Cross Country Routes that never existed, but theoretically could have

[Sad Sprinter]

Thinking about my latest (and hopefully finalised) design for a model railway, I've been researching the South Coast to Northern England/Scotland cross country services quite a bit, and its led me to ponder what other region pairs we could have seen, or indeed could still see. For the benefit of my own layout, at least, I've thought of three potential "Intercity" corridors that could theoretically have existed at some point during the BR era:

Brighton to Bristol via Kensington the GWML (faster than going via the North Downs maybe?)
Brighton to East Anglia (either via Cambridge/Ely or Colchester)
Cornwall to East Anglia

Again, doesn't have to make business sense, just any theoretical region pairings that never existed.

 

[JonathanH]

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

Yes I've wondered that also. Perhaps Bournemouth/South West routes will just run towards the East Midlands/North East only.

 

[GreenFlag]

I'm always surprised that the cities of South Wales aren't better connected to the rest of the country. Yes you can get to Manchester or Birmingham, but it's basically just a regional service.

 

[Zomboid]

Something like Bournemouth to Sheffield via Leicester and the east midlands could have happened.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm always surprised that the cities of South Wales aren't better connected to the rest of the country. Yes you can get to Manchester or Birmingham, but it's basically just a regional service.

Welcome to Forums.

People seem to get very animated about ‘inter city’ or ‘regional’ distinctions. Personally I’ve always considered journeys other than to from ‘the capital’ are inherently ‘regional’ but accept that others may disagree.

South Wales (or at least Cardiff and Newport) also has through services to the West Country and the Solent Area.

 

[Zomboid]

South Wales (or at least Cardiff and Newport) also has through services to the West Country and the Solent Area.

And through the west midlands to Nottingham.
It's only really the north east and Scotland where direct services are lacking. Plus Kent, but Kent has no useful interregional services to anywhere.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Welcome to Forums.

People seem to get very animated about ‘inter city’ or ‘regional’ distinctions. Personally I’ve always considered journeys other than to from ‘the capital’ are inherently ‘regional’ but accept that others may disagree.

South Wales (or at least Cardiff and Newport) also has through services to the West Country and the Solent Area.

South Wales’s links to the West Country aren’t very quick though. The Cardiff to Penzance train calls at all if not most stations I think. There isn’t a Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Taunton, Exeter etc fast train for example

 

[Failed Unit]

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

Ipswich to Leeds did run in the 1980s, I have a photo of a 150/1 sprinter running it. May have only ran once per day. No idea why. Definitely not a real service but something BR did for some reason.

 

[Zomboid]

South Wales’s links to the West Country aren’t very quick though. The Cardiff to Penzance train calls at all if not most stations I think. There isn’t a Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Taunton, Exeter etc fast train for example

Very few non-London trains are actually fast. It's often quicker and more convenient for me to do Oxford to Newcastle via London then it is to go on the direct XC

 

[A S Leib]

Very few non-London trains are actually fast. It's often quicker and more convenient for me to do Oxford to Newcastle via London then it is to go on the direct XC

In that case it doesn't help that Reading to York via Doncaster is ~34 rail miles longer than King's Cross to York (although that's not big enough of a gap by itself to explain the difference).

Were there ever regular passenger services from Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare, East Kilbride etc. to places outside Wales / Scotland?

 

[Magdalia]

Brighton to East Anglia (either via Cambridge/Ely or Colchester)

This existed for excursion traffic using the Wapping tunnel, with a reversal at Liverpool Street. There were also schools excursions from East Anglia to Portsmouth and Southampton via the North London Line.

Something like Bournemouth to Sheffield via Leicester and the east midlands could have happened.

It did. Bournemouth-York and vice versa ran Monday-Saturday via Banbury, Leicester and Sheffield until the Great Central closed in 1966.

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

There was also the Pines Express running Monday-Saturday between Manchester and Bournemouth. Until 1962 it ran via the Somerset and Dorset.

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

Yarmouth/Lowestoft-York and vice versa also existed and ran Monday-Saturday via March and the Joint line until 1970.

Cornwall to East Anglia

There was never any significant long distance cross country traffic via the Cambridge-Oxford route. It remains to be seen whether East West Rail ever changes that.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was never any significant long distance cross country traffic via the Cambridge-Oxford route. It remains to be seen whether East West Rail ever changes that.

I was thinking more so via Birmingham and Leicester

 

[Bevan Price]

And through the west midlands to Nottingham.
It's only really the north east and Scotland where direct services are lacking. Plus Kent, but Kent has no useful interregional services to anywhere.

The Kent coast used to have through services to Birkenhead Woodside via Birmingham Snow Hill. Some multi-portion trains serving (I think) Dover, Ramsgate, as well as Brighton, Eastbourne or Hastings, dependent on season.

 

[Magdalia]

I was thinking more so via Birmingham and Leicester

Cambridge-Cornwall via Leicester and Birmingham would be a very long way round, and is complete fantasy.

Cambridge-Bristol via Leicester and Birmingham is 227 miles. Going via Oxford and Bristol (or London) 227 miles from Cambridge gets to Exeter!

 

[HST43257]

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

Had HS2 East happened, with 1h21 Leeds journey times, I could have absolutely seen a situation where a link onto East West Rail (or via Ely works) could open up this connection, as Peterborough etc would still want a Leeds connection of course

 

[Uncle Buck]

In that case it doesn't help that Reading to York via Doncaster is ~34 rail miles longer than King's Cross to York (although that's not big enough of a gap by itself to explain the difference).

Were there ever regular passenger services from Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare, East Kilbride etc. to places outside Wales / Scotland?

East Kilbride was only built in the Sixties by which time the railways were in decline. It also sits at the end of a local branch line, although I believe that in the distant past this line did connect to Hamilton.

I have a feeling that there weee services from Ayr to London at one point. Ayrshire could definitely do with a direct, fast Edinburgh train- although I am unsure of what route this would take.

The Kent coast used to have through services to Birkenhead Woodside via Birmingham Snow Hill. Some multi-portion trains serving (I think) Dover, Ramsgate, as well as Brighton, Eastbourne or Hastings, dependent on season.

What route did these take around London to get from the now-Chiltern Line to Kent?

 

[Severnia333]

London to Birmingham via Oxford? Eminently possible but not been a service for a while.

 

[gingerheid]

I have a feeling that there weee services from Ayr to London at one point. Ayrshire could definitely do with a direct, fast Edinburgh train- although I am unsure of what route this would take.

Ayr had a Sleeper until 1990.

For a while more recently there were of course a few 'direct' trains to Edinburgh, but they weren't exactly fast!

 

[Topological]

Bath to Lincoln via Leicester with portions from Chichester and Exeter. There would then be a Colchester to Chester via London and St Albans with a portion for Manchester.

This would be a Roman inspired Cross Country and would not serve any newfangled towns like Birmingham, Nottingham or Liverpool.

 

[hexagon789]

I have a feeling that there weee services from Ayr to London at one point. Ayrshire could definitely do with a direct, fast Edinburgh train- although I am unsure of what route this would take.

The Royal Scot started back from Ayr (running in a peak commuter slot to Glasgow Central, where it reversed) then ran on to London Euston for a few years in the 1980s, there was a return from Euston to Ayr but not the Royal Scot working.

Originally Class 47/4 haulage, an 87 or sometimes 86 worked to/from Ayr after electrification.

Going further back, there were direct summer Saturday trains from Edinburgh Princes Street to Ayr, Heads of Ayr and Gourock via Shotts.

There were also direct seasonal services between Largs and Newcastle and Largs and Blackpool North until the late-70/early 80s.

 

[BenS]

Bradford (city of over 500,000) to Birmingham - possibly via Manchester.

 

[Magdalia]

What route did these take around London to get from the now-Chiltern Line to Kent?

Birkenhead-Margate was a GWR train. It ran via Reading and Redhill. The Kent/Sussex portions split/joined at Redhill

I have a feeling that there weee services from Ayr to London at one point.

Euston-Stranraer trains went via Ayr after the Port Road closed.

Bath to Lincoln via Leicester

What lack of ambition! This is a bit reminiscent of the Cleethorpes-Exmouth, which did exist. It was basically a Midland train so ran via Lincoln, Nottingham, Birmingham and Bath.

 

[The Ham]

XC services running to Salisbury (assuming that there was capacity to get them to Basingstoke but not to Winchester or Southampton).

Although that would require XC to have more trains.

 

[dk1]

Ipswich to Leeds did run in the 1980s, I have a photo of a 150/1 sprinter running it. May have only ran once per day. No idea why. Definitely not a real service but something BR did for some reason.

It was Ipswich to Sheffield. The unit was used for training in its long lay over at Ipswich and returned in the afternoon.

 

[daodao]

Something like Bournemouth to Sheffield via Leicester and the east midlands could have happened.

There was a through express on this route via Woodford Halse until the former GC main line closed to through traffic in 1966. Before WW2, there was also a restaurant car express from Newcastle-upon-Tyne to South Wales via Woodford Halse and Bourton-on-the-Water.

While the former GC main line to London was a duplicate route, closure of the line via Woodford Halse to Banbury destroyed the principal North-South English cross-country route avoiding Birmingham. The North and West main line via the Marches runs through SE Wales and is no longer used for regular services to the West Country.

 

[Falcon1200]

There was never any significant long distance cross country traffic via the Cambridge-Oxford route. It remains to be seen whether East West Rail ever changes that.

Travelling regularly as I do between Glasgow and Oxford, the option of changing at Milton Keynes is attractive, especially as I can get a bus home from Oxford Parkway!

I have a feeling that there weee services from Ayr to London at one point. Ayrshire could definitely do with a direct, fast Edinburgh train- although I am unsure of what route this would take.

There were at one time (late 70s/early 80s) both daytime and overnight Stranraer/Euston trains, running as @Magdalia says via Ayr. The Ayr/Euston trains mentioned by @hexagon789 were IIRC made less attractive by long layovers at Glasgow Central.

 

[Severnia333]

Bristol (or Exeter/Plymouth) - Liverpool via Birmingham and Crewe.

 

[Zomboid]

There was a through express on this route via Woodford Halse until the former GC main line closed to through traffic in 1966. Before WW2, there was also a restaurant car express from Newcastle-upon-Tyne to South Wales via Woodford Halse and Bourton-on-the-Water.

While the former GC main line to London was a duplicate route, closure of the line via Woodford Halse to Banbury destroyed the principal North-South English cross-country route avoiding Birmingham. The North and West main line via the Marches runs through SE Wales and is no longer used for regular services to the West Country.

But the Bedford to Oxford line remained (I don't think it was ever formally closed, was it?) and yet there was never anything sent that way.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Bradford (city of over 500,000) to Birmingham - possibly via Manchester.

I had that as an idea for an open access operation.