Could we get to the point of being required to hold a valid ticket before travelling. No excuses

[MarkyT]

So change your bank if having a physical branch is important to you...

Not especially important for me at the moment, which is why I'll probably stick with HSBC, as I have for decades since opening my first schoolboy account with Midland.

Torquay has other banks.

Either way, the issue being cited was about those who don't have a bank account - they'd have no problem opening an account in Torquay as there are other banks there.

With the sheer quantity of closures and their apparent recent acceleration, I'm not convinced physical bank branches have a long-term future at all with ANY bank, rather like ticket offices. I'm not obsessive about either matter, but there really must be realistic easy-to-use new methods made available for those who currently rely on more old-fashioned means of payment and travel authorities in public transport, and for those who may struggle to open and maintain a conventional bank account. Cards have tremendous potential and having online travel accounts that can be accessed via either a card and third party device or via a personal mobile device as well as a print-at-home option for ultimate backup security seems a good combination.

 

[Egg Centric]

The homeless/elderly aren't an issue at all; those who are bloody-minded enough to have no account atm either have "facilitators" who can help them with this or they have no intention of taking the train as a paying passenger anyway. Where do you think their benefits - and I include pensions as a benefit - are paid to?

The greatest difficulty is probably bankrupts and those with fraud convictions. While strictly speaking there's no right to train travel, I don't see how we could achieve wiping out cash as a payment method for basic services without a way for the financially untrustworthy to access traditional accounts - otherwise, we have essentially added extra-judicial punishment for fraud offences. So I think we'd have to either enshrine in law a "right" to some very basic bank account that couldn't be taken away even with literally malicious behaviour or alternatively have a "bank of last resort" for people who no commercial bank will give an account to. Not great but the least bad solution I think?

 

[Non Multi]

I see this thread, like many, many before has turned into another thread about cash payment (yawn) by the same old obsessed cranks...

It's pretty remarkable for someone at Network Rail to think that ticket vending machines and platform validators never fail, never run out of paper, never crash mid-transaction, and furthermore you should be rinsed for £100 for daring to board a train without purchase/validating. Out of touch with reality? I couldn't possibly say...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see this thread, like many, many before has turned into another thread about cash payment (yawn) by the same old obsessed cranks...

For good reason. It's the need to accept payment by cash and by rail travel voucher (why do the latter still exist?) that makes having a method of payment provided at every station too expensive. If you can have a card TVM at Kempston Hardwick (there is) you can at Dent or Crianlarich too. It's sending a bloke in a van round to empty cash TVMs, and to repair the higher number of faults due to more moving parts, and increased vandalism from people trying to break into them, that all make it infeasible.

A fully featured Scheidt & Bachmann TVM costs about twenty grand. A simplified one, taking card only and issuing barcodes on till roll, would probably cost a quarter of that and require far less maintenance.

As such, cash payment is the main obstacle to the development mentioned in the subject line.

 

[Watershed]

Supermarkets also don't have to maintain payment facilities over a vast network of highly dispersed locations

Yes they do! There are supermarkets in more parts of the country than there are stations.

most of which have very little business.

That's perhaps more true - but even then, the overwhelming majority of corner shops take cash. Indeed, some don't take card at all, or for purchases under a certain value. The point is, where there's a will there's a way.

The Supermarket chains wouldn't maintain 1000 locations (out of 2500) that cover 2% of their sales.

They wouldn't. But the railway does, and if we (as a society) think that the social service the railway provides to these locations is sufficiently important, we should avoid putting obstacles in the way of people travelling. Frankly, I don't see what's wrong with the current system; it's already one where you must have a ticket if you can buy one before boarding. I can't see the defence of 'no available facilities' ever being removed.

Indeed, allowing people to pay with cash at St Pancras or Waterloo is a very different proposition than letting them pay with cash at some minor halt with hardly any traffic at the best of times.

But people already can't buy a ticket with cash at many of these locations, instead having to buy onboard. People speak as if this is a proposal to introduce cash to the railway - it's not!

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Bit in bold - 40 years ago they wouldn't have had a clue how to use a credit card or a cashpoint, or a microwave oven or any number of other technology based items they routinely use.

Are you saying society should never discontinue things because of some refuseniks who decline to even acquaint themselves with basic technology ?

My parents, in laws, aunts and uncles are all in their mid to late 70s - to varying degrees they've all adopted and use technology - at the very least having a smart phone and using Facebook or Whatsapp to keep in touch with children and grandchildren. This whole "the older generation don't get it" is manifestly inaccurate.

Over 2/3rds of 65+ are using Smartphones now https://www.statista.com/statistics/300402/smartphone-usage-in-the-uk-by-age/ whereas 10 years ago, only 3% were. In another 10 years it will be 90%+ which is the situation for every other age group.

Technology that comes along when you’re 40 is not the same as technology that comes along when you’re 90. A microwave with six buttons is not the same to learn as a smartphone with six million. We’ll see how ‘refusenik’ you are when you hit 90.

 

[duncanp]

I thought this story, whilst not rail related, should illustrate some of the limitations of using smartphone apps for everyday transactions.

WhatsApp is going to stop working on several older devices due to a "software upgrade" and whilst many people will be able to update their software to run the newer version, not everyone will as WhatsApp admit themselves.

To update your operating system on an iPhone go to the 'general' settings and select 'software update'. If your device can not run the updated software you will need a newer phone to do so.

Great, so WhatsApp could stop working on the stroke of midnight on December 31st and you could be left with no option but to shell out several hundred pounds for a new device just to keep using it.

The same principle could apply to Apps for purchasing rail tickets, and also banking, plus any other type of online purchases.

And why are people who want to use cash to purchase a rail ticket "...old obsessed cranks..?" If you are going to stop TVMs at remote stations accepting cash, then you have to provide alternative facilities for those who wish to use cash, such as the facility to pay on the train or at your destination without penalty, or the ability to obtain a permit to travel with payment settled later.

WhatsApp set to stop working on millions of phones

People with older iPhone and Android models won't be able to use WhatsApp after December 31 without getting an upgrade.

www.dailymail.co.uk

WhatsApp set to stop working on 49 smartphones for millions of users this month during major upgrade​

• Messaging service WhatsApp to stop working on older phones
• WhatsApp will stop working on old iPhone and Android models
• Those users affected will be delivered an alert by WhatsApp

Popular messaging service WhatsApp is about to stop working on millions of phones.

People with older iPhone and Android models won't be able to use WhatsApp after December 31 without getting an upgrade.

WhatsApp will cease function on 49 makes of phone including the iPhone 5 or 5c along with several Huawei, LG and Samsung models.

However, users of those phones will be sent an alert by WhatsApp before it ceases functioning.

Devices and software change often, so we regularly review what operating systems we support and make updates,' WhatsApp said.

'These devices also might not have the latest security updates, or might lack the functionality required to run WhatsApp.'

'To choose what to stop supporting, every year we, like other technology companies, look at which devices and software are the oldest and have the fewest number of people still using them.'

To update your operating system on an iPhone go to the 'general' settings and select 'software update'.

If your device can not run the updated software you will need a newer phone to do so.

In October WhatApp stopped working on iPhones using iOS 11 and older software.

'To keep up with the latest advances in tech, we routinely stop supporting older operating systems to point our resources to supporting the latest ones,' WhatsApp said.

In November WhatsApp launched a new tool called 'Message Yourself', which, as the name suggests, lets you send yourself notes, reminders and updates.

This feature is available on Android and iPhone and lets you start a 1:1 chat with yourself within the WhatsApp app.

It helps users to keep track of their to-do lists, send themselves notes, reminders or shopping lists, according to WhatsApp.

Before that WhatsApp launched a new tool called Communities, which lets you message multiple groups at once.

The tool allows users to place several group chats together under one topic and share updates with them all.

Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Meta, WhatsApp's parent company, said: 'Today we're launching Communities on WhatsApp.

'It makes groups better by enabling sub-groups, multiple threads, announcement channels, and more.'

 

[Turtle]

I thought this story, whilst not rail related, should illustrate some of the limitations of using smartphone apps for everyday transactions.

WhatsApp is going to stop working on several older devices due to a "software upgrade" and whilst many people will be able to update their software to run the newer version, not everyone will as WhatsApp admit themselves.



Great, so WhatsApp could stop working on the stroke of midnight on December 31st and you could be left with no option but to shell out several hundred pounds for a new device just to keep using it.

The same principle could apply to Apps for purchasing rail tickets, and also banking, plus any other type of online purchases.

And why are people who want to use cash to purchase a rail ticket "...old obsessed cranks..?" If you are going to stop TVMs at remote stations accepting cash, then you have to provide alternative facilities for those who wish to use cash, such as the facility to pay on the train or at your destination without penalty, or the ability to obtain a permit to travel with payment settled later.

WhatsApp set to stop working on millions of phones

People with older iPhone and Android models won't be able to use WhatsApp after December 31 without getting an upgrade.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A very valid comment. As I've previously mentioned one cannot assume electronic devices will always function 100% as intended quite apart from events like this where an app ceases to exist for whatever reason.

 

[duncanp]

A very valid comment. As I've previously mentioned one cannot assume electronic devices will always function 100% as intended quite apart from events like this where an app ceases to exist for whatever reason.

Yes, and even if you do bite the bullet and buy a new device so that you can continue using WhatsApp after December 31st, what happens if three months later your bank decides to "upgrade" its software so that your banking App no longer works on your new device.

To say nothing of the environmental impact of having to buy a new device just because one of the Apps no longer works.

Whilst notes and coins can be withdrawn from circulation, there is usually plenty of notice given, and old coins and notes can be exchanged at a bank for new ones. I can remember 2 shilling pieces with King George VI on the reverse being used as 10p pieces after decimalisation in 1971, some 20 years after the King died.

 

[A0wen]

I thought this story, whilst not rail related, should illustrate some of the limitations of using smartphone apps for everyday transactions.

WhatsApp is going to stop working on several older devices due to a "software upgrade" and whilst many people will be able to update their software to run the newer version, not everyone will as WhatsApp admit themselves.



Great, so WhatsApp could stop working on the stroke of midnight on December 31st and you could be left with no option but to shell out several hundred pounds for a new device just to keep using it.

The same principle could apply to Apps for purchasing rail tickets, and also banking, plus any other type of online purchases.

And why are people who want to use cash to purchase a rail ticket "...old obsessed cranks..?" If you are going to stop TVMs at remote stations accepting cash, then you have to provide alternative facilities for those who wish to use cash, such as the facility to pay on the train or at your destination without penalty, or the ability to obtain a permit to travel with payment settled later.

WhatsApp set to stop working on millions of phones

People with older iPhone and Android models won't be able to use WhatsApp after December 31 without getting an upgrade.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Let's put this in context, it's not "stop" working, it's "won't be supported" - quite different.

But to keep it simple, it's the iPhone 5 or earlier not supported - which are 10 year old devices.

A newer iPhone can be picked up for less than £150 as refurbished - but how long do you expect technology to last ? Traditionally the life of things like a TV or stereo was about 10 years, so it's surely not unreasonable for a smart phone to have a similar life ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is anyone at all actually proposing mandatory smartphone ticketing? I haven't seen anyone do so.

 

[HSTEd]

Frankly, I don't see what's wrong with the current system; it's already one where you must have a ticket if you can buy one before boarding. I can't see the defence of 'no available facilities' ever being removed

It makes it possible for people to engage in fare dodging (by claiming, falsely or otherwise) to be travelling from an unstaffed station, with no consequences other than having to pay their claimed fare if they get caught.

Compulsory tickets, with validation prior to travel, at all times, on the railway would raise the penalty for getting caught from "having to buy a ticket" to "enormous fine".

 

[Watershed]

It makes it possible for people to engage in fare dodging (by claiming, falsely or otherwise) to be travelling from an unstaffed station, with no consequences other than having to pay their claimed fare if they get caught.

How many people make such false claims currently? Most fare dodgers simply aren't switched on enough to come up with such an excuse. I am not at all convinced that it's a major issue.

Compulsory tickets, with validation prior to travel, at all times, on the railway would raise the penalty for getting caught from "having to buy a ticket" to "enormous fine".

How does that work when the ticket machines or validators are broken? Or their power or internet connections are knocked out?

You will never be able to impose an "enormous fine" on the spot - most people wouldn't carry (or have immediate access to) that much money and it would cause huge aggravation and lead to an increase in assaults. It's always going to be a process dealt with in the back-office, where allegations of the unavailability of facilities can be suitably investigated.

 

[HSTEd]

How many people make such false claims currently? Most fare dodgers simply aren't switched on enough to come up with such an excuse. I am not at all convinced that it's a major issue.

Such data is, inevitably, very difficult to obtain.

How does that work when the ticket machines or validators are broken? Or their power or internet connections are knocked out?

They simply don't board the train, the station is defacto closed for those ticket classes until they are repaired.
Ticket machines can inexpensively be provided with very reliable power supplies and independent data connections.

Especially as a validator for a smartphone ticket would consist of a ePaper display that could be powered by a solar panel in the absence of a working grid power supply. And has no need for a data connection.
If we used MiFARE-style card tickets the same would be true for all tickets.

where allegations of the unavailability of facilities can be suitably investigated.

All allowing people to claim "unavailability of facilities" does is encourage vandalism of the facilities.

 

[Watershed]

They simply don't board the train, the station is defacto closed for those ticket classes until they are repaired.

Is this really a proportionate response? Excluding people from travelling because the railway has messed up?

Ticket machines can inexpensively be provided with very reliable power supplies and independent data connections.

Unfortunately what might be inexpensive for personal purposes quickly becomes expensive on the railway...

Especially as a validator for a smartphone ticket would consist of a ePaper display that could be powered by a solar panel in the absence of a working grid power supply. And has no need for a data connection.

There is no requirement to validate e-tickets at the moment; why should this be introduced?

If we used MiFARE-style card tickets the same would be true for all tickets.

And then you are once again reliant on power supplies and data connections with 100% uptime...

All allowing people to claim "unavailability of facilities" does is encourage vandalism of the facilities.

Can you point to a single case where someone has vandalised facilities for that reason?

Frankly, this all seems to be a solution looking for a problem.