Could we ever see a country wide "oyster card" for the UK rail network?

[Fazaar1889]

Similar to the ov card in the netherlands. Would mean I won't have to check the timetable and buy a ticket for a specific train, I can just get on the next one.
Maybe even extend it to the trams and buses if the buses ever get under centralised control.

 

[InkyScrolls]

While I'm sure it's possible I wouldn't recommend not checking the timetable - away from the Southeast gaps of two or three hours (or more!) are not uncommon.

 

[Fazaar1889]

While I'm sure it's possible I wouldn't recommend not checking the timetable - away from the Southeast gaps of two or three hours (or more!) are not uncommon.

Ah fair enough. Luckily, the only train I get is every 15 mins, swapping between express and stopping. Fortunately, it's never been delayed for me.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Then you are, and have been, remarkably lucky!

 

[skyhigh]

There's been loads of discussion about this, but the main issues boil down to things like -
If someone taps in but doesn't tap out, what fare should they be charged? I.e. someone taps in at Leeds. They might have gone to Burley Park (Anytime Single £3.40). Alternatively, they could have got a train all the way to Penzance (Anytime Single £237.10).

A couple of recent threads -

Could all stations eventually get ticket barriers? And could this allow contactless PAYG to be rolled out nationwide?

Platform edge doors are very pie-in-the-sky in terms of widespread coverage at every single British railway station, but here’s something that is probably more realistic and will bring much greater benefits: How about a long-term rolling programme to get every single station fitted with ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

Could the contactless payment increase make widespread PAYG feasible?

Today's budget included an announcement that the contactless payment limit was increasing from £45 to £100. As a lot of rail journeys cost under £100 each way, would it be feasible for the industry to start working towards a nationwide touch-in/touch-out pay-as-you-go scheme?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[PeterC]

There's been loads of discussion about this, but the main issues boil down to things like -
If someone taps in but doesn't tap out, what fare should they be charged? I.e. someone taps in at Leeds. They might have gone to Burley Park (Anytime Single £3.40). Alternatively, they could have got a train all the way to Penzance (Anytime Single £237.10).

Autocomplete to the fare for the most popular destination. In that case possibly York. A long distance traveller should get checked on the train at that point you adjust the autocomplete fare to that to either the destination of a major intermediate point such as Birmingham.

As long as most people encounter either a gateline or a onboard check there this shouldn't be a significant issue. Of course there may need to be a bit more rigour about on board checks on some services.

 

[XAM2175]

... I won't have to check the timetable and buy a ticket for a specific train, I can just get on the next one. ...

You know you can already do this, right?

 

[zwk500]

Similar to the ov card in the netherlands. Would mean I won't have to check the timetable and buy a ticket for a specific train, I can just get on the next one.
Maybe even extend it to the trams and buses if the buses ever get under centralised control.

I think given the variety of services and fare types in the UK, this idea won't ever be practical (1st class, different routing fares, etc). What would be nice is if every city that uses a Zonal ticketing system could move to the contactless bank card PAYG system like TfL.

 

[crablab]

think given the variety of services and fare types in the UK, this idea won't ever be practical (1st class, different routing fares, etc).

Chipkaart handles 1st class (and other discounts) with a "settings" menu you configure on a TVM.

Different operators and routings are handled by checking in on platform validators.

If someone taps in but doesn't tap out, what fare should they be charged?

On Chipkaart a maximin charge is applied, like Oyster, which can be corrected manually if you ask. I believe it varies between mode, and is €20 or so on NS.

Of course there may need to be a bit more rigour about on board checks on some services.

It's a lot easier when you're just reading cards. NS ticket inspectors go through trains at quite a rate!

 

[Fazaar1889]

Chipkaart handles 1st class (and other discounts) with a "settings" menu you configure on a TVM.

Different operators and routings are handled by checking in on platform validators.



On Chipkaart a maximin charge is applied, like Oyster, which can be corrected manually if you ask. I believe it varies between mode, and is €20 or so on NS.


It's a lot easier when you're just reading cards. NS ticket inspectors go through trains at quite a rate!

Would the various fares that different bus services charge make a difference? Could a possible solution be that each bus service registers and uploads their prices and the card would recognise which service they use?

 

[crablab]

Would the various fares that different bus services charge make a difference? Could a possible solution be that each bus service registers and uploads their prices and the card would recognise which service they use?

That's how Chipkaart works, yes. Although it's limited, as I understand it, to fairly simple distance based fares. I'm not sure exactly what options there are, but I don't think that's an insurmountable problem.

It's also a more efficient process, with passengers boarding via multiple doors and checking in, and then checking out at their destination. Much, much faster than a single stream of people buying paper tickets from a driver.

 

[Sm5]

UK should in my opinion have fares at a flat rate per mile.

That would sort out the efficient from the inefficient.
If that flat rate was set at fares per mile charged in the South East, then the network will soon be profitable… by passenger revenue or closures.

This is how it is in all industries, including private transportation.

 

[JonathanH]

UK should in my opinion have fares at a flat rate per mile.

That would sort out the efficient from the inefficient.
If that flat rate was set at fares per mile charged in the South East, then the network will soon be profitable… by passenger revenue or closures.

The cost of operation doesn't have a fixed level per mile. Ironically some of the more expensive routes to travel on have a much lower cost per passenger mile because the fixed costs are spread over more people. Therefore it would reduce profit.

A structure that started with a flat rate per mile approach would have to be tapered for distance, reflect service levels, demand and perhaps quality.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There's been loads of discussion about this, but the main issues boil down to things like -
If someone taps in but doesn't tap out, what fare should they be charged? I.e. someone taps in at Leeds. They might have gone to Burley Park (Anytime Single £3.40). Alternatively, they could have got a train all the way to Penzance (Anytime Single £237.10).

A couple of recent threads -

Could all stations eventually get ticket barriers? And could this allow contactless PAYG to be rolled out nationwide?

Platform edge doors are very pie-in-the-sky in terms of widespread coverage at every single British railway station, but here’s something that is probably more realistic and will bring much greater benefits: How about a long-term rolling programme to get every single station fitted with ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

Could the contactless payment increase make widespread PAYG feasible?

Today's budget included an announcement that the contactless payment limit was increasing from £45 to £100. As a lot of rail journeys cost under £100 each way, would it be feasible for the industry to start working towards a nationwide touch-in/touch-out pay-as-you-go scheme?

www.railforums.co.uk

Arriving a little late, but I really think that this objection is a red herring.

I think we are all agreed that on a local network, failure to tap in and out (or otherwise to do whatever the rules are) should result in being charged the maximum fare on that network - possibly plus an admin/penalty charge. So if Merseyrail is a local network, then someone who only taps in will pay the fare from Southport to Chester, plus whatever charge has been agreed as policy.

And it's possible to imagine that there will be other local networks. It's not too difficult to imagine a Liverpool network stretching out to Warrington, and a Manchester network starting at Warrington and continuing to Stalybridge.

So do we treat this as one network, but with a default fare from Chester to Stalybridge (via Liverpool and Manchester)? No: we treat it as two networks - but we make sure that everyone travelling from one network to another has their tickets (more accurately, their credit/debit card) checked when they leave one zone and enter the other. We could do that by turfing everyone out of the train at Warrington Central and making them go through barriers before rejoining the train: more realistically we do it by making sure that all inter-network trains have a thorough ticket check at or around the change-over point. So someone who entered the Liverpool network at Bank Hall without tapping in but is travelling to Manchester via Hunts Cross and Warrington will have their card checked at or near Warrington so paying the Liverpool default fare, and will then either tap out at Manchester (so also paying the Warrington to Manchester fare) or hop off without tapping out at Irlam (so also paying the Manchester default fare).

For sure, doing a full ticket check at or near Warrington won't be easy (one inspector on the train? Or a whole team boarding at Warrington and then hopping off at Irlam?). But if the railway isn't prepared to accept the cost of enforcing compliance then they will presumably be prepared to accept the cost of passengers not paying the right fare.

For completeness, the same can be applied even more easily on long distance (so, in practice, limited stop) trains. If you get on the Leeds to Penzance train without tapping in or out, you will indeed pay the anytime single fare of £237.10 (plus penalty/admin fee as per policy). But realistically very few people will be travelling that distance on a whim: most passengers will have pre-planned their journey and will have bought some form of advance ticket which they will be able to show as a piece of cardboard or on their phone.

 

[SynthD]

The current train from Penzance to Edinburgh is about to enter Exeter. Did I alit at St Erith three hours ago or will I go to Dunbar, a further five hours away? Presumptions are fickle, if not flimsy.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The current train from Penzance to Edinburgh is about to enter Exeter. Did I alit at St Erith three hours ago or will I go to Dunbar, a further five hours away? Presumptions are fickle, if not flimsy.

My assumption (which I didn't spell out) is that long-distance trains will see multiple 'ticket' checks as they enter each local network area - just as the Liverpool-Manchester train is checked on its way through Warrington.

And, of course, it's open to any passenger to avoid having a problem by tapping in and out at their origin and destination stations.

 

[takno]

My assumption (which I didn't spell out) is that long-distance trains will see multiple 'ticket' checks as they enter each local network area - just as the Liverpool-Manchester train is checked on its way through Warrington.

And, of course, it's open to any passenger to avoid having a problem by tapping in and out at their origin and destination stations.

so, compared to the existing system it would involve endless ticket checks on long distance trains and the installation of huge numbers of card readers everywhere, and the only "benefit" would be that I could tap through a completely unaffordable full-fare single? I don't get it

 

[PeterC]

so, compared to the existing system it would involve endless ticket checks on long distance trains and the installation of huge numbers of card readers everywhere, and the only "benefit" would be that I could tap through a completely unaffordable full-fare single? I don't get it

If TfL can distinguish peak and off peak and apply fare caps why do you imagine that you could only buy peak rate singles with a national scheme?

I am not convinced that a national scheme would be worthwhile but only due to cost. Most other objections seem to be down to fear of changing process and fare structures

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Problem is though, train spotters could then tap in with their card at Plymouth, have a day bashing CrossCountry HSTs up to Leeds and back down to Exeter, and then tap out at Exeter. What are they charged? A Plymouth Exeter single.

What do checks on-board do in this case when it comes to contactless payment? They check you have actually tapped in, but not much else. They can't do much else, because you cannot input a chosen destination to the touchpad when tapping in.

 

[miklcct]

Problem is though, train spotters could then tap in with their card at Plymouth, have a day bashing CrossCountry HSTs up to Leeds and back down to Exeter, and then tap out at Exeter. What are they charged? A Plymouth Exeter single.

What do checks on-board do in this case when it comes to contactless payment? They check you have actually tapped in, but not much else. They can't do much else, because you cannot input a chosen destination to the touchpad when tapping in.

A maximum fare will be charged for each zone passed which is not on the "permitted route" defined for the journey.

For example, assume that London & South East is a zone, West Midlands is a zone, South West is a zone, Yorkshire and The Humber is a zone. By doing that, the sequence of tapping will be:
Plymouth in
South West - West Midlands boundary
West Midlands - Yorkshire and The Humber boundary
Yorkshire and The Humber - West Midlands boundary
West Midlands - South West boundary
Exeter out.

The fare charged will be a Plymouth - Exeter single, plus two West Midlands maximum fare and a Yorkshire and The Humber maximum fare.

 

[miklcct]

Another alternative will be on board validator every train, and requires people to tap as soon as they get on, similar to how trams work on the continent where one must validate the ticket as soon as getting on the tram.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Problem is though, train spotters could then tap in with their card at Plymouth, have a day bashing CrossCountry HSTs up to Leeds and back down to Exeter, and then tap out at Exeter. What are they charged? A Plymouth Exeter single.

What do checks on-board do in this case when it comes to contactless payment? They check you have actually tapped in, but not much else. They can't do much else, because you cannot input a chosen destination to the touchpad when tapping in.

No, but an RPI's machine should know where it is - either through electronic means (GPS or whatever) or because the RPI has told it. So the enormous revenue risk posed by fare-dodging trainspotters would be resolved by the taps at ticket inspection that placed them near Leeds rather than constantly between Plymouth and Exeter.

 

[Llanigraham]

UK should in my opinion have fares at a flat rate per mile.

That would sort out the efficient from the inefficient.
If that flat rate was set at fares per mile charged in the South East, then the network will soon be profitable… by passenger revenue or closures.

This is how it is in all industries, including private transportation.

how would that work when there is more than one route between stations?
I've got atleast 3 different ways to get to London from my local station.

 

[PTR 444]

Problem is though, train spotters could then tap in with their card at Plymouth, have a day bashing CrossCountry HSTs up to Leeds and back down to Exeter, and then tap out at Exeter. What are they charged? A Plymouth Exeter single.

What do checks on-board do in this case when it comes to contactless payment? They check you have actually tapped in, but not much else. They can't do much else, because you cannot input a chosen destination to the touchpad when tapping in.

No, but an RPI's machine should know where it is - either through electronic means (GPS or whatever) or because the RPI has told it. So the enormous revenue risk posed by fare-dodging trainspotters would be resolved by the taps at ticket inspection that placed them near Leeds rather than constantly between Plymouth and Exeter.

I wonder if having multiple RPI checks on the same train throughout the journey will also help? Might be an inconvenience to those who have paper tickets but at least it can establish waypoints for contactless, making it easier to calculate the correct fare for the route.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I am not convinced that a national scheme would be worthwhile but only due to cost. Most other objections seem to be down to fear of changing process and fare structures

This I think is important. A national contactless scheme is feasible. So can we move on from argument that it cannot be done because it's impossible to argument that it is possible, but whether it makes financial and practical sense to do it?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if having multiple RPI checks on the same train throughout the journey will also help? Might be an inconvenience to those who have paper tickets but at least it can establish waypoints for contactless, making it easier to calculate the correct fare for the route.

Someone could just say they were going from Plymouth to Leeds though, which explains why they’re on the train between Plymouth and Leeds having tapped on at Plymouth. You don’t physically choose a destination with Contactless or OYSTER so the RPI would just assume they would get off at Leeds and tap out. However, what some have said about the system detecting RPI scans in the Midlands on a Plymouth Exeter journey is a good point. I suppose maximum journey times help with this too somewhat, although I dislike these greatly.

Contactless payments also make it hard to change different fares by route, unless you have extremely regular on board scans as suggested.

 

[miklcct]

how would that work when there is more than one route between stations?
I've got atleast 3 different ways to get to London from my local station.

Use pink readers (either at the station or on board) to distinguish the routes.

 

[tomuk]

Contactless payments also make it hard to change different fares by route, unless you have extremely regular on board scans as suggested.

In these days of onboard Wi-Fi, onboard charging and even wireless charging would fitting a validator to each seat and requiring you to revalidate on departure from certain stations be possible?

 

[Mainline421]

Problem is though, train spotters could then tap in with their card at Plymouth, have a day bashing CrossCountry HSTs up to Leeds and back down to Exeter, and then tap out at Exeter. What are they charged? A Plymouth Exeter single.

What do checks on-board do in this case when it comes to contactless payment? They check you have actually tapped in, but not much else. They can't do much else, because you cannot input a chosen destination to the touchpad when tapping in.

Same thing that currently happens if they tap in at Exeter, go to London and back, and tap out at Axminster. My understanding is they are charged £25 for both incomplete journeys once a more than generous amount of time has passed to reach their destination, with any repeat offenders having their accounts closed. The number of people who would want to do such a thing would be so small that I don't think it would be worth depriving passengers of the benefits.

SWR, GTR, and many foreign operators operate such schemes so most of the objections raised on this thread can't be much of an issue, especially if onboard checks are stepped up. It would be nice to have one scheme on a national level rather the current fragmented system, a couple months ago I had to miss a train buying a ticket since despite having a smartcard with Tap2Go enabled GTR's KeyGo isn't interoperable.

 

[Hadders]

Autocomplete to the fare for the most popular destination. In that case possibly York. A long distance traveller should get checked on the train at that point you adjust the autocomplete fare to that to either the destination of a major intermediate point such as Birmingham.

As long as most people encounter either a gateline or a onboard check there this shouldn't be a significant issue. Of course there may need to be a bit more rigour about on board checks on some services.

This would be easily circumnavigated by using more than one card.

UK should in my opinion have fares at a flat rate per mile.

That would sort out the efficient from the inefficient.
If that flat rate was set at fares per mile charged in the South East, then the network will soon be profitable… by passenger revenue or closures.

This is how it is in all industries, including private transportation.

It's been a while since we've had this suggestion!

How much would you charge for a day return from York to Whitby, avoiding Darlington. Would the fare be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time? Also if I was to start the journey at Church Fenton, would that add to the cost?

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Peterborough to Nottingham. will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

These are just a few example of why mileage based pricing would not work. There are similar examples across the country.

Another alternative will be on board validator every train, and requires people to tap as soon as they get on, similar to how trams work on the continent where one must validate the ticket as soon as getting on the tram.

How much extra dwell time do you propose adding to calls at stations like Clapham Junction? Or Twickenham after a rugby match? Or Bath on a Saturday when the rugby and Christmas markets are on?