Crewe - Warrington Bank Quay/Wigan/Preston

[Alex1971]

First off, hope I am posting this in the correct forum. I have often wondered why there is not say a Northern Service between Crewe - Preston, or even just to Warrington Bank Quay or Wigan North Western. The reason I have always wondered why there isn’t is because is you live near and use Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winford stations and want head north, nothing ever stops at these stations. To get to Warrington Bank Quay from Acton Bridge (distance 7m) you would have to catch a train down to Crewe to come back north to Warrington, same for Hartford & Winford. Now I guess it all comes down to cost etc, and you can get to Liverpool from the 3 mentioned stations, and with Hartford you are not far from Northwich Greenbank to get to Manchester, buts surely a local stopping service from Crewe to either Warrington/Wigan/Preston would connect mid-Cheshire with the WCML?

 

[30907]

Back in the 70s, when InterCity trains were far less frequent and the Crewe-Liverpool service was about hourly, there were occasional stopping trains on the WCML north from Crewe which IIRC served Hartford.
IIRC there were proposals for a Birmingham-Preston local about 20 years ago which turned into the second Birmingham-Liverpool.
A Crewe-Warrington stopper (no point going further north as Avanti run 2tph) would have to make all its money on traffic from the 3 stations you mention to Warrington and beyond, and frankly I doubt there's anything like enough demand.

 

[47827]

It's an historical hangover from many years ago. There used to be something between Crewe and Preston utilising class 304 emu's I recall hearing which also ran via Newton le Willows due to that being electrified long before Chat Moss and via Rainhill (also for WCML diversions). The exact reason BR chopped it was probably related to poor loadings.

For a number of years in the earlier years of the XC franchise under Virgin Warrington regained 1 direct train per day to Hartford with the 07xx Blackpool to Portsmouth. A strange return trip in itself with 158s, hsts, loco hauled and latterly voyagers all getting involved for various spells. I'd say that the service wasn't aimed at providing Hartford a link from Warrington but moreso to scoop up a little more of the ticket revenue from the station's overall use (and indeed be one of a few trains XC used to serve it).

 

[D6130]

The reason I have always wondered why there isn’t is because is you live near and use Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winford stations and want head north, nothing ever stops at these stations.

Maybe it's to prevent unit bashers from congregating at Acton Bridge and annoying the residents of the station house while waiting for their train!

 

[edwin_m]

It's a very busy section of line and the critical part between Weaver Junction and Warrington only has two tracks.

 

[47827]

An interesting picture of former stock from these services reaching Preston as late as 1990. Seemingly a Crewe to Carlisle relief though due to bad weather. Would have been a very bouncy ride over the fells.

Class 304 304028 - Preston.

With the station clock at 22.37, a three-car Class 304 EMU, 304028 was stood in Platform 3 at Preston with a Crewe to Carlisle relief service on January 25th 1990. The North West side of the UK was being affected by 'The Burns Night Storm', which brought high winds, causing severe disruption to...

www.flickr.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

First North Western wanted to do a Crewe-Carlisle stopping service using Class 309s, but weren't allowed to as they were slamdoor without central door locking. They didn't have anything else suitable available so the idea sadly died.

 

[MarkWi72]

Maybe it's to prevent unit bashers from congregating at Acton Bridge and annoying the residents of the station house while waiting for their train!

I'm off there tomorrow - will I get shouted at? I'd better head for the footbridge

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a very busy section of line and the critical part between Weaver Junction and Warrington only has two tracks.

Dr Beeching culled the local stations between Crewe and Carlisle, leaving Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge with just a Liverpool service.
"The railway" is not at all keen to reinstate local services or stations on the route - eg at Golborne or Coppull - because of the impact on capacity.
Dog-legging via Earlestown and Newton le Willows is also problematic because of the WCML crossing moves at Winwick and Golborne - and it's very slow.
I seem to remember there were early franchise plans to run a Crewe-Carlisle stopper, but because it would have used slam-door stock it was not allowed by ORR, as key parts of the route had become free of slam-door (and dump-toilet) stock using Pendolinos and Voyagers, and you can't "degrade" a service.
But today there would not be any problem running 319s on the route, except that capacity is now even more limited.
In some ways, extending the Liverpool-Wigan service to Blackpool was one way of plugging a gap on the route (and enabled the station at Balshaw Lane to reopen).
Increased TPE frequency also helps, but none of this is between Crewe and Warrington/Wigan which remains a VT monopoly.
HS2, when it comes, will cause a rethink of the classic line services north of Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In some ways, extending the Liverpool-Wigan service to Blackpool was one way of plugging a gap on the route (and enabled the station at Balshaw Lane to reopen).

There was an hourly Liverpool-Preston via Wigan for a lot longer than Balshaw Lane has existed, FWIW.

 

[splashoutradio]

Don't know if it's for historical reasons also, but the fares for many flows between Preston, Wigan, Warrington and Crewe (including Acton Bridge and Hartford) are set by Northern, even though Northern don't connect most of these stations.

 

[S&CLER]

Dr Beeching culled the local stations between Crewe and Carlisle, leaving Winsford/Hartford/Acton Bridge with just a Liverpool service.
"The railway" is not at all keen to reinstate local services or stations on the route - eg at Golborne or Coppull - because of the impact on capacity.
Dog-legging via Earlestown and Newton le Willows is also problematic because of the WCML crossing moves at Winwick and Golborne - and it's very slow.
I seem to remember there were early franchise plans to run a Crewe-Carlisle stopper, but because it would have used slam-door stock it was not allowed by ORR, as key parts of the route had become free of slam-door (and dump-toilet) stock using Pendolinos and Voyagers, and you can't "degrade" a service.
But today there would not be any problem running 319s on the route, except that capacity is now even more limited.
In some ways, extending the Liverpool-Wigan service to Blackpool was one way of plugging a gap on the route (and enabled the station at Balshaw Lane to reopen).
Increased TPE frequency also helps, but none of this is between Crewe and Warrington/Wigan which remains a VT monopoly.
HS2, when it comes, will cause a rethink of the classic line services north of Crewe.

Reopening Coppull depends entirely on creating more capacity by reinstating the slow lines from Standish to Balshaw Lane Jn, a desirable scheme in itself. As the service to Coppull could be provided by inserting an extra stop in Liverpool-Blackpool, it looks less problematic than Golborne, which would require an additional Wigan-Chat Moss-Manchester service, or an extra stop for semi-fast trains from Barrow/Windermere (assuming that they continue to run via Parkside east curve, which is not necessarily a given).

 

[CW2]

During the West Coast Route Modernisation a passenger count took place at Winsford, Hartford, and Acton Bridge. I recall that for Acton Bridge the daily passenger count barely made it into double figures. There's no evidence of any large demand having grown since then (that I know of). Stopping on the 2-track section is costly in capacity terms, but would benefit next to nobody.

 

[Gathursty]

I wonder if Acton Bridge could have a terminating Mid Cheshire line service instead of Greenbank but then again there'd be no point as Acton is fairly close to Hartford, Greenbank and possibly Cuddington.

 

[peteb]

An interesting picture of former stock from these services reaching Preston as late as 1990. Seemingly a Crewe to Carlisle relief though due to bad weather. Would have been a very bouncy ride over the fells.

Class 304 304028 - Preston.

With the station clock at 22.37, a three-car Class 304 EMU, 304028 was stood in Platform 3 at Preston with a Crewe to Carlisle relief service on January 25th 1990. The North West side of the UK was being affected by 'The Burns Night Storm', which brought high winds, causing severe disruption to...

www.flickr.com

I used to love these units with their "proper" compartments for first class with corridor to the toilet. But not every carriage had toilet access (?) so must have been a bit of an ordeal up to Carlisle. Think I did one of these from Wolverhampton to Liverpool c 1982 but what service, (must have stopped at Hartford), I don't recall.

 

[MarkWi72]

You used to get 304s on the New Street/Stafford to Manchester Piccadilly Services in the 80s.

 

[jfollows]

I have been upgrading my collection of working timetables, so for a number of years from 1973 to 1981 (with the exception of the 1977-1978 timetable which I don't have) the SX service from Hartford to Warrington and beyond was the following, and only in 1980 did it get even vaguely interesting.
None of the (few) services went via Newton-le-Willows.
Clearly there wasn't much demand but the service on offer wasn't going to generate demand either.
Hartford had a few other calls in fast Liverpool services, but not many.
Summer Saturdays saw a couple of additional DMU services to Blackpool North.

7/5/73 to 5/5/74 SX
1P16 09:28 Crewe-Carlisle D280 called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Wester, Preston & onwards
1K17 18:03 Carlisle-Crewe D280 called at ..., Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 20:46

6/5/74 to 4/5/75 SX (first year of electrification)
2P82 09:17 Crewe-Preston/Carnforth EMU called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western & Preston, arrived 10:10, 1/7 to 27/9 departed unadvertised 10:28 to Carnforth arrive 10:51
2K82 15:00 Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 15:54

5/5/75 to 2/5/76 SX
1P82 09:17 EMU Crewe-Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay & Wigan North Western, arrived Preston 10:10
1K82 15:00 Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, arrived Crewe 15:54
(1K82 didn't call at Hartford)

3/5/76 to 1/5/77 SX
2P66 09:17 EMU Crewe-Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay & Wigan North Western, arrived Preston 10:13
2K66 14:57 EMU Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 15:53

2/5/77 to 7/5/78 SX
I don't have this timetable, so I don't know

8/5/78 to 13/5/79 SX
no services

14/5/79 to 11/5/80 SX
no services

12/5/80 to 10/5/81 SX
1P16 06:28 Birmingham-Lancaster E280 called at Crewe 07:35, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western & Preston, arrived Lancaster 08:47 (stock formed 2P92 09:20 Lancaster-Barrow-in-Furness D280, LD from Preston after working 1S45 07:53 Manchester Victoria-Glasgow Central as far as Preston)
1P63 16:05 Crewe to Barrow-in-Furness E280 to Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston 16:55-17:05, Lancaster, Carnforth & onwards
1K34 12:50 Preston-Crewe E280 called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 13:41
1K32 14:10 Barrow-in-Furness-Crewe E280 from Preston called at stops to Carnforth, Lancaster, Preston 15:37-15:50, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 16:40

EDIT I have a feeling that I might have travelled on 1K34 or 1K32 once, because I remember calling at Hartford on something which wasn't the stopping Liverpool-Crewe EMU service (and I only used that the once), and I remember having a nice AC-hauled journey from Preston to Crewe one afternoon, maybe in the summer before going to university? The dates would work.

 

[Taunton]

Curiously the day Plymouth (and Taunton!) train to Hereford, Crewe and Liverpool, which our family used regularly from 1962, used to call at Hartford. It seemed to be a point of honour for the electric loco which had come on at Crewe to hit 100mph by Winsford, then brakes on. Hartford is effectively suburban Northwich, which was then the centre of the Cheshire chemical industry.

There was only one train a day which did the intermediate stops between Crewe and Wigan. After electrification it was an emu, which left Crewe after breakfast, spent a few hours turning round at Preston, and was back into Crewe for tea time. It's been discussed here before; apparently it was the turn for the Crewe driver nearest retirement. Seems to have been the only electric service to have gone round the expensively electrified dogleg by Newton-le-Willows. There were always overlapping diesel services here, the Chester to Manchester Victoria and the Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh trains went through Newton, so no legal issues when it was withdrawn.

 

[jfollows]

Seems to have been the only electric service to have gone round the expensively electrified dogleg by Newton-le-Willows.

Sorry, but it didn't, and I said the same on the other thread when it was brought up a couple of weeks ago - I don't have a time machine but I do have the working timetables as per my post #17 above!

Also, see 6 Jun 2021 et seq. for timetable extracts etc.

EDIT But of course on any particular day it could have gone that way on the whim of someone in Warrington PSB. Or it was booked to do this route in the 2/5/77 to 7/5/78 timetable, which I don't have.

But in the first year of the EMU operation, the driver had a summer trip out to Carnforth as well in it.

 

[CJ]

Wasn't there a once-a-day Central Trains/London Midland service Birmingham - Preston using Class 350 in the mid/late 2000s?

 

[jfollows]

Wasn't there a once-a-day Central Trains/London Midland service Birmingham - Preston using Class 350 in the mid/late 2000s?

I remember getting it as far as Crewe once, so I don't recall if it called at Hartford or not!

 

[Taunton]

Sorry, but it didn't, and I said the same on the other thread when it was brought up a couple of weeks ago

In that case the working timetable was out of sync with the 1974 public timetable, which showed the time at Newton-le-Willows in Table 65, but needing a footnote as it didn't appear in the station bank.

 

[peteb]

You used to get 304s on the New Street/Stafford to Manchester Piccadilly Services in the 80s.

Hmmm, maybe I went to Manchester but I could have sworn I was on a 304 over Runcorn Bridge......

 

[jfollows]

Hmmm, maybe I went to Manchester but I could have sworn I was on a 304 over Runcorn Bridge......

Crewe-Liverpool stopping service was AM4
EDIT They also substituted for Liverpool-Birmingham and onwards express trains on summer Saturdays, maybe it was one of these? For example, 09:20 Liverpool-Penzance was EMU to Birmingham only summer Saturdays because the stock ran as 08:45 Liverpool-Penzance and avoided Birmingham by going through Walsall on summer Saturdays, so EMU picked up the normal schedule as far as Birmingham.
I was more familiar with the Manchester-Birmingham services, but the same applied here also. With luck you might get an AM10, but I'm not sure if Liverpool signed these whereas I know Manchester did.

In that case the working timetable was out of sync with the 1974 public timetable, which showed the time at Newton-le-Willows in Table 65, but needing a footnote as it didn't appear in the station bank.

For sure, the working timetable could have been amended, but it'd be nice to see the public timetable page anyway.
I'd like to see the passenger timings for the stops and compare to "my" WTT.
Whatever, it was a strange service whether or not it went that way.

 

[47827]

I used to love these units with their "proper" compartments for first class with corridor to the toilet. But not every carriage had toilet access (?) so must have been a bit of an ordeal up to Carlisle. Think I did one of these from Wolverhampton to Liverpool c 1982 but what service, (must have stopped at Hartford), I don't recall.

Think it was the carriage that used to have first class that had the toilet. Was usually the preferred part of the set to sit I think. The guard and other 2 carriages had to stay in their own vehicle though is these things were non gangwayed like the DC 504s around Manchester. 304s always my favourite EMU as a child and I even managed some of the last runs they did ex Liverpool off Mossley Hill on the early turn that used to be ECS from Soho. Would have been covering for a 310/312 although 323s were increasingly turning up in the mid 90s before the Stansted extensions and use of DMUs which led to the service turning unreliable.

304s were always a bouncy ride so flying down Shap would have been fun.

Hadn't been aware how many Crewe to Preston locals there were and had heard Newton le Willows mentioned on the stops but perhaps that was actually before electrication in the era before the end of steam?

 

[jfollows]

The guard and other 2 carriages

The guard and other 3 carriages during the time they had first class carriages, surely?
They removed the first class carriages, and in 001-015 they removed the non-corridor compartment carriages (I think I've remembered the number range correctly) to end up with 3-car sets at the end of their lives.

EDIT A good friend was a guard so I often rode with him, and sometimes on ECS workings with the driver. But I used them every school day between September 1970 and March 1980, and fortunately don't every remember having any necessity to use the toilet!

 

[47827]

The guard and other 3 carriages during the time they had first class carriages, surely?
They removed the first class carriages, and in 001-015 they removed the non-corridor compartment carriages (I think I've remembered the number range correctly) to end up with 3-car sets at the end of their lives.

EDIT A good friend was a guard so I often rode with him, and sometimes on ECS workings with the driver. But I used them every school day between September 1970 and March 1980, and fortunately don't every remember having any necessity to use the toilet!

Sorry, I don't recall them in their days with a 4th carriage and had thought the small area the other side of the toilet may have been previously first class from what the other enthusiasts used to claim. I remember them from about the mid 80s onwards so only have memories of the last decade. Mostly on Liverpool to Crewe locals, but a good few runs around Greater Manchester in the early to mid 90s too.

One last memory was when there were weeks of mostly Edge Hill based IC liveried mk1s being put out daily from dawn til close of day with class 31s covering all the stopping services vice 304s due to safety issues with the doors. For the final couple of years the remainder of the surviving fleet then had fluorescent stripes added to each door so that when it was open on the catch at departure time still the guards and platform staff would notice in time.

Ironically, back on the topic (almost), I've been on at least several charter trains that served local stations between Crewe and Warrington and sometimes north of there. An odd one also Newton le Willows plus the likes of Euxton Balshaw Lane and/or Leyland. Unless there were any part fares between the above places or rescued service train users (both of which were possible) then it won't quite count.

 

[Dave W]

Wasn't there a once-a-day Central Trains/London Midland service Birmingham - Preston using Class 350 in the mid/late 2000s?

Yes but if I remember rightly this just went in the path of a Voyager and only called at the stations that did (with Stafford additionally, maybe...?)

In those days the Voyager left New St just before the hour (perhaps :55?) and was booked to leave Wolves at :21. The Central service left earlier at 1710.

Whether a Voyager also ran (there were a handful of trains that didn’t stop at Wolves) I’m not sure.

This was also before any longer distance stuff stopped at Smethwick GB - in fact I’m almost certain the only intermediate stop for any train other than the 323s between Brum and Wolves were the 350s stopping at Coseley.

But perhaps my mind fails me - I think this was all swept away with the timetable changes in 2008.

 

[Alex1971]

Wow, thanks for all the comments and history regarding services and past timetables that stopped in mid-Cheshire. I started the post out of curiosity and also for selfish reasons, the curiosity is that I am a Crewe born lad whose family originate from mid-Cheshire, I can remember my Dad telling me about when he grew up in Winsford in the 40’s & 50’s how busy Winsford station once was and how he regularly visited relatives in Fleetwood, so I presume he must of at least been able to get to Preston. The selfishness is that I now live in Warrington but will be soon moving to Northwich, I will still be able to get to Crewe, Liverpool, Manchester & even Birmingham from Hartford, but I just wish there was something in the pipeline for a local stopper so it would make it easier to get up to the Lakes or Scotland instead of having to go back on myself via Crewe, or go around the houses via Manchester. If only there were a few hundred more like me then something might happen one day!

 

[BeijingDave]

As a town of 200,000, I'm sure Warrington would be much better served by local services were it not for Liverpool and Manchester being so close (as more obvious termini), if that makes sense.