Could the Norwich - Liverpool service be sped up?

[Grecian 1998]

I dare say that if EMR thought they could fill limited stop trains omitting Sheffield with Liverpool - Peterborough and Manchester - Norwich passengers at more expensive prices than passengers doing local hops, they'd do so in a flash. The fact they haven't done so suggests there simply isn't a big market, as does the lack of Liverpool to Norwich flights.

It's possible there may be people tempted to travel end to end if you got the journey time down to near 4 hours, but I can't see how there would be enough to replace the existing passengers deterred by poorer connectivity for the journeys they're currently making using these services.

There are similar suggestions for other interregional routes on this sub-forum - I've heard the suggestion XC should run fast from Birmingham - Plymouth to cater for the far south-west, or that Cardiff - Portsmouth services could be sped up by avoiding Bristol TM and Southampton by travelling via the St Phillips avoider and Eastleigh respectively. All certainly possible, but is there a horde of people who would be tempted by slightly faster services who won't travel due to the current journey times? There would need to be to replace the existing passengers who will be lost. It seems highly doubtful to me. Passengers travelling short distances will likely be travelling far more regularly than those travelling for 4-5 hours.

Interregional services such as Liverpool - Norwich, also including XC, are always going to be a compromise between connectivity and speed. XC do sometimes avoid stops on certain lines e.g. Solihull, but it's difficult to see anyone deciding to purposefully avoid major urban areas on the more prominent ex-Provincial routes such as this one.

 

[dk1]

Nobody suggests (say) omitting Nottingham by running via Retford , but avoiding Sheffield seems very popular (although at least nobody has suggested slowing the Hope Valley service down by diverting the Norwich trains via Denton this time around!)

I suppose much of that is down to operational convenience. Nottingham is where EMR traincrew & rolling stock are based whereas Sheffield is frequently omitted & Dore curve used when trying to recover the service.

 

[Bevan Price]

The main passenger flows, at least in the North, are between neighbouring cities / large towns (e.g. Liverpool/Warrington/Manchester, Manchester/Stockport/Sheffield, etc. ) Only a minority travel for "longish" distances. Omit some stations to speed up services and you potentially lose much of your traffic.

 

[D365]

... whereas Sheffield is frequently omitted & Dore curve used when trying to recover the service.

How does this work for passengers alighting at Sheffield, or passengers at Sheffield headed west of Manchester?

 

[dk1]

How does this work for passengers alighting at Sheffield, or passengers at Sheffield headed west of Manchester?

They are put off at Chesterfield usually. Those at Sheffield just wait for the TPE or Northern.

 

[RuddA]

How does this work for passengers alighting at Sheffield, or passengers at Sheffield headed west of Manchester?

Hopefully better than when I was on a service which tried to make up time between Norwich and Peterborough by omitting Ely. Nearly all the gains were lost by passengers confusion and questions when asked to leave the train at Thetford.

 

[dk1]

Hopefully better than when I was on a service which tried to make up time between Norwich and Peterborough by omitting Ely. Nearly all the gains were lost by passengers confusion and questions when asked to leave the train at Thetford.

That is often the case & then the Ipswich-Peterborough stopper or a freight is allowed out in front lol.

 

[Bald Rick]

You have a slow service that focuses on people in the middle of the journey, and the fast service for end to end travel, with stops in only a few extra places. Say if it went via Crewe instead, the fast service would stop there.

But almost no one travels end to end, and that’s not because it takes 5 hours.

 

[William3000]

Do you mean between Derby and Clay Cross? If so, how do you get it there? Via the extra miles into Derby? That will leave you slower than via the present Erewash. And that's not counting the pathing problems across Trent and Derby jcns.


So what are you saying, avoid Ely and Sheffield?

Many here would say no, these are important traffic points.

Of course, they are. But I wonder if it could be done, perhaps on services on alternate hours - but then I suspect you run into pathing issues at the next choke point.

If you stop at these places, you need to reverse, and for that you need, er, perhaps 4-5 minutes?


Apart from the fact that units sometimes uncouple/couple up here, I suspect the planners/operators are very happy to have these minutes as recovery time, allowing late running trains (at least of a few minutes) to get back into their proper paths for the next part of the trip.

I assumed Trowel Junction to Sheffield was that speed.

I wasn’t suggesting omitting Ely and Sheffield, just reducing dwell times.

 

[dk1]

I assumed Trowel Junction to Sheffield was that speed.

I wasn’t suggesting omitting Ely and Sheffield, just reducing dwell times.

Dwell times are not normally much more than 4-6 minutes at Ely which is about right but everything has to revolve around the North Junction.

 

[Foxcover]

The other Nottingham - Sheffield option is of course via Beeston and Toton, eventually passing Trowell. BR temporarily mothballed the Trowell line for a year or so (in preparation for closure) in the ‘80s, ironically the year before the Sprinter revolution and the hourly service! Not suggesting it as a speedy alternative - it is a longer, less reliable and very tedious way round - but it’s good that we do still have Trowell Junction at all!

 

[RailWonderer]

Splitting at Nottingham would have meant less baked in recovery time needed and would've sped up both services at the cost of a few passengers losing cross Nottingham connections. I'm not sure why the DfT decided to cancel the split.

They are put off at Chesterfield usually. Those at Sheffield just wait for the TPE or Northern.

If the TPE turns up, that is.
Leaving it to EMR though was in hindsight the best thing they could have done given TPE's woes.

 

[Northumbriana]

There isn’t going to be a link from HS2 @ Piccadilly to the conventional network.

I hypothetically added one.

 

[dk1]

Splitting at Nottingham would have meant less baked in recovery time needed and would've sped up both services at the cost of a few passengers losing cross Nottingham connections. I'm not sure why the DfT decided to cancel the split.

If the TPE turns up, that is.
Leaving it to EMR though was in hindsight the best thing they could have done given TPE's woes.

I’m all for continuing it as a through service & always have been.

Only difference if it transferred to TPE would be that staff tupe’d over would stay on EMR their EMR terms & conditions so might not be that affected. Saying that though, I’m sure TPE would find away of messing that up.

 

[ChrisC]

Splitting at Nottingham would have meant less baked in recovery time needed and would've sped up both services at the cost of a few passengers losing cross Nottingham connections. I'm not sure why the DfT decided to cancel the split.

If the TPE turns up, that is.
Leaving it to EMR though was in hindsight the best thing they could have done given TPE's woes.

I don’t think that splitting at Nottingham would have done much to speed up either half of the route. As others have pointed out earlier in this thread the timings are very much set to enable the service to get through busy pinch points along the route. From what I heard, even if the route had been split, the timings were to remain more or less as they currently are. That would have meant that any late running would result in passengers who do travel across Nottingham missing the connection and having up to an hour to wait. Connections are not held these days even for a few minutes whilst people change platforms at Nottingham.

 

[Meerkat]

How busy are the 755s these days? Could they cover Norwich-Nottingham, freeing up 158s to strengthen a separate Nottingham to Liverpool service?

 

[dk1]

How busy are the 755s these days? Could they cover Norwich-Nottingham, freeing up 158s to strengthen a separate Nottingham to Liverpool service?

You cannot just split the Norwich-Liverpool service in two without consultation with stakeholders. There are surplus 755s at the moment but they are nothing to do with EMR.

 

[Meerkat]

You cannot just split the Norwich-Liverpool service in two without consultation with stakeholders. There are surplus 755s at the moment but they are nothing to do with EMR.

Are you assuming the stakeholders would be averse?
Nice new trains on the eastern bit, longer trains on the busy bit, less issue with imported delays, more flexibility for future timetables and speeding up. Seems a pretty positive change to me.
I would be swapping the Eastern bit to GA - it is surely politically more important to the Anglians than the East Midlanders so IMO should be run from there.

 

[dk1]

Are you assuming the stakeholders would be averse?
Nice new trains on the eastern bit, longer trains on the busy bit, less issue with imported delays, more flexibility for future timetables and speeding up. Seems a pretty positive change to me.
I would be swapping the Eastern bit to GA - it is surely politically more important to the Anglians than the East Midlanders so IMO should be run from there.

This has reared its head many times over the years when suggestions of splitting the route have emerged. It's usually unanimous with local politicians and the local press that it would disadvantage the region to lose any direct links. I see the positive points you mention but am still in favour of keeping the through link if possible.

 

[mike57]

Interestingly a journey that a friend undertakes fairly regularly, Manchester Piccadilly to Peterborough, is about 20-30 mins quicker if you travel via Doncaster, and change there, I am not suggesting that the current service should be rerouted that way, but it does show that the current route is slow. I have done Sheffield - Warrington on a few occasions and the bit that seems to be a crawl is the section through Hazel Grove, not sure why, as it looks fairly straight until the curve near Stockport to join the mainline.

 

[dk1]

Interestingly a journey that a friend undertakes fairly regularly, Manchester Piccadilly to Peterborough, is about 20-30 mins quicker if you travel via Doncaster, and change there, I am not suggesting that the current service should be rerouted that way, but it does show that the current route is slow. I have done Sheffield - Warrington on a few occasions and the bit that seems to be a crawl is the section through Hazel Grove, not sure why, as it looks fairly straight until the curve near Stockport to join the mainline.

It’s not necessarily that it’s slow but it meanders to serve so many markets along the route & the ECML is a prime 125mph line with many running non-stop between Doncaster & Peterborough. Fastest journeys via Donny have been a feature since the routes inception in the 1980s.

Frequently I remain on board throughout from the NW to East Anglia then others I go via Doncaster or even Retford on the odd occasion there’s a decent connection there. Just see how the mood takes me on the day.

 

[Tester]

Frequently I remain on board throughout from the NW to East Anglia then others I go via Doncaster or even Retford on the odd occasion there’s a decent connection there. Just see how the mood takes me on the day.

Presumably not when you are driving

 

[dk1]

Presumably not when you are driving

I could drive the 170s but although I've driven 158s I never signed them officially.

 

[William3000]

You cannot just split the Norwich-Liverpool service in two without consultation with stakeholders. There are surplus 755s at the moment but they are nothing to do with EMR.

Could Greater Anglia run Nottingham to Norwich with their 755s. The 755s are in my opinion, as a passenger, fantastic. They are ‘inter-city’ quality (the interior is essentially the same as the London Liverpool St to Norwich 745s minus the first class and buffet. Massive step up from the aging 158s.

 

[Bartsimho]

Could Greater Anglia run Nottingham to Norwich with their 755s. The 755s are in my opinion, as a passenger, fantastic. They are ‘inter-city’ quality (the interior is essentially the same as the London Liverpool St to Norwich 745s minus the first class and buffet. Massive step up from the aging 158s.

How easy is it to reverse them as they need to at Ely. It's within the range but maybe the swap could be at Peterborough/Grantham at EMR would still want a connection to the ECML from Nottingham southwards (i.e. not just at Newark).
Although the newer units would be nice for those on the route.

 

[dk1]

Could Greater Anglia run Nottingham to Norwich with their 755s. The 755s are in my opinion, as a passenger, fantastic. They are ‘inter-city’ quality (the interior is essentially the same as the London Liverpool St to Norwich 745s minus the first class and buffet. Massive step up from the aging 158s.

They could but how can you unless you completely change the franchise/concession agreements for the two train operators? Would have a large impact on traincrews and training. These things are never easy, quick or cheap to implement.

 

[Bartsimho]

How feasible would running 5 car trains all the way as the 2 car from Norwich into Nottingham is commonly busy and the 4 cars onwards is busy as well. I'm unsure about platform lengths and if you could maybe move some higher capacity trains over.

 

[dk1]

How feasible would running 5 car trains all the way as the 2 car from Norwich into Nottingham is commonly busy and the 4 cars onwards is busy as well. I'm unsure about platform lengths and if you could maybe move some higher capacity trains over.

Most stations could accommodate them but doubt EMR will ever be blessed with enough rolling stock for it to happen.

 

[Bartsimho]

Most stations could accommodate them but doubt EMR will ever be blessed with enough rolling stock for it to happen.

I would have wanted some 222's to shift into 5 car sets and run the route after the introduction of the 810's. Too much of a pipedream unfortunately.

 

[dk1]

Off the top of my head Brandon (both) & Attleborough (down) would struggle with five although only selected services call at these stations. Can’t really speak for the rest.