Cross Country HST withdrawals?

[Mikey C]

Which has got absolutely nothing to do with the railways, the NHS etc.
Yes, support during the pandemic added to the debt. But the underlying problem is that politicians keep going on about reducing taxes instead of actually increasing tax income. The debt will never reduce unless government increases income.

Good lines of communication (transport) definitely do help the economy. The railway network is part of this. Hence, it makes sense to encourage people to use it, as that helps the economy. But people will not be encouraged to use it if it becomes a basket case.

All any future tax reductions will do is just slightly reduce some of the increases that have been levied in recent years

 

[JonathanH]

All any future tax reductions will do is just slightly reduce some of the increases that have been levied in recent years

Yes, and at the same time, make this country's debt burden worse. Make no mistake, taxes need to increase considerably before there will be more money for CrossCountry, and the HSTs will be long gone.

 

[bramling]

Which has got absolutely nothing to do with the railways, the NHS etc.
Yes, support during the pandemic added to the debt. But the underlying problem is that politicians keep going on about reducing taxes instead of actually increasing tax income.

I don’t think anyone can reasonably say this government has reduced taxes, apart from of course Truss’s short-lived special economic operation. Indeed “middle England” is being pretty highly taxed at the moment. Given that people are already making a thing about the cost of living, it’s hard to see how taxes on this segment of the population could be increased much, either politically or practically.

The fact remains that, quite simply, the government over-spent during Covid, and there’s also other structural problems such as the amount of debt that has built up with 15 years of artificially low interest rates. And also a fair amount of money still directed at a segment of the population who are net takers.

Good lines of communication (transport) definitely do help the economy. The railway network is part of this. Hence, it makes sense to encourage people to use it, as that helps the economy. But people will not be encouraged to use it if it becomes a basket case.

Agreed here. Transport is pretty essential, and rail should be part of that.

 

[Richard Scott]

Which has got absolutely nothing to do with the railways, the NHS etc.
Yes, support during the pandemic added to the debt. But the underlying problem is that politicians keep going on about reducing taxes instead of actually increasing tax income. The debt will never reduce unless government increases income.

Good lines of communication (transport) definitely do help the economy. The railway network is part of this. Hence, it makes sense to encourage people to use it, as that helps the economy. But people will not be encouraged to use it if it becomes a basket case.

Yes it has, they all have to be funded and if there's limited funds then that's that.
Our transport system is far from a basket case. In reality it's pretty good. Travel around Europe without rose tinted specs and you'll find our system stacks up very well indeed. Ok, it could be better still but so could lots of things and it sll takes money, which brings us back to original point.
It's unfortunate the HSTs won't be retained as I'd much rather ride on one than a Voyager. As far as I'm concerned they're getting rid of the wrong train but within Cross Country they are a microfleet and an easy target for any cost savings.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yes it has, they all have to be funded and if there's limited funds then that's that.
Our transport system is far from a basket case. In reality it's pretty good. Travel around Europe without rose tinted specs and you'll find our system stacks up very well indeed. Ok, it could be better still but so could lots of things and it sll takes money, which brings us back to original point.
It's unfortunate the HSTs won't be retained as I'd much rather ride on one than a Voyager. As far as I'm concerned they're getting rid of the wrong train but within Cross Country they are a microfleet and an easy target for any cost savings.

Yes, sadly time to say goodbye. I’ve been travelling on them for forty years now and will miss them. As for them being a better train than the voyagers, I’ve learned over the past few years that it doesn’t really matter what is hauling you around as long as you can have a seat AND it’s comfortable. You can have the best tech like the 800s but if they have uncomfortable seats (which they do) then it tarnishes your view of the whole train.

If you looked at the HST back in 1980 compared to its interior today, you wouldn’t think it was so great. Lighting and seating were inferior and everything in coach B was nicotine yellow

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, sadly time to say goodbye. I’ve been travelling on them for forty years now and will miss them. As for them being a better train than the voyagers, I’ve learned over the past few years that it doesn’t really matter what is hauling you around as long as you can have a seat AND it’s comfortable. You can have the best tech like the 800s but if they have uncomfortable seats (which they do) then it tarnishes your view of the whole train.

If you looked at the HST back in 1980 compared to its interior today, you wouldn’t think it was so great. Lighting and seating were inferior and everything in coach B was nicotine yellow

The original 1st class seats were amongst the most comfortable I've travelled on.

It may not matter what is hauling you "as long as you have a seat", but withdrawing major parts of the fleet without replacement will ensure that many more passengers won't have a seat. That is why this is no time to say goodbye.

 

[GoneSouth]

The original 1st class seats were amongst the most comfortable I've travelled on.

It may not matter what is hauling you "as long as you have a seat", but withdrawing major parts of the fleet without replacement will ensure that many more passengers won't have a seat. That is why this is no time to say goodbye.

Couldn’t agree more, there should definitely be Voyagers from Avanti added to the fleet to replace them.

As for the first class seats being the best, I could never afford one so can’t comment. I seem to remember first class being an Orange/brown and standard (second as it was called then) was all blue. Happy times travelling up and down the country on them.

Obviously I’d rather they were retained but if it satisfies the cuts that Have been imposed on them then there could have been worse outcomes (and probably will be in the next round of cuts )

 

[yorksrob]

Couldn’t agree more, there should definitely be Voyagers from Avanti added to the fleet to replace them.

As for the first class seats being the best, I could never afford one so can’t comment. I seem to remember first class being an Orange/brown and standard (second as it was called then) was all blue. Happy times travelling up and down the country on them.

Obviously I’d rather they were retained but if it satisfies the cuts that Have been imposed on them then there could have been worse outcomes (and probably will be in the next round of cuts )

Maybe, but the Voyagers need to be forthcoming from Avanti first.

As for first class, there were some very decent offers on the Midland main line up until a couple of years ago

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes, sadly time to say goodbye. I’ve been travelling on them for forty years now and will miss them. As for them being a better train than the voyagers, I’ve learned over the past few years that it doesn’t really matter what is hauling you around as long as you can have a seat AND it’s comfortable. You can have the best tech like the 800s but if they have uncomfortable seats (which they do) then it tarnishes your view of the whole train.

If you looked at the HST back in 1980 compared to its interior today, you wouldn’t think it was so great. Lighting and seating were inferior and everything in coach B was nicotine yellow

Oh I do remember those days and, yes, a good refurbishment can make an old train much improved. I'd still say a Mk3 is a much better coach than a Voyager due to general ambience; lack of noise and vibration being two important factors.

 

[class397tpe]

Oh I do remember those days and, yes, a good refurbishment can make an old train much improved. I'd still say a Mk3 is a much better coach than a Voyager due to general ambience; lack of noise and vibration being two important factors.

Also just the feeling of space inside the coach - voyagers are a lot more claustrophobic due to the tilt profile.

 

[GoneSouth]

Oh I do remember those days and, yes, a good refurbishment can make an old train much improved. I'd still say a Mk3 is a much better coach than a Voyager due to general ambience; lack of noise and vibration being two important factors.

Yes the engine under your seat feeling isn’t ideal but it looks like we’re stuck with that design until we can be bothered to electrify more. I do like a quiet ride but sadly stuck with diesel on XC for decades to come.

 

[-Colly405-]

I do prefer the HST but I also think it is mainly just an enthusiast thing...
Did a trip down to Devon recently with my wife. Voyager one way, HST the other. I asked her which she preferred and she hadn't even noticed they were different!

 

[yorksrob]

I do prefer the HST but I also think it is mainly just an enthusiast thing...
Did a trip down to Devon recently with my wife. Voyager one way, HST the other. I asked her which she preferred and she hadn't even noticed they were different!

It's about the capacity.

Will there be a 4 carriage 158 to replace it, or just a two ?

That's the crucial factor that the Establishment don't want us to understand.

 

[bramling]

Are they though ? Apart from the lettuce brigade and the Taxpayers alliance, the majority of the population seem to comprehend that the current tax burden is a necessity borne of our current circumstances.

I wouldn’t say it’s a necessity. It’s a consequence of policy choices, and one that much of the population didn’t seem to anticipate when they were busy flocking en-masse to the beach every day.

We didn’t have to be in this position.

I do prefer the HST but I also think it is mainly just an enthusiast thing...
Did a trip down to Devon recently with my wife. Voyager one way, HST the other. I asked her which she preferred and she hadn't even noticed they were different!

Enthusiasts like the HST as a train, however “normals” appreciate the extra capacity they provide. They would certainly notice the difference between a full-length HST turning up compared to a 4-car Voyager, especially as the latter doesn’t make good use of what little space it does have.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn’t say it’s a necessity. It’s a consequence of policy choices, and one that much of the population didn’t seem to anticipate when they were busy flocking en-masse to the beach every day.

We didn’t have to be in this position.



Enthusiasts like the HST as a train, however “normals” appreciate the extra capacity they provide. They would certainly notice the difference between a full-length HST turning up compared to a 4-car Voyager, especially as the latter doesn’t make good use of what little space it does have.

Well, it wasn't when it happened, but it is now !

 

[irish_rail]

I've heard "normals" complementing XC HSTs on several occasions. Same type of normals tend only to mention the smell of sh*t on Voyagers however! This idea that "normals" automatically prefer the newer train is completely false (esp now HSTs have power doors).

 

[The Planner]

I've heard "normals" complementing XC HSTs on several occasions. Same type of normals tend only to mention the smell of sh*t on Voyagers however! This idea that "normals" automatically prefer the newer train is completely false (esp now HSTs have power doors).

When have Voyagers still smelt of the bogs? Can't remember the last time I was on one with the issue.

 

[WAB]

When have Voyagers still smelt of the bogs? Can't remember the last time I was on one with the issue.

Well, unless they've magically fixed them within the last few weeks, they are still an issue. The only thing holding back the HSTs are their age, acceleration and structural integrity; the Voyagers are simply dismal. OK, they are better than no train at all, but that is not much of a comfort.

 

[irish_rail]

When have Voyagers still smelt of the bogs? Can't remember the last time I was on one with the issue.

Try yesterday. Was pretty disgusting actually as it was in the carriage and not just the vestibule.

 

[GoneSouth]

Well, unless they've magically fixed them within the last few weeks, they are still an issue. The only thing holding back the HSTs are their age, acceleration and structural integrity; the Voyagers are simply dismal. OK, they are better than no train at all, but that is not much of a comfort.

They still have a more comfortable seat, better lighting and smoother ride than the 800s. Dismal is a pacer or 150 and I wouldn’t put them anywhere near that category. Capacity and noise are it’s problems.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Problem is last Labour government didn't exactly cover themselves in glory where rail system was concerned.

OK that was more than 13 years ago. Its an entirely different administration now. Not very fair on Labour to tarnish them with the mistakes of the Blair/ Brown era. Ancient history frankly. What IS current is the Tories wrecking the railways as we speak with all the cuts and industrial unrest. Anything is better than this.....

Has any UK government since the end of World War 1 (or, at least, since the late 1950s) really done rail any big favours? How has the budget for rail infrustructure compared with that for Highways England's trunk-road/motorway building programme over the years?

Ok, so there's an infinite supply of it? Afraid when it comes to it Railways will lose out. If funding tight it's more of a vote loser to cut services like NHS. If it could always be found then everything would be wonderful as nothing would be short of funds.

There's a finite transport budget, yes. Cutting the NHS is out. But a new government (though probably not a majority Labour or Tory one, there would need to be a Green/Lib-Dem/Other party in Government at least as a coalition partner) could reallocate funds within transport. Just look at the Welsh Government's roads review and similar works - if we are serious about tackling climate change we should be doing a lot less road building - and that would free up money for investing in greener transport.

 

[JamesT]

Has any UK government since the end of World War 1 (or, at least, since the late 1950s) really done rail any big favours? How has the budget for rail infrustructure compared with that for Highways England's trunk-road/motorway building programme over the years?

I can’t immediately find numbers, I’d expect in the early part of that period that road might win out, but there hasn’t been a big road building plan since Roads for Prosperity was ditched in the mid-90s. Meanwhile rail has had some pretty big projects in the last few decades.
Comparing current numbers, Network Rail have £50.6bn for CP6, National Highways have £27bn for RP2 (both 5 years)

There's a finite transport budget, yes. Cutting the NHS is out. But a new government (though probably not a majority Labour or Tory one, there would need to be a Green/Lib-Dem/Other party in Government at least as a coalition partner) could reallocate funds within transport. Just look at the Welsh Government's roads review and similar works - if we are serious about tackling climate change we should be doing a lot less road building - and that would free up money for investing in greener transport.

If we’re serious about climate change we’ll be investing in electric buses which need more investment in roads to cope with their higher weight. We’ll also be investing in active travel, which also uses roads. The road building may not be of the form of giant dual carriageways cutting through the countryside, but I’d suggest there’s little scope for reducing road spend given the terrible state of road maintenance in this country.

 

[Annetts key]

… if we are serious about tackling climate change we should be doing a lot less road building - and that would free up money for investing in greener transport.

I would argue that as a country, as we currently can’t even properly maintain the road network that we have, we should be reducing the size of the road network. And that no more new roads should be built or any new road improvement work should be carried out until the whole network of the remaining roads is brought up to a reasonable standard. It’s increasingly more difficult to try to avoid all the pot holes.

A chunk of the money saved from stopping new road building could indeed be reallocated to public transport including to the railways.

If we’re serious about climate change we’ll be investing in electric buses which need more investment in roads to cope with their higher weight. We’ll also be investing in active travel, which also uses roads. The road building may not be of the form of giant dual carriageways cutting through the countryside, but I’d suggest there’s little scope for reducing road spend given the terrible state of road maintenance in this country.

No, if busses become heavier, then the regulations need to change to reflect that. Rather than up-rate the roads, you have extra wheels and axles on the busses to better distribute the increased weight. That reduces the damage that heavy vehicles do to the roads.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the primary purpose of this thread is to discuss Cross Country HST withdrawals.

Thanks

 

[Richard Scott]

There's a finite transport budget, yes. Cutting the NHS is out. But a new government (though probably not a majority Labour or Tory one, there would need to be a Green/Lib-Dem/Other party in Government at least as a coalition partner) could reallocate funds within transport. Just look at the Welsh Government's roads review and similar works - if we are serious about tackling climate change we should be doing a lot less road building - and that would free up money for investing in greener transport

Where I live in South Wales people still drive as alternative is very poor. Might be money going in Cardiff but little where I live. Been campaigning for a local railway station for years but still nothing so, in reality, Welsh Government no better for majority of people. And as for 20mph speed limits cause more traffic chaos and pollution in reality. But we're now massively off topic.

 

[CTS1990]

I have heard some rumours on another thread that the GWR Castles may be retained until May 2024. Could the Cross Country sets see a reprieve?

 

[ChrisC]

I do prefer the HST but I also think it is mainly just an enthusiast thing...
Did a trip down to Devon recently with my wife. Voyager one way, HST the other. I asked her which she preferred and she hadn't even noticed they were different!

The big difference for me is that when travelling with luggage there is room on an HST to put my small case on the overhead rack above where I am sitting. I hate travelling on a Voyager where I have to put my case on a rack at the end of the carriage often where I can’t keep an eye on it. That‘s a big issue for me having been travelling with friends many years ago who had their case stolen. I’m not happy about placing my case on any train somewhere where I can’t see it.

 

[Richard Scott]

I do prefer the HST but I also think it is mainly just an enthusiast thing...
Did a trip down to Devon recently with my wife. Voyager one way, HST the other. I asked her which she preferred and she hadn't even noticed they were different!

I have family who notice the difference and are definitely not enthusiasts. They always moan about Voyagers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have only just come across the schedule for their withdrawal, what I had not realised is that Cross Country had planned on using more HSTs and had leased additional power cars for this. But this plan is now abandoned.

As a 6-7 times per year traveller from Leeds to Cornwall I will really miss their additional capacity.

 

[geoffk]

14 XC departures north from Plymouth yesterday - of which two were HST (7 cars), six were 4-car 220 or 221, five were 5-car 221 and one was 9-car 220+221 (5-car forward from Bristol). Bristol - Manchester back to hourly so there will be limited scope for running double Voyagers and some departure times will always be more popular than others.