Could the safety authorities ban black fronts on trains?

[irish_rail]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458/

The yellow bands were chosen with our disability reference group particularly those with partial sight. Chevrons can be very confusing for these passengers.

Retaining Julie Berry was a clear request from many passengers including some with hearing impairment.

Equipment on the roof is commonplace on low floor trams and trains around the world. The U.K. is unusual in having high floored trains hence most equipment in the underframe. The risk of ballast damage is greater than bricks imho. All the equipment casing, cabling and piping are well protected up top and down below anyway. Let’s see…

Can I ask about why black fronts where chosen. Surely these are poor visibility wise from foot crossings for members of the public and there is also the issue with sunlight reflecting off the front and dazzling drivers (I say this as a driver who has experienced this)

I know black seems very in vogue but at some point surely it will be banned when the safety authorities get involved eventually. Would yellow fronts not have been more sensible ( and frankly aesthetically pleasing!)

 

[Razorblades]

Can I ask about why black fronts where chosen. Surely these are poor visibility wise from foot crossings for members of the public and there is also the issue with sunlight reflecting off the front and dazzling drivers (I say this as a driver who has experienced this)
I know black seems very in vogue but at some point surely it will be banned when the safety authorities get involved eventually. Would yellow fronts not have been more sensible ( and frankly aesthetically pleasing!)

Safety requirements along with all applicable standards are taken into consideration from the commencement of concept design. Surely you're not suggesting that trains are built without reference to legislation and accepted parameters, which would be bizarre to say the least?

Front end illumination and visibility as a subject, including its application to new builds such as the Class 777 has been approved by the relevant regulatory bodies, including all its safety aspects and implications. The Class 777 during build and construction, audit, testing and introduction, has complied with all applicable standards. I say this as someone involved with new build design and fleet introduction for the best part of 35 years.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The answer to the question could the RSSB insist the front of trains are yellow is clearly yes they could if they considered it a safety risk but the reason the front of trains whose lights meet a certain standard no longer have to have a yellow front is because the RSSB changed the rules several years ago stating they didn’t require one. There were arguments against it at the time and they were repeated when the first trains without yellow warning panels were introduced but, as is usual with these things, none of the predictions of doom came to fruition.

 

[D365]

I know black seems very in vogue but at some point surely it will be banned when the safety authorities get involved eventually. Would yellow fronts not have been more sensible ( and frankly aesthetically pleasing!)

The "safety authorities" were involved from the very start!

 

[Ashley Hill]

I’m surprised TfW get away with red fronts!

 

[Hadders]

I’m surprised TfW get away with red fronts!

London Underground has had red fronts for years.

 

[stuu]

The reflection issue should be sorted out, but in my experience when you can see a long way down a line, the headlamps are visible before you can make out the train. Yellow fronts are also invisible for ~50% of the time.

 

[43096]

London Underground has had red fronts for years.

So have DB in Germany. Doesn't seem to cause any issues!

 

[Ashley Hill]

Having grown up on a railway where red meant danger a train with a bright red front just seems wrong.

 

[Kneedown]

Under certain background, and lighting conditions, yellow ends very hard to pick out.
I really think that whatever colour you paint the
the end of a train, there will be a lighting and background combination that makes it blend in rather than stand out.
Far better to have good front end illumination.

 

[D365]

Having grown up on a railway where red meant danger a train with a bright red front just seems wrong.

A train coming directly at you is danger, no?

(I fear I might be missing your point!)

 

[edwin_m]

A train coming directly at you is danger, no?

(I fear I might be missing your point!)

At a long distance and/or in poor visibility, a red-fronted train on a parallel track (hence no collision risk) might be confused with a danger signal such as a red flag being waved. For similar reasons, any road vehicles driving trackside are supposed to turn their rear lights off, and there was a thread on here recently about people wheeling bicycles on station platforms having to turn their rear lights off too.

EU interoperability may also have had a role in the dropping of yellow ends. Unless a country-specific rule could be justified, the EU tended to see it as an unfair constraint on interoperability.

 

[pdeaves]

Black fronts are highly unimaginative use of livery space but, as others have stated above, perfectly OK to the 'safety bodies'. Trains must have the appropriate lights. Hence, most HST power cars must still have yellow but the 'blue Pullman' ones were modified with modern compliant lighting and do not require yellow.

 

[bramling]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-class-777.153458/

Can I ask about why black fronts where chosen. Surely these are poor visibility wise from foot crossings for members of the public and there is also the issue with sunlight reflecting off the front and dazzling drivers (I say this as a driver who has experienced this)

I know black seems very in vogue but at some point surely it will be banned when the safety authorities get involved eventually. Would yellow fronts not have been more sensible ( and frankly aesthetically pleasing!)

The safety authorities have presumably already concluded it’s okay.

Personally I’ve mixed views. I’m not convinced a different colour front is any harder to pick out, however several generations of people, both staff and users of crossings, are used to yellow fronts. In that sense I’d prefer them to have been kept. As an by-product it was also one area that garish designers couldn’t interfere with!

 

[43096]

Black fronts are highly unimaginative use of livery space but, as others have stated above, perfectly OK to the 'safety bodies'. Trains must have the appropriate lights. Hence, most HST power cars must still have yellow but the 'blue Pullman' ones were modified with modern compliant lighting and do not require yellow.

The RailAdventure power cars are also similarly modified and do not have yellow ends either.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A train coming directly at you is danger, no?

(I fear I might be missing your point!)

It’s not a danger if it’s on the opposite line,but seeing red in the distance gives one a choice. Is it an oncoming train or a red danger signal? The red ends are purely designer led and not practical.

London Underground has had red fronts for years.

Nor did they have yellow,but it’s a different system.

So have DB in Germany. Doesn't seem to cause any issues!

Different country/different practices. I’m just a bit old school I’m afraid. (I haven’t got a grey haired emoji).

 

[irish_rail]

I suppose I'm thinking particularly of people with disabilities (for example early stage dementia) who may get confused at a foot crossings at a train with a black front and weird M shape lights that doesn't really look like what we in this country know as a train. I'm probably over thinking it, but I can't help but feel the RSSB just agrees to these things , when really there is a very slight reduction in safety. But any reduction could lead to a loss of life or serious injury. And for what? So we can say the train has a black front.....I know the safety bodies have okayed this....for now....but I personally believe they will be forced to backtrack within 5 years or so.

 

[JKF]

It’s not a danger if it’s on the opposite line,but seeing red in the distance gives one a choice. Is it an oncoming train or a red danger signal?

How does it work on three or four tracked sections or with freight loops where it would be possible to approach or pass a train on an adjacent track that was showing a red tail lamp/lights? Does that not trigger a reaction from drivers?

there was a thread on here recently about people wheeling bicycles on station platforms having to turn their rear lights off too.

I got told to do that a few years back, I think at Leeds. I should have known better as a sentinel card holder!

 

[Hadders]

Nor did they have yellow,but it’s a different system

That shares Network Rail owned track in places.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I suppose I'm thinking particularly of people with disabilities (for example early stage dementia) who may get confused at a foot crossings at a train with a black front and weird M shape lights that doesn't really look like what we in this country know as a train. I'm probably over thinking it, but I can't help but feel the RSSB just agrees to these things , when really there is a very slight reduction in safety. But any reduction could lead to a loss of life or serious injury. And for what? So we can say the train has a black front.....I know the safety bodies have okayed this....for now....but I personally believe they will be forced to backtrack within 5 years or so.

Your initial concern was the visibility but now you seem accept that people will see it but not recognise it as a train and just walk in front of it. The rule I live by is if I see a huge chunk of metal hurtling towards me I keep out of its way whether I recognise what it is or not.

 

[D365]

I got told to do that a few years back, I think at Leeds. I should have known better as a sentinel card holder!

Happens to the best of us!

 

[irish_rail]

Your initial concern was the visibility but now you seem accept that people will see it but not recognise it as a train and just walk in front of it. The rule I live by is if I see a huge chunk of metal hurtling towards me I keep out of its way whether I recognise what it is or not.

Not if said huge chunk is off in the distance. So crossing a crossing. Elderly person looks up , way off in distance some weird lights. Thats all. Starts crossing, slips, trips or whatever. By now its too late. Especially as its getting darker or after dark, all that will be visible will be lights / lost in a sea of other lighting from nearby roads and buildings. Whereas at least with the yellow fronts it tends to bring a shape and outline that are visible far sooner and easier. If even one person dies in the lifetime of these trains as a result of what I'm saying then the RSSB has blood on its hands. They probably have made the calculation that the margin of safety is only very very very tiny amount less safe. Yes but imagine that is your partner, grandparent or child etc who get mown down from getting confused. It just isn't worth it. Especially when the black looks so damn bad.

 

[JamesT]

Not if said huge chunk is off in the distance. So crossing a crossing. Elderly person looks up , way off in distance some weird lights. Thats all. Starts crossing, slips, trips or whatever. By now its too late. Especially as its getting darker or after dark, all that will be visible will be lights / lost in a sea of other lighting from nearby roads and buildings. Whereas at least with the yellow fronts it tends to bring a shape and outline that are visible far sooner and easier. If even one person dies in the lifetime of these trains as a result of what I'm saying then the RSSB has blood on its hands. They probably have made the calculation that the margin of safety is only very very very tiny amount less safe. Yes but imagine that is your partner, grandparent or child etc who get mown down from getting confused. It just isn't worth it. Especially when the black looks so damn bad.

Wasn’t the requirement for yellow merely to be a panel on the front? How is that going to help with the outline of the vehicle? The 777 appears to have the ends of its yellow wrap round to the ends, so you’re going to get a contrasting lighter outline.
Surely if you see lights that appear to be moving when you’re about to make a crossing you stop and wait? Regardless of whether you recognise them as being a train. There are already things like road-rail vehicles that won’t have a conventional train outline, should they be banned too?

 

[stuu]

That really is overthinking it. The first thing anyone sees will be the very bright lights, the same as every other train. If someone doesn't recognise something moving towards them on a railway line is most likely a train, they probably shouldn't be allowed out by themselves.

How do yellow fronts help at night?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Not if said huge chunk is off in the distance. So crossing a crossing. Elderly person looks up , way off in distance some weird lights. Thats all. Starts crossing, slips, trips or whatever. By now its too late. Especially as its getting darker or after dark, all that will be visible will be lights / lost in a sea of other lighting from nearby roads and buildings. Whereas at least with the yellow fronts it tends to bring a shape and outline that are visible far sooner and easier. If even one person dies in the lifetime of these trains as a result of what I'm saying then the RSSB has blood on its hands. They probably have made the calculation that the margin of safety is only very very very tiny amount less safe. Yes but imagine that is your partner, grandparent or child etc who get mown down from getting confused. It just isn't worth it. Especially when the black looks so damn bad.

This seems like a really tenuous argument to say i dont like the colour of the new trains, yellow good. Change bad.

When the shape of trains changed from steam trains to diesel was there all of a sudden a spike of people getting hit because they didnt recognise a rectangle coming towards them compared to a more circular shape.

When crossing a road at night i particularly rely on being able to see the headlights, not by trying to identify the colour of the vehicle.

 

[tbtc]

Would yellow fronts not have been more sensible ( and frankly aesthetically pleasing!)

It just isn't worth it. Especially when the black looks so damn bad.

There are lines to be drawn over safety (which is always a difficult decision, e.g. should all trains doing 125mph have a serving member of staff in the cab “Just In Case”, as was once required?), but if i were making the argument then I’d stay away from things like the fact that i find yellow a prettier colour than black because this needs to be decided by risk assessment rather than what’s “aesthetically pleasing” to one individual

(If the focus is on elderly/ disabled/ people with dementia struggling to cope with foot crossings then surely this is more about the danger of such crossings rather than a preference for primary colours… yet when the footbridge at Wennington became dangerous, several people on here sounded keen for a barrow crossing… it seems that we need to make huge changes to deal with the unsafe nature of such things but it’s fun when “we” get to cross the tracks at ground level)

Anyhow, since a lot more people are killed on the road each year, maybe the front of every car/ lorry should be yellow too?

 

[edwin_m]

This seems like a really tenuous argument to say i dont like the colour of the new trains, yellow good. Change bad.

When the shape of trains changed from steam trains to diesel was there all of a sudden a spike of people getting hit because they didnt recognise a rectangle coming towards them compared to a more circular shape.

When crossing a road at night i particularly rely on being able to see the headlights, not by trying to identify the colour of the vehicle.

It's an interesting point as the front ends of diesels were originally green, and no British train at the time would have had any form of light that was discernable at a distance in daylight. The diesels may have been approaching faster and with less noise (electrics even more so). I believe that was the reason to introduce yellow ends back in the 1960s.

 

[dosxuk]

Especially as its getting darker or after dark, all that will be visible will be lights / lost in a sea of other lighting from nearby roads and buildings.

You mean exactly the same as it would be with a yellow front? The yellow paintwork wasn't illuminated to make it visible during the hours of darkness - people waiting to cross lineside have always relied on the lights once it gets dark.

 

[dastocks]

The colour of the train is completely immaterial if it has proper lights on the front of it - in some situations a dark colour can help to provide contrast with the headlights and surroundings.

I think it would be worth considering if anything could be done to make the lights on the front of a train even more conspicuous and distinctive. As an example I have seen videos on YouTube from the USA where some trains have alternately flashing lights.

 

[irish_rail]

OK ill leave this black front love in alone. Personally I think it bizarre, and next time I get dazzled by a Crossrail 345 I will be reporting to the relevant authorities through CIRAS. This nonsense needs to stop.