. Elsewhere trains pass on sections of double track.

December 2012 Monday to Friday times						2017 Monday to Friday times								December 2022 Monday to Friday times											December 2024 draft Monday to Friday times
Swansea	0436	0916	1314	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0603	0933	1435	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0547	0909	1140	1418	1819	..	2115	.	Swansea	..	0450	0516	0856	1251	1748	.
Llanelli	0453	0934	1335	1839	.	Llanelli	0520	..	0625	0954	1453	1842	.	Llanelli	0513	..	0608	0931	1203	1446	1844	..	2136	.	Llanelli	..	0513	0538	0919	1316	1810	.
Llandeilo	0530	1012	1413	1916	.	Llandeilo	0556	..	0702	1030	1530	1918	.	Llandeilo	0551	..	0646	1009	1249	1527	1923	..	2215	.	Llandeilo	..	0553	0619	0959	1356	1851	.
	0532	1015	1416	1918	.		0559	..	0706	1033	1532	1921	.		0554	..	0649	1012	1251	1529	1925	..	2217	.		..	0554	0619	1000	1357	1851	.
Llandovery	0552	1034	1435	1938	.	Llandovery	0621	..	0726	1052	1552	1940	.	Llandovery	0615	..	0708	1031	1310	1549	1945	..	2237	.	Llandovery	..	0615	0640	1021	1418	1913	.
	0554	1037	1438	1940	.		..	..	0728	1055	1554	1943	.		..	..	0711	1034	1313	1551	1947	..	..	.		..	0616	..	1022	1419	1913	.
Llanwrtyd	0616	1100	1501	2002	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0751	1118	1617	2006	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1336	1614	2010	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	0640	..	1047	1444	1938	.
	0619	1105	1503	2007	.		..	..	0808	1120	1624	2031	.		..	..	0740	1103	1342	1617	2016	..	..	.		..	0642	..	1047	1444	1939	.
Llandrindod	0647	1136	1534	2036	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0838	1151	1654	2102	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0811	1135	1414	1649	2048	..	..	.	Llandrindod	..	0713	..	1120	1517	2011	.
	0655	1140	1540	2040	.		..	0618	0845	1201	1659	2119	.		..	0550	0813	1136	1415	1701	2049	2310	..	.		0547	0732	..	1140	1533	2024	.
Knighton	0730	1216	1616	2114	.	Knighton	..	0654	0921	1237	1735	2155	.	Knighton	..	0624	0849	1212	1451	1737	2125	2343	..	.	Knighton	0626	0809	..	1217	1610	2100	.
	0732	1218	1619	2117	.		..	0703	0923	1240	1737	2158	.		..	0643	0851	1217	1454	1740	2128	2345	..	.		0643	0810	..	1218	1611	2102	.
Craven Arms	0753	1239	1637	2138	.	Craven Arms	..	0728	0947	1302	1800	2220	.	Craven Arms	..	0706	0914	1244	1516	1802	2151	0007	..	.	Craven Arms	0708	0834	..	1242	1635	2126	.
Shrewsbury	0822	1308	1709	2208	.	Shrewsbury	..	0757	1014	1332	1828	2254	.	Shrewsbury	..	0738	0946	1314	1546	1832	2221	0037	..	.	Shrewsbury	0738	0903	..	1312	1704	2155	.
	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Shrewsbury	0519	0900	1404	1805	.	Shrewsbury	..	0445	0556	1009	1405	1824	.	Shrewsbury	..	0419	0522	0856	1121	1517	1807	..	2129	.	Shrewsbury	..	0420	0525	1002	1354	1835	.
Craven Arms	0550	0928	1433	1835	.	Craven Arms	..	0514	0624	1037	1434	1854	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0550	0924	1152	1545	1836	..	2157	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0553	1030	1423	1904	.
Knighton	0610	0950	1455	1855	.	Knighton	..	0533	0646	1059	1455	1915	.	Knighton	..	0507	0612	0946	1214	1607	1857	..	2219	.	Knighton	..	0509	0617	1054	1447	1927	.
	0612	0952	1457	1857	.		..	0536	0656	1101	1458	1918	.		..	0510	0625	0948	1217	1609	1900	..	2221	.		..	0510	0625	1054	1447	1928	.
Llandrindod	0646	1028	1535	1931	.	Llandrindod	..	0610	0734	1139	1536	1956	.	Llandrindod	..	0545	0704	1027	1257	1649	1939	..	2300	.	Llandrindod	..	0546	0706	1135	1528	2009	.
	0652	1031	1540	1934	.		..	..	0735	1200	1541	1956	.		..	..	0706	1029	1257	1701	1941	..	..	.		..	..	0730	1136	1535	2027	.
Llanwrtyd	0718	1059	1609	2001	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0803	1228	1609	2025	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1326	1729	2009	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0800	1206	1605	2057	.
	0721	1107	1611	2010	.		..	..	0809	1231	1623	2030	.		..	..	0740	1103	1341	1735	2017	..	..	.		..	..	0801	1207	1606	2058	.
Llandovery	0743	1130	1634	2033	.	Llandovery	..	..	0832	1254	1646	2053	.	Llandovery	..	..	0803	1126	1404	1758	2040	..	..	.	Llandovery	..	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
	0745	1132	1637	2035	.		0642	..	0834	1256	1648	2056	.		0626	..	0805	1128	1407	1800	2042	2243	..	.		0644	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
Llandeilo	0803	1151	1656	2054	.	Llandeilo	0701	..	0853	1315	1707	2115	.	Llandeilo	0645	..	0824	1147	1426	1819	2101	2302	..	.	Llandeilo	0705	..	0847	1253	1652	2144	.
	0806	1154	1658	2057	.		0703	..	0856	1318	1710	2117	.		0650	..	0827	1150	1428	1822	2104	2304	..	.		0705	..	0848	1254	1653	2145	.
Llanelli	0842	1235	1738	2134	.	Llanelli	0745	..	0939	1404	1752	2201	.	Llanelli	0729	..	0905	1237	1506	1904	2141	2342	..	.	Llanelli	0746	..	0931	1338	1737	2235	.
Swansea	0908	1304	1818	2208	.	Swansea	0808	..	1002	1425	1814	2222	.	Swansea	0805	..	0933	1301	1534	1937	2208	0016	..	.	Swansea	0809	..	0954	1404	1801	2258	.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The table might be a bit unwieldy!

The points at which trains cross are shown in bold. Elsewhere trains pass on sections of double track.

December 2012 Monday to Friday times						2017 Monday to Friday times								December 2022 Monday to Friday times											December 2024 draft Monday to Friday times
Swansea	0436	0916	1314	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0603	0933	1435	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0547	0909	1140	1418	1819	..	2115	.	Swansea	..	0450	0516	0856	1251	1748	.
Llanelli	0453	0934	1335	1839	.	Llanelli	0520	..	0625	0954	1453	1842	.	Llanelli	0513	..	0608	0931	1203	1446	1844	..	2136	.	Llanelli	..	0513	0538	0919	1316	1810	.
Llandeilo	0530	1012	1413	1916	.	Llandeilo	0556	..	0702	1030	1530	1918	.	Llandeilo	0551	..	0646	1009	1249	1527	1923	..	2215	.	Llandeilo	..	0553	0619	0959	1356	1851	.
	0532	1015	1416	1918	.		0559	..	0706	1033	1532	1921	.		0554	..	0649	1012	1251	1529	1925	..	2217	.		..	0554	0619	1000	1357	1851	.
Llandovery	0552	1034	1435	1938	.	Llandovery	0621	..	0726	1052	1552	1940	.	Llandovery	0615	..	0708	1031	1310	1549	1945	..	2237	.	Llandovery	..	0615	0640	1021	1418	1913	.
	0554	1037	1438	1940	.		..	..	0728	1055	1554	1943	.		..	..	0711	1034	1313	1551	1947	..	..	.		..	0616	..	1022	1419	1913	.
Llanwrtyd	0616	1100	1501	2002	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0751	1118	1617	2006	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1336	1614	2010	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	0640	..	1047	1444	1938	.
	0619	1105	1503	2007	.		..	..	0808	1120	1624	2031	.		..	..	0740	1103	1342	1617	2016	..	..	.		..	0642	..	1047	1444	1939	.
Llandrindod	0647	1136	1534	2036	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0838	1151	1654	2102	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0811	1135	1414	1649	2048	..	..	.	Llandrindod	..	0713	..	1120	1517	2011	.
	0655	1140	1540	2040	.		..	0618	0845	1201	1659	2119	.		..	0550	0813	1136	1415	1701	2049	2310	..	.		0547	0732	..	1140	1533	2024	.
Knighton	0730	1216	1616	2114	.	Knighton	..	0654	0921	1237	1735	2155	.	Knighton	..	0624	0849	1212	1451	1737	2125	2343	..	.	Knighton	0626	0809	..	1217	1610	2100	.
	0732	1218	1619	2117	.		..	0703	0923	1240	1737	2158	.		..	0643	0851	1217	1454	1740	2128	2345	..	.		0643	0810	..	1218	1611	2102	.
Craven Arms	0753	1239	1637	2138	.	Craven Arms	..	0728	0947	1302	1800	2220	.	Craven Arms	..	0706	0914	1244	1516	1802	2151	0007	..	.	Craven Arms	0708	0834	..	1242	1635	2126	.
Shrewsbury	0822	1308	1709	2208	.	Shrewsbury	..	0757	1014	1332	1828	2254	.	Shrewsbury	..	0738	0946	1314	1546	1832	2221	0037	..	.	Shrewsbury	0738	0903	..	1312	1704	2155	.
	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Shrewsbury	0519	0900	1404	1805	.	Shrewsbury	..	0445	0556	1009	1405	1824	.	Shrewsbury	..	0419	0522	0856	1121	1517	1807	..	2129	.	Shrewsbury	..	0420	0525	1002	1354	1835	.
Craven Arms	0550	0928	1433	1835	.	Craven Arms	..	0514	0624	1037	1434	1854	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0550	0924	1152	1545	1836	..	2157	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0553	1030	1423	1904	.
Knighton	0610	0950	1455	1855	.	Knighton	..	0533	0646	1059	1455	1915	.	Knighton	..	0507	0612	0946	1214	1607	1857	..	2219	.	Knighton	..	0509	0617	1054	1447	1927	.
	0612	0952	1457	1857	.		..	0536	0656	1101	1458	1918	.		..	0510	0625	0948	1217	1609	1900	..	2221	.		..	0510	0625	1054	1447	1928	.
Llandrindod	0646	1028	1535	1931	.	Llandrindod	..	0610	0734	1139	1536	1956	.	Llandrindod	..	0545	0704	1027	1257	1649	1939	..	2300	.	Llandrindod	..	0546	0706	1135	1528	2009	.
	0652	1031	1540	1934	.		..	..	0735	1200	1541	1956	.		..	..	0706	1029	1257	1701	1941	..	..	.		..	..	0730	1136	1535	2027	.
Llanwrtyd	0718	1059	1609	2001	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0803	1228	1609	2025	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1326	1729	2009	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0800	1206	1605	2057	.
	0721	1107	1611	2010	.		..	..	0809	1231	1623	2030	.		..	..	0740	1103	1341	1735	2017	..	..	.		..	..	0801	1207	1606	2058	.
Llandovery	0743	1130	1634	2033	.	Llandovery	..	..	0832	1254	1646	2053	.	Llandovery	..	..	0803	1126	1404	1758	2040	..	..	.	Llandovery	..	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
	0745	1132	1637	2035	.		0642	..	0834	1256	1648	2056	.		0626	..	0805	1128	1407	1800	2042	2243	..	.		0644	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
Llandeilo	0803	1151	1656	2054	.	Llandeilo	0701	..	0853	1315	1707	2115	.	Llandeilo	0645	..	0824	1147	1426	1819	2101	2302	..	.	Llandeilo	0705	..	0847	1253	1652	2144	.
	0806	1154	1658	2057	.		0703	..	0856	1318	1710	2117	.		0650	..	0827	1150	1428	1822	2104	2304	..	.		0705	..	0848	1254	1653	2145	.
Llanelli	0842	1235	1738	2134	.	Llanelli	0745	..	0939	1404	1752	2201	.	Llanelli	0729	..	0905	1237	1506	1904	2141	2342	..	.	Llanelli	0746	..	0931	1338	1737	2235	.
Swansea	0908	1304	1818	2208	.	Swansea	0808	..	1002	1425	1814	2222	.	Swansea	0805	..	0933	1301	1534	1937	2208	0016	..	.	Swansea	0809	..	0954	1404	1801	2258	.

Thank you for this - a useful resource.

One of the issues regarding the "four through workings per day" description is that it isn't, really, as for the first two services of the day might as well be ECS workings for the first half of their journies. I've never taken either of them, but I can't see many getting up in Shrewsbury at 04.15 for the 05.25 to Swansea. So the first realistic train is the 10.02, which doesn't reach Llandod until nearly midday.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thank you for this - a useful resource.

One of the issues regarding the "four through workings per day" description is that it isn't, really, as for the first two services of the day might as well be ECS workings for the first half of their journies. I've never taken either of them, but I can't see many getting up in Shrewsbury at 04.15 for the 05.25 to Swansea. So the first realistic train is the 10.02, which doesn't reach Llandod until nearly midday.

As mentioned before - probably remnants of the time when these trains carried mail and parcels.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thank you for this - a useful resource.

One of the issues regarding the "four through workings per day" description is that it isn't, really, as for the first two services of the day might as well be ECS workings for the first half of their journies. I've never taken either of them, but I can't see many getting up in Shrewsbury at 04.15 for the 05.25 to Swansea. So the first realistic train is the 10.02, which doesn't reach Llandod until nearly midday.

I guess it fits where it touches. At such a low frequency (even pre December) the chances of getting an ideal pair of journeys for out/back the same day was pretty slim.

There was discussion, around the 2017 changes, that people living between Craven Arms and Shrewsbury could travel south to Llandrindod, do their Tesco shopping, then catch the train back (1028 to 1140). That opportunity was lost, as it is now with all trains crossing at Llandrindod.

When staying in Shrewsbury, the 0900 departure was convenient to head south for a mid-Wales walk. The 1000 departure, especially when it was a through train from Crewe, meant I could do the same travelling from home. 1000 when staying in Shrewsbury means hanging around 'half the morning'. In the return direction there is, effectively just the one train from Knighton at 1610 instead of 1454 / 1740 until December.

I'm not sure of these 'facilities' available to passengers in the event of disruption which Llandrindod offers. The ticket office only has a morning shift so there is no waiting room. It will be better for RRB buses and there are toilets nearby. Also shops in town if you 'dare' leave the station whilst awaiting rescue.

 

[30907]

As mentioned before - probably remnants of the time when these trains carried mail and parcels.

Didn't it leave about 0350 back then

 

[2T57]

Yes, it left at 03:45.

Looking at a timetable from 1981, the five Monday to Saturday services on the Heart of Wales route left Shrewsbury at 03:45, 06:22, 10:46, 15:43 and 18:48. In the opposite direction they departed Swansea at 05:44, 10:10, 12:25, 14:58 and 19.05. There was no Sunday service.

An observation is that services were noticeably faster then, too. For example, the 12:25 from Swansea reached Shrewsbury by 16:05. Today the 12:51 from Swansea doesn’t arrive at Shrewsbury until 17:04. With the slow journey and risk of termination half way, most passengers would surely take the 12:54 from Swansea via Cardiff and the Marches for a few pounds more to arrive at Shrewsbury at 15:52.

 

[DelW]

I'm not sure of these 'facilities' available to passengers in the event of disruption which Llandrindod offers. The ticket office only has a morning shift so there is no waiting room. It will be better for RRB buses and there are toilets nearby. Also shops in town if you 'dare' leave the station whilst awaiting rescue.

There's also the Llanerch Inn a minute or so walk from the up-side platform, as well as other pubs a bit further away in the town. At Llanwrtyd (the alternative crossing point) there's nothing at all near the station, the town is 7 or 8 minutes brisk walk away. It has three pubs, a cafe, one shop and a petrol station.

 

[Jez]

I think the main issue with the Heart of Wales line is the single track all the way from Pontarddulais to Craven Arms aside from the 5 passing loops. Its is impossible to run an hourly or even 2 hourly service. Also due to the many cutbacks that have to be considered by TFW, due to the small population in particular the middle and north of the line, it just isnt that feasible for a more frequent service.

Its unfortunate the service has been cut back to 4 trains a day rather than the 5 we had until the timetable change. Also the first train of the day is effectively an ECS movement for the first half in both directions, however with no depot mid way up the line there isnt a lot of choice with that. Its a shame a few shorter workings at each end, particularly the South, couldnt have been included. Unfortunately we are also stuck with the 153s for the moment whilst almost everywhere else is new trains. Just the way it is with the HOWL line and TFW having other priorities.

 

[Harpo]

Unfortunately we are also stuck with the 153s for the moment whilst almost everywhere else is new trains.

An alternative view is that the 153s help the line survive.

Having an appropriately sized train (i.e. a single car unit) avoids the line incurring even higher running costs with trains that exceed the capacity needed.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Do any HoWL trains end up with standing passengers? Or is usage so low that never happens?

 

[Western 52]

Do any HoWL trains end up with standing passengers? Or is usage so low that never happens?

Yes I've known it happen, but mostly the 153s are enough capacity. I do remember an almost empty 153 arriving at Llandeilo and leaving with a large number of football fans heading north! The unit was standing room only to Shrewsbury!

 

[VideozVideoz]

The table might be a bit unwieldy!

The points at which trains cross are shown in bold. Elsewhere trains pass on sections of double track.

December 2012 Monday to Friday times						2017 Monday to Friday times								December 2022 Monday to Friday times											December 2024 draft Monday to Friday times
Swansea	0436	0916	1314	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0603	0933	1435	1821	.	Swansea	..	..	0547	0909	1140	1418	1819	..	2115	.	Swansea	..	0450	0516	0856	1251	1748	.
Llanelli	0453	0934	1335	1839	.	Llanelli	0520	..	0625	0954	1453	1842	.	Llanelli	0513	..	0608	0931	1203	1446	1844	..	2136	.	Llanelli	..	0513	0538	0919	1316	1810	.
Llandeilo	0530	1012	1413	1916	.	Llandeilo	0556	..	0702	1030	1530	1918	.	Llandeilo	0551	..	0646	1009	1249	1527	1923	..	2215	.	Llandeilo	..	0553	0619	0959	1356	1851	.
	0532	1015	1416	1918	.		0559	..	0706	1033	1532	1921	.		0554	..	0649	1012	1251	1529	1925	..	2217	.		..	0554	0619	1000	1357	1851	.
Llandovery	0552	1034	1435	1938	.	Llandovery	0621	..	0726	1052	1552	1940	.	Llandovery	0615	..	0708	1031	1310	1549	1945	..	2237	.	Llandovery	..	0615	0640	1021	1418	1913	.
	0554	1037	1438	1940	.		..	..	0728	1055	1554	1943	.		..	..	0711	1034	1313	1551	1947	..	..	.		..	0616	..	1022	1419	1913	.
Llanwrtyd	0616	1100	1501	2002	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0751	1118	1617	2006	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1336	1614	2010	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	0640	..	1047	1444	1938	.
	0619	1105	1503	2007	.		..	..	0808	1120	1624	2031	.		..	..	0740	1103	1342	1617	2016	..	..	.		..	0642	..	1047	1444	1939	.
Llandrindod	0647	1136	1534	2036	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0838	1151	1654	2102	.	Llandrindod	..	..	0811	1135	1414	1649	2048	..	..	.	Llandrindod	..	0713	..	1120	1517	2011	.
	0655	1140	1540	2040	.		..	0618	0845	1201	1659	2119	.		..	0550	0813	1136	1415	1701	2049	2310	..	.		0547	0732	..	1140	1533	2024	.
Knighton	0730	1216	1616	2114	.	Knighton	..	0654	0921	1237	1735	2155	.	Knighton	..	0624	0849	1212	1451	1737	2125	2343	..	.	Knighton	0626	0809	..	1217	1610	2100	.
	0732	1218	1619	2117	.		..	0703	0923	1240	1737	2158	.		..	0643	0851	1217	1454	1740	2128	2345	..	.		0643	0810	..	1218	1611	2102	.
Craven Arms	0753	1239	1637	2138	.	Craven Arms	..	0728	0947	1302	1800	2220	.	Craven Arms	..	0706	0914	1244	1516	1802	2151	0007	..	.	Craven Arms	0708	0834	..	1242	1635	2126	.
Shrewsbury	0822	1308	1709	2208	.	Shrewsbury	..	0757	1014	1332	1828	2254	.	Shrewsbury	..	0738	0946	1314	1546	1832	2221	0037	..	.	Shrewsbury	0738	0903	..	1312	1704	2155	.
	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.
Shrewsbury	0519	0900	1404	1805	.	Shrewsbury	..	0445	0556	1009	1405	1824	.	Shrewsbury	..	0419	0522	0856	1121	1517	1807	..	2129	.	Shrewsbury	..	0420	0525	1002	1354	1835	.
Craven Arms	0550	0928	1433	1835	.	Craven Arms	..	0514	0624	1037	1434	1854	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0550	0924	1152	1545	1836	..	2157	.	Craven Arms	..	0448	0553	1030	1423	1904	.
Knighton	0610	0950	1455	1855	.	Knighton	..	0533	0646	1059	1455	1915	.	Knighton	..	0507	0612	0946	1214	1607	1857	..	2219	.	Knighton	..	0509	0617	1054	1447	1927	.
	0612	0952	1457	1857	.		..	0536	0656	1101	1458	1918	.		..	0510	0625	0948	1217	1609	1900	..	2221	.		..	0510	0625	1054	1447	1928	.
Llandrindod	0646	1028	1535	1931	.	Llandrindod	..	0610	0734	1139	1536	1956	.	Llandrindod	..	0545	0704	1027	1257	1649	1939	..	2300	.	Llandrindod	..	0546	0706	1135	1528	2009	.
	0652	1031	1540	1934	.		..	..	0735	1200	1541	1956	.		..	..	0706	1029	1257	1701	1941	..	..	.		..	..	0730	1136	1535	2027	.
Llanwrtyd	0718	1059	1609	2001	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0803	1228	1609	2025	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0734	1057	1326	1729	2009	..	..	.	Llanwrtyd	..	..	0800	1206	1605	2057	.
	0721	1107	1611	2010	.		..	..	0809	1231	1623	2030	.		..	..	0740	1103	1341	1735	2017	..	..	.		..	..	0801	1207	1606	2058	.
Llandovery	0743	1130	1634	2033	.	Llandovery	..	..	0832	1254	1646	2053	.	Llandovery	..	..	0803	1126	1404	1758	2040	..	..	.	Llandovery	..	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
	0745	1132	1637	2035	.		0642	..	0834	1256	1648	2056	.		0626	..	0805	1128	1407	1800	2042	2243	..	.		0644	..	0826	1232	1631	2123	.
Llandeilo	0803	1151	1656	2054	.	Llandeilo	0701	..	0853	1315	1707	2115	.	Llandeilo	0645	..	0824	1147	1426	1819	2101	2302	..	.	Llandeilo	0705	..	0847	1253	1652	2144	.
	0806	1154	1658	2057	.		0703	..	0856	1318	1710	2117	.		0650	..	0827	1150	1428	1822	2104	2304	..	.		0705	..	0848	1254	1653	2145	.
Llanelli	0842	1235	1738	2134	.	Llanelli	0745	..	0939	1404	1752	2201	.	Llanelli	0729	..	0905	1237	1506	1904	2141	2342	..	.	Llanelli	0746	..	0931	1338	1737	2235	.
Swansea	0908	1304	1818	2208	.	Swansea	0808	..	1002	1425	1814	2222	.	Swansea	0805	..	0933	1301	1534	1937	2208	0016	..	.	Swansea	0809	..	0954	1404	1801	2258	.

Obviously they are removing the late night SHR-LLO and return due to low usage. Does anyone know if it did get used in some capacity or was it literally empty each time it ran? I’m assuming the return back to Shrewsbury would likely be empty

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do any HoWL trains end up with standing passengers? Or is usage so low that never happens?

Yes - travelled on a virtually empty train so I felt obliged to buy a priv single (conducter said I did not need to as I had a free pass ,but I wanted to put some revenue in the machine) - got off at Ammanford where a large party of hikers got on - train left F&S

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Obviously they are removing the late night SHR-LLO and return due to low usage. Does anyone know if it did get used in some capacity or was it literally empty each time it ran? I’m assuming the return back to Shrewsbury would likely be empty

There was a real ale train promotion at one point, wasn’t there - out from Shrewsbury (or Church Stretton or Craven Arms) for a pint in one of the HoWL village pubs? Not sure how long it ran for.

 

[Western 52]

There were promotions for ramblers years ago too, which were very popular if the weather was good. We used them many times, with some services being full even on Sundays. We lived near Pontardulais Station at the time so the trains were very convenient.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As mentioned before - probably remnants of the time when these trains carried mail and parcels.

Maybe so, but let's face it, hundreds, if not thousands of such workings have been changed since those days.

An observation is that services were noticeably faster then, too. For example, the 12:25 from Swansea reached Shrewsbury by 16:05. Today the 12:51 from Swansea doesn’t arrive at Shrewsbury until 17:04.

It seems the new timetable planner has decided to work in dwell times of around 20 minutes at Llandod to help ensure some robustness in the schedules.

With the slow journey and risk of termination half way, most passengers would surely take the 12:54 from Swansea via Cardiff and the Marches for a few pounds more to arrive at Shrewsbury at 15:52.

I don't think any 'normal' traveller would take the HoWl to get to Shrewsbury or north thereof. I suspect it's normally faster to go via the Marches even from Llanelli - unless it's a free trip in winter, of course.

Obviously they are removing the late night SHR-LLO and return due to low usage. Does anyone know if it did get used in some capacity or was it literally empty each time it ran? I’m assuming the return back to Shrewsbury would likely be empty

Is it obvious? I mean, I'm sure they were rarely full and standing (certainly not the return runs to Shrewsbury and Swansea), but I suspect it's as much cost pressure as it was low usage. But yes, would be good to know how the loadings were.

I think the main issue with the Heart of Wales line is the single track all the way from Pontarddulais to Craven Arms aside from the 5 passing loops. Its is impossible to run an hourly or even 2 hourly service. Also due to the many cutbacks that have to be considered by TFW, due to the small population in particular the middle and north of the line, it just isnt that feasible for a more frequent service.

It's a bit bizarre that the TT is designed as much for the Llandovery - Llandod section as either end - yet the passenger usage originating from those stations between the two is pitiful.

Its unfortunate the service has been cut back to 4 trains a day rather than the 5 we had until the timetable change. Also the first train of the day is effectively an ECS movement for the first half in both directions, however with no depot mid way up the line there isnt a lot of choice with that. Its a shame a few shorter workings at each end, particularly the South, couldnt have been included.

The morning working from Shrewsbury appears to stand idle in Swansea High Street from 14.00 to the last departure at 17.48. It could easily be used for a return working to Llandeilo from c 14.45 if a crew & money were available. This would greatly increase the appeal for a trip to Swansea from those southern stations in the morning. I suspect the will is missing too, however.

 

[DelW]

It seems the new timetable planner has decided to work in dwell times of around 20 minutes at Llandod to help ensure some robustness in the schedules.

Since the crews have to swap units, about half that time will likely be needed to shut one unit down, change platforms, and open the other unit up. I imagine 153s will be quicker than modern trains full of computers, but it still seems to take several minutes for each operation.

It's a bit bizarre that the TT is designed as much for the Llandovery - Llandod section as either end - yet the passenger usage originating from those stations between the two is pitiful.

The numbers may be small, but there's very little other public transport over that section. Other than one long distance bus each way on Fridays only, Llanwrtyd, Llangammarch and Garth only have a handful of buses a day on a circular route from Builth.

 

[fishwomp]

An observation is that services were noticeably faster then, too. For example, the 12:25 from Swansea reached Shrewsbury by 16:05. Today the 12:51 from Swansea doesn’t arrive at Shrewsbury until 17:04. With the slow journey and risk of termination half way, most passengers would surely take the 12:54 from Swansea via Cardiff and the Marches for a few pounds more to arrive at Shrewsbury at 15:52.

That was the first thing I saw too. Much slower.

In 1981:

Swansea d 0544, 1010, 1225, 1458, 1905
Shrewsbury a 0922, 1344, 1605, 1837, 2240
[duration: 3h38, 3h34, 3h40, 3h39, 3h35]

Shrewsbury d 0345, 0622, 1046, 1543, 1848
Swansea a 0806, 1018, 1435, 1943, 2229
[duration: 4h21, 3h56, 3h49, 4h00, 3h41]

(no sunday service back then)

Whereas:

2024
Swansea-Shrewsbury durations: 4h13, 4h16, 4h13, 4h07
Shrewsbury-Swansea durations: 4h29, 4h02, 4h07, 4h23

What the?!

A dogbox doesn't have much in the way of power, but I thought it could outrun a 101. Back in 1981, there would've been signal boxes open rather than the current self-service token machines.

Are they still running with 30mph limits over all the open crossings, farm crossings, bat and hedgehog runs?

 

[Jez]

The morning working from Shrewsbury appears to stand idle in Swansea High Street from 14.00 to the last departure at 17.48. It could easily be used for a return working to Llandeilo from c 14.45 if a crew & money were available. This would greatly increase the appeal for a trip to Swansea from those southern stations in the morning.

I expect as you say its down to money why the unit is sat in Swansea doing nothing. Heart of Wales used to interact with Swanline quite often but now pretty much all other TFW services out of Swansea are booked for 197s there isn't much else for 153s to do.

A couple of short workings if a set and crew were available even as far as Ammanford would certainly be useful given the population there compared to places further up.

Do any HoWL trains end up with standing passengers? Or is usage so low that never happens?

Travelled back from Manchester to South Wales via heart of Wales on a single 153 between Christmas and New Year during 2019 I think it was. Full and standing all the way from Shrewbury to Knighton on the lunchtime service. There were engineering works further down the Marches which is why I went via Heart of Wales. And I expect others did the same as there were a few went all the way to Llanelli or Swansea

But that's the only time it's been anywhere near overcrowded in my experience. And granted I don't use the line regularly but I've used it a good amount of times over the last 12 years. Most of the time a single 153 is more than enough capacity. Particularly over the middle section.

It seems the new timetable planner has decided to work in dwell times of around 20 minutes at Llandod to help ensure some robustness

As much as the long dwell is a pain for anyone travelling either side of Llandod it should certainly help to keep to time. Many times services have been delayed when one or the other service has had to wait at the crossover.

 

[DelW]

As much as the long dwell is a pain for anyone travelling either side of Llandod it should certainly help to keep to time. Many times services have been delayed when one or the other service has had to wait at the crossover.

Indeed, on several of my recent trips we've had to wait half an hour or more at the crossing point, for a late running train the other way to clear the section ahead. On one occasion I remember, the conductor came through telling passengers that if they wanted refreshments, they had time to nip up to Gregg's (other cafés are available), as long as they were back on board by a certain time.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Is it obvious? I mean, I'm sure they were rarely full and standing (certainly not the return runs to Shrewsbury and Swansea), but I suspect it's as much cost pressure as it was low usage. But yes, would be good to know how the loadings were.
.

hmm yes I’d say it was obvious because if the usage was high enough, they wouldn’t have the cost pressures…? It all boils down to money. If it was used well enough to cover costs, it would have continued

 

[Harpo]

Re the 1251 from Swansea’s dwells at Llandod - Is it held back for schools traffic?

 

[Bill57p9]

Whilst the dwell times at the passing loops will significantly add to the end to end duration, given the sheer number of stations does the contemporary door open and close procedure for the guard (check local door is at platform, unlock local door, open local sliding door, check all doors are on platform, unlock doors - start hustle alarm, watch remote doors close, start hustle alarm on local door, watch it close, ding, ding*) add significant time compared to the old heritage DMUs, where people would be getting off before the thing even stopped?
(Unless of course passengers didn’t close the doors behind them)

*I’m no guard and have probably forgotten something.

 

[DelW]

Re the 1251 from Swansea’s dwells at Llandod - Is it held back for schools traffic?

According to Baxenden Bank's helpful table above, the planned dwell is from 1517 to 1533, which is fairly typical at a crossing point. The southbound service is planned to arrive at 1528, which means that the crew from that only have nominally 5 minutes to get off that, cross over the bridge, take over and set up the northbound unit and depart. That already seems quite tight to me.

Morning arrivals at Llan'dod are at 0706 and 0713, which aren't likely to be popular for schools use.