Crew Change waiting times

[BenW390Fan]

With freight and passenger services needing crew changes at some point or another, how long does the crew actually need to wait at the change location? I.e. is it 20 minutes before the service is scheduled to arrive or 10 minutes?

For a SimSig Carlisle timetable I'm creating - 2nd March 2020

 

[voyagerdude220]

Wouldn't it depend on what time the train is due to arrive at the point where the new crew are taking it over?

 

[BenW390Fan]

Wouldn't it depend on what time the train is due to arrive at the point where the new crew are taking it over?

In this case, the train is due to arrive the changing location - Carlisle P4 - at 09:14

 

[the sniper]

In the passenger TOC I know best you just need to be there at the minute it departs. There's no obligation to meet a train on arrival. It'll come down to what's on the train crew diagram. If a train arrives at 1620, but the forward train crew's PNB ends at 1619, plus there's 5 minutes official walking time given from the PNB point to the platforms, the train crew should arrive at the train at 1624. Theoretically that train could be timetabled to depart at 1624. Diagrams aren't normally that tight, but it isn't unknown.

No doubt this could vary wildly between TOCs.

 

[O L Leigh]

Depends on the driver’s diagram. Sometimes it shows that you should relieve the driver on arrival and sometimes not, perhaps due to the time required for a PNB or some other timing consideration.

There’s one diagram at my depot where you’re booked to relieve a driver from another depot 2 minutes before departure. The train itself is booked to arrive 10 minutes or so before and reverse, so it’s on the other driver’s diagram to set up the departing cab and wait with the train for relief. Sometimes this actually happens, but more often than not the other driver gets the hump, keys out and Foxtrot Oscar’s to the messroom leaving all the paperwork in the wrong cab. Obviously this often results in a late departure because the relieving driver doesn’t know he’s done it, goes to the front cab first to find it empty, then to the rear cab to collect the paperwork before trudging back up to the front again to set the cab up from scratch.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As Traincrew we have specific relieve times on our diagrams. This is usually the time the service arrives at the relieving point (in the case of TPE that can be Newcastle, York, Leeds, Manchester oxford road or Victoria (not Piccadilly P13/14 due to capacity restraints-terminal platforms only) Preston, Carlisle, sheffield or Doncaster. The reason Manchester Piccadilly is not officially a relieving point is due to the lack of capacity on the branch (as platforms 13/14 is known) should a relieving traincrew not show up it can potentially stop the job, reliving at Occy road instead still gives the possibility of rerouting trains) other stations are sometimes used due to disruption but these are unofficial and usually to give the crew member a “flyer”

At handover, issues with the service or the unit are discussed such as train faults, locations of ticket checks and progress, on board assist requirements or punter issues, catering or revenue protection provision. Banterous insults are also usually traded at this point

 

[clagmonster]

Are there not a few Cleethorpes trains reversing in the main shed with a crew change at Piccadilly still? Also, is anything of TPE actually booked a crew change at Doncaster? Most tend to work through Cleethorpes - Sheffield.

 

[BenW390Fan]

Thanks for all your replies, it's definitely helped me - I forgot to mention that it's a freight train, would that make any difference?

 

[_toommm_]

Are there not a few Cleethorpes trains reversing in the main shed with a crew change at Piccadilly still? Also, is anything of TPE actually booked a crew change at Doncaster? Most tend to work through Cleethorpes - Sheffield.

Catering sometimes disembarks at Piccadilly Platforms 9 and 10 when going to the Airport, and I’m tempted to say most crew changes on that route happen at Sheffield, or the Airport.

It’s not as bad for the Cleethorpes service as they pretty much exclusively use 9 and 10 so there’s no danger of them blocking much, it’s just the fear of something going wrong on 13 and 14.

 

[clagmonster]

I am aware that under WTT there are a few Cleethorpes guards booked PNB at Picc, however I haven't a clue what is happening on the current timetable, as for understandable reasons I haven't spoken to any of them recently. I think they all have at least a driver change at Sheffield, although there was talk at one stage of Cleethorpes drivers learning Manchester.

Not having crew changes for relief to not turn up is good common sense on 13/14.

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks for all your replies, it's definitely helped me - I forgot to mention that it's a freight train, would that make any difference?

The crucial difference with a freight train booked for crew relief in a station is that the signalman will probably hold it back somewhere suitable until the relieving driver confirms that he's ready and waiting, because there's potential for absolute chaos if it trundles into the platform, there's no relief and the inward driver either doesn't sign the route any further or is already across the footbridge and away! Whether this happens, and where that 'suitable location' is (and thus how far in advance the signalman needs to be advised) will presumably vary by location. At Nottingham, for example, Down freight trains are generally kept well out of the way on the Down Slow before Mansfield Junction - it's only three or four minutes into the station. There's nowhere really to put Up freights unless they're short enough to fit in a platform, but they'll be held at the last signal before the station so that at least if the worst happens (as it occasionally does) at least it's not fouling all the connections at the east end of the station even if it means that anything behind it is stuffed.

 

[Scottychoo]

Wouldn't it depend on what time the train is due to arrive at the point where the new crew are taking it over?

Err No, he asked how long before, not what time!

 

[voyagerdude220]

Err No, he asked how long before, not what time!

Err yes.. My point being if the train is booked to stand for 20 minutes, I'm guessing the relieving driver would be on the platform 20 minutes before departure, whereas if it's only stopping for a minute or two, there's no need for them to turn up early.

 

[2L70]

Are there not a few Cleethorpes trains reversing in the main shed with a crew change at Piccadilly still? Also, is anything of TPE actually booked a crew change at Doncaster? Most tend to work through Cleethorpes - Sheffield.

For South Crew relieving points are Man Picc and Sheffield. Currently 3 on the diagrams I’ve got, they’ve gone back to breaks at Sheffield for the most part.

 

[Mojo]

Err yes.. My point being if the train is booked to stand for 20 minutes, I'm guessing the relieving driver would be on the platform 20 minutes before departure, whereas if it's only stopping for a minute or two, there's no need for them to turn up early.

It depends on the schedule. If the train is booked to stand for a period of time at a location, the crew relief might be at the arrival time, around the departure time, or any time in between.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yes, for clarity crew changes do occur at Cleethorpes, Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester Piccadilly (P1-12) and Manchester Airport, I didn’t include these as I was referring to crew changes en route as per the OP whereas these are terminal stations. Hence why I specifically referred to the branch at man Picc. Edited for clarity. Not being south route TPE I wasn’t sure if Doncaster was actually a booked crew relief point, however where TPE services have been diverted via the South Route then onto the ECML to York, Doncaster was definitely used as Manchester, Sheffield and Cleethorpes crews handed over to York and Newcastle crews there. There may well see more of this once the TPE upgrade works finally start

 

[Andy Pacer]

With freight and passenger services needing crew changes at some point or another, how long does the crew actually need to wait at the change location? I.e. is it 20 minutes before the service is scheduled to arrive or 10 minutes?

For a SimSig Carlisle timetable I'm creating - 2nd March 2020

Looking forward to an up to date Carlisle timetable, I'm currently working on a Derby one.

 

[BenW390Fan]

Looking forward to an up to date Carlisle timetable, I'm currently working on a Derby one.

Thanks, been a while since I played on the Derby sim so looking forward to that. It's a shame though because for some reason the timetable didn't save so now I've got to redo about 15 services