Could the railways be renationalised under Labour and what should happen in the meantime?

[Nicholas Lewis]

Moderator note: Split from
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/kings-speech-rail.257351/

Quite frankly the less they do the better as it will force Labours hand to either say its going to renationalise or not

 

[riceuten]

Quite frankly the less they do the better as it will force Labours hand to either say its going to renationalise or not

Right, so you want the government to do nothing and plan nothing?

 

[Purple Train]

Right, so you want the government to do nothing and plan nothing?

Well, it is better than planning something and doing nothing!

 

[The exile]

Well, it is better than planning something and doing nothing!

Or indeed planning nothing and doing something!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Right, so you want the government to do nothing and plan nothing?

In terms of legislation yes as that would have backed Labour into a corner and probably left them sitting on the fence so now they have a clean sheet and it will force them to come clean on renationalisation.

 

[camflyer]

In terms of legislation yes as that would have backed Labour into a corner and probably left them sitting on the fence so now they have a clean sheet and it will force them to come clean on renationalisation.

Personally, I don't care if the answer is full nationalisation, a franchise model or something in between. We just need some progress.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Personally, I don't care if the answer is full nationalisation, a franchise model or something in between. We just need some progress.

I personally think that a huge start would be to integrate LNER, Northern, TPE and SE under one brand name (whether that be Great British Railways, British Rail or something else) and gradually add TOCs to the company as their franchises end could be a good strategy. (This is purely speculation.)

 

[camflyer]

I personally think that a huge start would be to integrate LNER, Northern, TPE and SE under one brand name (whether that be Great British Railways, British Rail or something else) and gradually add TOCs to the company as their franchises end could be a good strategy.

Bring back Network SouthEast! They had a much better brand than British Rail back in the day. NSE was good, InterCity was mostly good but BR was just the bits in the regions which didn't work.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Bring back Network SouthEast!

I fully agree, even just rebranding SE into NSE and gradually adding GTR, SWR and C2C once their franchises end. (Note that this is purely speculation.)

 

[eldomtom2]

Quite frankly the less they do the better as it will force Labours hand to either say its going to renationalise or not

Isn't the official policy of Labour still that they will renationalise the railways, though they haven't said much on the topic for a while?

 

[GWVillager]

Isn't the official policy of Labour still that they will renationalise the railways, though they haven't said much on the topic for a while?

Yes, they even made a big document explaining how they were going to do it (https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/GB_Rail_Labour_Opposition_White_Paper.pdf). But so much has changed since then, it's difficult to be certain if this is still the plan.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I personally think that a huge start would be to integrate LNER, Northern, TPE and SE under one brand name (whether that be Great British Railways, British Rail or something else) and gradually add TOCs to the company as their franchises end could be a good strategy.

Id wager this will become Labour policy as its cuts them slack to worry about other more important societal needs.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I fully agree, even just rebranding SE into NSE and gradually adding GTR, SWR and C2C once their franchises end.

Good idea apart from the less than fond memories many people have of NSE.

 

[camflyer]

Good idea apart from the less than fond memories many people have of NSE.

When I moved from the NE to the SE in 1990, I thought that NSE were fantastic. I had grown up thinking trains were something we only used on special occasions but here I was in an area where people used them every day. The separate branding from British Rail made them feel like a totally different service. It was the BR brand which brings back less than fond memories.

Creating a new brand of "GB Rail" (Labour) or "Great British Railways" (Conservative) from nothing is going to be hard. Chances are that people will just call it British Rail anyway

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Isn't the official policy of Labour still that they will renationalise the railways, though they haven't said much on the topic for a while?

No it isn’t, their policy is to bring the remaining contracted TOCs in house.

No plans to nationalise the remaining parts of the railway (freight, ROSCOs, open access etc).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't the official policy of Labour still that they will renationalise the railways, though they haven't said much on the topic for a while?

Labour has never said how it would organise its nationalised railway, beyond recalling the private TOC contracts as they expired (some of which which might be a decade away).
Even the Corbyn proposals in 2019 didn't envisage nationalising freight, open access or rolling stock.
It has also never explained how the devolved operations and local concessions would fit in.
The Tories' GBR was supposed to be built on the Network Rail Regional structure.

 

[eldomtom2]

No it isn’t, their policy is to bring the remaining contracted TOCs in house.

No plans to nationalise the remaining parts of the railway (freight, ROSCOs, open access etc).

Semantics.

Labour has never said how it would organise its nationalised railway, beyond retaining the private TOC contracts as they expire (some of which which might be a decade away).

What's this then?

Yes, they even made a big document explaining how they were going to do it (https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/GB_Rail_Labour_Opposition_White_Paper.pdf). But so much has changed since then, it's difficult to be certain if this is still the plan.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Semantics

Not having any trains owned in house under a nationalised business is hardly semantics!

Bearing in mind NR is already nationalised as are some of the TOCs ir is only a very modest change to todays setup which is proposed.

 

[GWVillager]

No it isn’t, their policy is to bring the remaining contracted TOCs in house.

No plans to nationalise the remaining parts of the railway (freight, ROSCOs, open access etc).

To quote their 2020 proposal:

The next Labour government will enable GB Rail to draw on its National Transformation Fund to purchase new trains at the highly efficient financing rates available to government, rather than continuing the profit leakage and excessive financing costs created by the present system of hiring trains ad infinitum from private companies.
For existing rolling stock that remains outside public ownership a Labour government will introduce measures for regulatory action to curtail excessive ROSCO profits and ensure that older rolling stock is provided more cheaply. Labour will also explore the value of public ownership of train manufacturing and refurbishment capabilities.

You can certainly debate whether that will actually happen, and even if the document remains as Labour's proposal, but it's wrong to say there are no plans.

 

[eldomtom2]

Not having any trains owned in house under a nationalised business is hardly semantics!

Didn't BR use "sell and leaseback" agreements at times?

Bearing in mind NR is already nationalised as are some of the TOCs ir is only a very modest change to todays setup which is proposed.#

The OLR is strictly speaking "meant" to be a temporary measure.

 

[Chester1]

I personally think that a huge start would be to integrate LNER, Northern, TPE and SE under one brand name (whether that be Great British Railways, British Rail or something else) and gradually add TOCs to the company as their franchises end could be a good strategy.

When I moved from the NE to the SE in 1990, I thought that NSE were fantastic. I had grown up thinking trains were something we only used on special occasions but here I was in an area where people used them every day. The separate branding from British Rail made them feel like a totally different service. It was the BR brand which brings back less than fond memories.

Creating a new brand of "GB Rail" (Labour) or "Great British Railways" (Conservative) from nothing is going to be hard. Chances are that people will just call it British Rail anyway

The country has moved on since BR. There will not be one national operator under any party. Excluding Northern Ireland which was always seperate for rail, there is zero chance of either party taking over TfW or Scotrail. Northern and TPE are partially regulated by TfN. I don’t know if there is a similar arrangement for South Eastern. Freight won't be nationalised by either party. The Tories may setup Great British Railways to manage private operators and Labour may create a national intercity operator. I can't see Labour taking power away from local authorities re Northern, TPE and Merseyrail. If anything, making them fully publically owned by local government is more likely.

 

[D6130]

Didn't BR use "sell and leaseback" agreements at times?

On a similar - but slightly different basis - I believe that the class 50s were originally owned by English Electric and leased to BR. ISTR that the was a small plate on the bodysides of each loco proclaiming the fact.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On a similar - but slightly different basis - I believe that the class 50s were originally owned by English Electric and leased to BR. ISTR that the was a small plate on the bodysides of each loco proclaiming the fact.

The class 365s were also initially leased by BR.
Most rolling stock on the continent, and around the world, is leased.

 

[LiftFan]

To quote their 2020 proposal:

You can certainly debate whether that will actually happen, and even if the document remains as Labour's proposal, but it's wrong to say there are no plans.

It would be good just to change leasing so that we no longer have situations as we do right now with the 379s- perfectly good rolling stock with nobody to use them, all because the leasing costs are so high.

 

[irish_rail]

The country has moved on since BR. There will not be one national operator under any party. Excluding Northern Ireland which was always seperate for rail, there is zero chance of either party taking over TfW or Scotrail. Northern and TPE are partially regulated by TfN. I don’t know if there is a similar arrangement for South Eastern. Freight won't be nationalised by either party. The Tories may setup Great British Railways to manage private operators and Labour may create a national intercity operator. I can't see Labour taking power away from local authorities re Northern, TPE and Merseyrail. If anything, making them fully publically owned by local government is more likely.

Has that ever been stated by Labour? I wish to God they would reintroduce the intercity brand but I don't recall Labour ever mentioning this?

 

[YorkRailFan]

The country has moved on since BR. There will not be one national operator under any party. Excluding Northern Ireland which was always seperate for rail, there is zero chance of either party taking over TfW or Scotrail. Northern and TPE are partially regulated by TfN. I don’t know if there is a similar arrangement for South Eastern. Freight won't be nationalised by either party. The Tories may setup Great British Railways to manage private operators and Labour may create a national intercity operator. I can't see Labour taking power away from local authorities re Northern, TPE and Merseyrail. If anything, making them fully publically owned by local government is more likely.

I think for regional operators, like Northern, TPE and Merseyrail, local ownership is a good thing as it puts the local authorities in charge, of course Scotrail and TFW will remain separate but TOCs like LNER, Avanti, the Intercity part of GWR, and EMR should fall under a single Intercity brand. (Note that I am just speculating)

 

[yorksrob]

Labour has never said how it would organise its nationalised railway, beyond recalling the private TOC contracts as they expired (some of which which might be a decade away).
Even the Corbyn proposals in 2019 didn't envisage nationalising freight, open access or rolling stock.
It has also never explained how the devolved operations and local concessions would fit in.
The Tories' GBR was supposed to be built on the Network Rail Regional structure.

They'd be better off sidelining organisational issues for the time being, and coming straight out in the manifesto with an eye-catching initiative that will capture the travelling public's imagination, such as a National railcard.

 

[GWVillager]

Has that ever been stated by Labour? I wish to God they would reintroduce the intercity brand but I don't recall Labour ever mentioning this?

The aforementioned 2020 document details the establishment of a “GB Rail Mainline Business Unit” to operate intercity services. This wouldn’t be the brand name, obviously, and it goes on to state the success of Intercity’s image and how the Mainline Business Unit would be tasked with creating an integrated brand identity. Whilst not explicitly stated, Intercity seems to be the most likely option.

Is there something I’m missing about this proposal? I struggle to believe that I’m the only one who’s read or even heard of it, though I suppose it was released at the height of the pandemic, so probably escaped media attention.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there something I’m missing about this proposal? I struggle to believe that I’m the only one who’s read or even heard of it, though I suppose it was released at the height of the pandemic, so probably escaped media attention.

Re-reading the 2020 document, it comes over as Andy McDonald's* personal view of rail reorganisation, with an Ian Taylor largely credited for the detail.
There was also an earlier union-sponsored study along similar lines.

There are several elephants in the room which have emerged since 2020.
The first is financing of the rail industry, with the current model broken and a shortfall of a couple of billion a year in rail funding.
Second is the way TOC contracts are now let (NRCs), and the retreat of foreign involvement (the exit of NS and DB from TOC contracts).
Third is the political changes to do with post-Brexit/Covid/Ukraine economic woes, high inflation/taxes etc and the general crisis in public services.
Fourth would be the recent cancellation of HS2 beyond phase 1, and "Network North".

The current Labour leadership is understandably very cautious about making funding commitments, and intends to stay within the Tory government spending limits for its first parliament (as Gordon Brown did post-1997).
So the scope for radical change is less than Andy McDonald's blue sky approach.
Kier Starmer also wants to be business-friendly, and cancelling private sector involvement in rail is not the way to do that.
Even Andy Burnham is proposing to franchise out Greater Manchester's bus services to the private sector, as happens in London.

The key Labour personalities at the moment (with Starmer) are Rachel Reeves (Shadow Chancellor) and Louise Haigh (Shadow Transport SoS).
I don't envy their challenge in making sense of the rail brief when they start work, and there's time for the Tories to make further irreversible changes in the next year.
I doubt the DfT will be given funds and scope to implement the 2020 proposals.

* Andy McDonald was Shadow Transport SoS in Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet, 2016-20.

 

[43066]

Has that ever been stated by Labour? I wish to God they would reintroduce the intercity brand but I don't recall Labour ever mentioning this?

We still have that on my part of the railway!