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County boundary changes/renaming discussion.

D6130

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No, but the OP mentioned "Richmondshire" which is possibly the silliest former county.
mods note - split from this thread:

Richmondshire is not a former county, despite it's name....it's the name of a district. A bit like Hallamshire in South Yorkshire.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Richmondshire is not a former county, despite it's name....it's the name of a district. A bit like Hallamshire in South Yorkshire.
That was my suspicion to be honest- the only reason I assumed it might have been a "proper" county in the past was that it was mentioned in the OP!

Never mind arguing about who gets Saddleworth/Todmorden*, or whether Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire (spoiler- it isn't, they're just Weekend Geordies ;) ), I think we should ban the use of "-shire" for places that aren't counties!

*=Lancashire/Greater Manchester can keep Saddleworth, we'll keep everything East of Summit Tunnel.
 

DarloRich

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Richmondshire is not a former county, despite it's name....it's the name of a district. A bit like Hallamshire in South Yorkshire.

That was my suspicion to be honest- the only reason I assumed it might have been a "proper" county in the past was that it was mentioned in the OP!
Richmondshire isn't a county although it must cover an area bigger than many counties.

PS - I used to live in Richmondshire
 

route101

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You shouldn't get upset, but the fact is Hampshire (not the similarly named council or lieutenancy areas which also use the term county confusingly) still includes the Isle of Wight to this day in legal terms, the Office for National Statistics includes this definition as well as the others. The government has always said the councils are for administrative reasons only and that the traditional counties remain largely unchanged.

Referring to a Hampshire county council area that excludes the Isle of Wight is a reliable way to upset many in Bournemouth who have been lumped into Dorset County Council area aswell

Fire and Police Service names are no indication of county, where I live Humberside Fire and Rescue and Humberside Police are providing a good service despite the strains, it doesn't mean Grimsby is not in Lincolnshire.
Whats the deal with Southampton and Portsmouth? They appear to be in Hampshire but not with Hampshire Council.
 

DarloRich

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It is quite easy:

South of the Tees = North Yorkshire
North of the Tees = County Durham

oh and never, EVER, call someone from Sunderland a Geordie.
 

Purple Orange

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It’s easier than that. Consult a map and you’ll see the boundary of North Yorkshire is south of Guisborough, which is of course, south of Middlesbrough.
 

DarloRich

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It’s easier than that. Consult a map and you’ll see the boundary of North Yorkshire is south of Guisborough, which is of course, south of Middlesbrough.
Middlesbrough is in North Yorkshire although as you say it isn't in North Yorkshire as currently defined. It is one of a number of unitary authorities covering the former Cleveland area.
 

spyinthesky

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Some 10 years ago I did an ALR based on traditional counties and attempting to have a pint in each one that was both served from cask and brewed from said county. The only two I failed with were Rutland(Oakham brewery no longer in Rutland and failure to find a substitute) and Cornwall (Delayed sleeper caused me to cut short at Lostwhistle and drink a bottle of Doom bar on the platform)
Most counties were fairly simple but all the Ridings of Yorkshire were by far the best. Based on this alone being from Wiltshire, West Riding gets my vote.
 

Smokey Joe

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Not according to North Yorkshire County Council.
Who cares about county councils? A great many areas have no county council at all, in Yorkshire, this applies to everywhere from Doncaster to Halifax. Counties existed long before county councils were invented.
If Middlesbrough isn't in Yorkshire because it's not part of a county council, than neither is York.
 

Purple Orange

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Who cares about county councils? A great many areas have no county council at all, in Yorkshire, this applies to everywhere from Doncaster to Halifax. Counties existed long before county councils were invented.
If Middlesbrough isn't in Yorkshire because it's not part of a county council, than neither is York.

York clearly is a part of North Yorkshire, it was included as a part of the ‘county deal’ that North Yorkshire received recently, which did not include Middlesbrough. The N. Yorks deal represents the County Region deals that Cumbria and a few other counties received. Middlesbrough happens to be in the Tees city region.
 

Purple Orange

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And yet for Lord Lieutenancy purposes it's in North Yorkshire. What a mess it now all is!

What is a mess is the governance of the North East overall. The creation of City Regions and County Regions as a form of local government that can receive devolved power from Westminster is a good thing. However creating two separate bodies either side of the Tyne is just plain ridiculous. It should either be based on Tyne & Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and Teeside or just be purely the North East as one.
 

DarloRich

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Middlesbrough happens to be in the Tees city region
Or the High viz Houchen empire
What is a mess is the governance of the North East overall. The creation of City Regions and County Regions as a form of local government that can receive devolved power from Westminster is a good thing. However creating two separate bodies either side of the Tyne is just plain ridiculous. It should either be based on Tyne & Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and Teeside or just be purely the North East as one.
Agreed!
 

bussnapperwm

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To be fair the way the West Midlands is becoming a mess. You've got the WM region which includes Staffs, Shropshire, Warks, Worcs, the 7 WM Boroughs and Herefordshire.

Then you've got the Former WM County which is the 7 Boroughs.

Then you've got the WMCA which consists of the 7 Boroughs of the former WM County plus several "associate members", of which some want to become full members and thus become part of the West Midlands with use of Transport for West Midlands.
 

BrianW

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Avon calling. And does Royal Berkshire exist, except as a hospital? Middlesex RIP. As Senex says 'What a mess'. Maybe I'll be eligible sometime to play cricket for Yorkshire, if it still exists
 

johnnychips

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Who cares about county councils? A great many areas have no county council at all, in Yorkshire, this applies to everywhere from Doncaster to Halifax.
Doncaster is in the county of South Yorkshire. We would rather be associated with Sheffiield than in the West Riding which was dominated by Leeds even though its headquarters was in Wakefield and the headquarters of South Yorkshire was in Barnsley, where people eat kestrels for breakfast. Erm…
 

domcoop7

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Who cares about county councils? A great many areas have no county council at all, in Yorkshire, this applies to everywhere from Doncaster to Halifax. Counties existed long before county councils were invented.
If Middlesbrough isn't in Yorkshire because it's not part of a county council, than neither is York.
Middlesbrough is as a matter of local government law, in the County of ... wait for it ... Middlesbrough!

See:- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/1747/made

The Cleveland (Further Provision) Order 1995​

Cleveland: boundary changes
3.—(1) The county of Cleveland shall be abolished.

(2) A new county of Hartlepool shall be constituted comprising the area of the borough of Hartlepool

(3) A new county of Middlesbrough shall be constituted comprising the area of the borough of Middlesbrough.

(4) A new county of Redcar and Cleveland shall be constituted comprising the area of the borough of Redcar and Cleveland(4).

(5) A new county of Stockton-on-Tees shall be constituted comprising the area of the borough of Stockton-on-Tees.

(6) Section 2(1) of the Local Government Act 1972 (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the counties constituted by paragraphs (2) to (5) above.
As an aside, it is provisions like this which convinced me of the correctness of the "Traditional Counties" line, namely that local government counties are not - and often as is the case here bear no relation to - what people refer to as "counties". No legislation has ever sought to change the area or boundaries of what were before the 1880s called "counties".

What Wikipedia calls a "county" (and by extension the likes of the media, and other people who look things up on Wikipedia) is for its own reasons what the actual law calls "areas which are counties in England and Wales and areas in Scotland for the purposes of the lieutenancies", defined by the Lieutenancies Act 1997. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/en/ukpga/1997/23/contents The current status of that law is here:-

Lieutenancies Act 1997​

SCHEDULE 1​

Counties and areas for the purposes of the lieutenancies in Great Britain​

County for the purposes of this ActLocal government areas
Bedfordshire[F1Bedford, Central Bedfordshire] and Luton
BuckinghamshireBuckinghamshire and Milton Keynes
[F2CambridgeshireCambridgeshire and Peterborough]
[F2Cheshire[F3Cheshire East, Cheshire West and Chester, and], Halton and Warrington]
DerbyshireDerbyshire and Derby
[F2DevonDevon, Plymouth and Torbay]
Dorset[F4Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole and Dorset]
DurhamDurham, Darlington, Hartlepool and so much of Stockton-on-Tees as lies north of the line for the time being of the centre of the River Tees
The East Riding of YorkshireThe East Riding of Yorkshire and Kingston upon Hull (City of)
East SussexEast Sussex and Brighton and Hove
[F2EssexEssex, Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock]
GloucestershireGloucestershire and South Gloucestershire
HampshireHampshire, Portsmouth and Southampton
[F2KentKent and the Medway Towns]
[F2LancashireLancashire, Blackburn and Blackpool]
LeicestershireLeicestershire and Leicester
LincolnshireLincolnshire, North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire
[F5NorthamptonshireNorth Northamptonshire and West Northamptonshire]
North YorkshireNorth Yorkshire, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, York and so much of Stockton-on-Tees as lies south of the line for the time being of the centre of the River Tees
[F2NottinghamshireNottinghamshire and Nottingham]
[F2ShropshireShropshire and The Wrekin]
SomersetSomerset, Bath and North East Somerset and North Somerset.
StaffordshireStaffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent
WiltshireWiltshire and Thamesdown.
Of course if you look at the heading of the first column, it says "county for the purposes of this Act"
 

david1212

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Warwickshire ended up a strange shape when Coventry became part of the West Midlands.

Solihull were upset too being lumped in with Birmingham.

While not strictly true a past work colleague who many years earlier worked for Rover said the plant was described as ' Making gentleman's carriages in the leafy lanes of Warwickshire ' He worked on the line making the ' old shape ' P5 3.5 litre long after the P6 2000 had replaced the P4 80 & 100.


Avon ( Bristol, Bath and surrounding area ) was abolished after around 20 years. I'm unsure if the current county boarders are the same as before. Similarly Hereford and Worcester, for which the name Malvernshire was considered, was both formed and abolished around the same dates.
 
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High Dyke

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Some 10 years ago I did an ALR based on traditional counties and attempting to have a pint in each one that was both served from cask and brewed from said county. The only two I failed with were Rutland(Oakham brewery no longer in Rutland and failure to find a substitute) and Cornwall (Delayed sleeper caused me to cut short at Lostwhistle and drink a bottle of Doom bar on the platform)
Most counties were fairly simple but all the Ridings of Yorkshire were by far the best. Based on this alone being from Wiltshire, West Riding gets my vote.
No worries about Rutland now. The Grainstore brewery is adjacent to Oakham Station.
 

317 forever

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Warwickshire ended up a strange shape when Coventry became part of the West Midlands.

Solihull were upset too being lumped in with Birmingham.

While not strictly true a past work colleague who many years earlier worked for Rover said the plant was described as ' Making gentleman's carriages in the leafy lanes of Warwickshire ' He worked on the line making the ' old shape ' P5 3.5 litre long after the P6 2000 had replaced the P4 80 & 100.


Avon ( Bristol, Bath and surrounding area ) was abolished after around 20 years. I'm unsure if the current county boarders are the same as before. Similarly Hereford and Worcester, for which the name Malvernshire was considered, was both formed and abolished around the same dates.
Solihull does have its own Authority. It's Sutton Coldfield that did not want to merge with Birmingham.
 

david1212

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Solihull does have its own Authority. It's Sutton Coldfield that did not want to merge with Birmingham.

True but for Solihull the postal address changed from Solihull, Warwickshire to Solihull, West Midlands which some were unhappy about, one possibility at the time may have been an effect on desirability and property values.

I don't doubt Royal Sutton Coldfield would rather have remained in Warwickshire too.
 

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