Cross Country Trains - Who will operate it after October?

[JonathanH]

So everything will stay the same as it is now with no improvements to anything until XC moves on to a TFL style contract.

Doesn't that depend on what the DfT want its operator to provide?

The point is that the operator no longer comes along with grandiose plans of their own making. They just say how they will provide what the DfT has specified.

 

[dk1]

So everything will stay the same as it is now with no improvements to anything until XC moves on to a TFL style contract. (If those TFL style contracts ever exist that is).

Aren’t all TOCs on those kind of concession contracts now? Difference with TfL however is that that is governed by the Mayor and hence why improvements continue & staff pay deals/disputes are quickly agreed.

 

[Mamorin]

It will likely get worse before it improves again.

Had a feeling that may be the case given the cutbacks the DFT wants right now. I can sense the XC network having more stations cut from it.

 

[JonathanH]

I can sense the XC network having more stations cut from it.

Which particular potential station cuts are you most worried about? There is a fairly recognisable core operation.

 

[dk1]

Which particular potential station cuts are you most worried about? There is a fairly recognisable core operation.

I was assuming it was aimed at outside the core.

 

[Mamorin]

I ment any remaining stations that XC consider "Small". AKA anywhere with only a limited XC service (a few calls a day)

 

[JonathanH]

I ment any remaining stations that XC consider "Small". AKA anywhere with only a limited XC service (a few calls a day)

If that allowed XC to increase capacity in its core, would it be the lesser of two evils?

 

[Mamorin]

Might be, just depends on how many people used those XC services for those limited stops.

But I do understand that cutting all limited calls to increase capacity would be a good thing.

Would prefer it if XC reinstated some of their suspended limited stops but can't see that ever happening.

 

[The Planner]

Which particular potential station cuts are you most worried about? There is a fairly recognisable core operation.

There is definitely one in the core I reckon they would bin if they could, possibly two.

 

[TheBigD]

There is definitely one in the core I reckon they would bin if they could, possibly two.

Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent?

 

[The Planner]

Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent?

Not them, as it would reduce the service down too much.

 

[dk1]

Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent?

Not for the Nottingham services surely.

 

[lammergeier]

I could see Burton being dropped but Tamworth is a useful interchange for Avanti/LNR services and is always busy. Not sure where else could be realistically dropped, perhaps remaining Chesterfield stops, Wakefield at a push? Seems all a bit miserable and a distraction from the core problem which is we desperately need more trains!

 

[The Planner]

Not sure where else could be realistically dropped, perhaps remaining Chesterfield stops, Wakefield at a push? Seems all a bit miserable and a distraction from the core problem which is we desperately need more trains!

Bingo...

 

[MattRat]

I could see Burton being dropped but Tamworth is a useful interchange for Avanti/LNR services and is always busy. Not sure where else could be realistically dropped, perhaps remaining Chesterfield stops, Wakefield at a push? Seems all a bit miserable and a distraction from the core problem which is we desperately need more trains!

And it wouldn't even be the best cuts. Cut back route length to suitable interchange stations, for example York and Exeter, and you also save units, but people can still make their journeys, albeit with a transfer to another train to get to the final destination in some cases.

 

[WAB]

And it wouldn't even be the best cuts. Cut back route length to suitable interchange stations, for example York and Exeter, and you also save units, but people can still make their journeys, albeit with a transfer to another train to get to the final destination in some cases.

Doing this would be an admission of failure; you might as well give up if you sacrifice direct trains to the North East and Scotland for the East Midlands and West Yorkshire...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doing this would be an admission of failure; you might as well give up if you sacrifice direct trains to the North East and Scotland for the East Midlands and West Yorkshire...

Or it might be a means of offering a quality service using the limited resources you have.

Plymouth-Newcastle, Manchester-Bristol and Manchester-Reading would probably give you a sensible network of that nature, ignoring the Class 170 services which really should be moved to other TOCs (EMR, WMT or TfW as appropriate).

 

[zwk500]

Plymouth-Newcastle, Manchester-Bristol and Manchester-Reading would probably give you a sensible network of that nature

This, although possibly with extensions from Reading to Southampton.

 

[WAB]

Or it might be a means of offering a quality service using the limited resources you have.

Plymouth-Newcastle, Manchester-Bristol and Manchester-Reading would probably give you a sensible network of that nature, ignoring the Class 170 services which really should be moved to other TOCs (EMR, WMT or TfW as appropriate).

How long before DfT looks at the reduced revenue from reduced mileage and reduced overall passenger numbers due to the loss of the direct link and start sending Voyagers off-lease? Also not sure LNER have sufficient capacity to cope with additional passengers between York and Edinburgh at certain times.

That also assumes you can get the platforms to turn around the services - under the current timetable, you would need to have a turnaround of over an hour on a platform able to accommodate a pair of Voyagers at Newcastle - does that capacity currently exist? Is there any way to make that capacity exist without massive network-wide retimings? As for the Penzance extensions, those that remain are pretty much in marginal time aren't they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Or it might be a means of offering a quality service using the limited resources you have.

Plymouth-Newcastle, Manchester-Bristol and Manchester-Reading would probably give you a sensible network of that nature, ignoring the Class 170 services which really should be moved to other TOCs (EMR, WMT or TfW as appropriate).

Ignoring the significant gap in existing through services that would mean anyone wanting a station between Basingstoke and Bournemouth would need to change twice?

 

[dk1]

And it wouldn't even be the best cuts. Cut back route length to suitable interchange stations, for example York and Exeter, and you also save units, but people can still make their journeys, albeit with a transfer to another train to get to the final destination in some cases.

Sounds a dreadful idea. Hopefully never ever adopted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ignoring the significant gap in existing through services that would mean anyone wanting a station between Basingstoke and Bournemouth would need to change twice?

Anyone with any sense going from Manchester or Birmingham to either of those goes via London. Cheaper and probably quicker.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone with any sense going from Manchester or Birmingham to either of those goes via London. Cheaper and probably quicker.

What about intermediate stations such as Leamington, Banbury or Oxford?

But NRES suggests going from Hampshire, (eg Winchester), to Birmingham via London seems to be at least an hour slower. You could be right about Manchester though, I expect.

 

[Energy]

But NRES suggests going from Hampshire, (eg Winchester), to Birmingham via London seems to be at least an hour slower. You could be right about Manchester though, I expect.

Its 20-30 minutes between them so depends on how quickly you can get across London and how well they match up. Post HS2 no competition.

What about intermediate stations such as Leamington, Banbury or Oxford?

People seem to forget that most of XC traffic isn't end to end, and Bournemouth to Reading is hardly carrying fresh air either.

 

[3RDGEN]

XC made their service cuts in May allowing the HST's to be replaced so not sure there are any further service cuts required? The remaining Newcastle - Reading services are due to be cut back to York if/when the enhanced East Coast timetable is implemented so that should allow it to go to a clockface two hourly service.

It's mentioned in the latest Modern Railways that it's accepted capacity is an issue and it's up to XC to make business case to the Dft for some of the 22x units that will be available shortly.

 

[dk1]

The remaining Newcastle - Reading services are due to be cut back to York if/when the enhanced East Coast timetable is implemented so that should allow it to go to a clockface two hourly service.

Pre-pandemic there was a long term plan post HS2 to divert these to Hull after departing Doncaster.

 

[I'm here now]

I remember times back in the 1970's/80's/90's when you could only travel on the Inter-City services if you where travelling as an example Penzance to Birmingham and if you where travelling to Penzance to Exeter, then you would have to travel on the BR local services. Now, I am not sure how you would do that with the travelling public in the 21st Century, whereby there is probably twice the amount of people that is wanting to travel between Penzance to Exeter by train, than there was back in the 20th Century.

Now the fact that you see the Waverley service is at least something, as many places like Brighton, have long since had XC services taken away from them, such that they have to travel by Thameslink, or Gatwick Express to London and travel across London to get a train to Birmingham. Yes, it is a quicker option than the XC services which used to go via Reading/Oxford route to Coventry and Birmingham, but you only had one train. Now, it is such with the amount of services with Thameslink, Gatwick Express and Southern local services that you would not be able to fit into any timetable any XC service to finish/start to/from Brighton. The other issue is that there was not really the demand there to be keeping the XC services from Brighton, as there is more of a demand for people to commute locally and to London. The same I believe is happening in Cornwall, with GWR upping the amount of services that they provide to enable people to better commute through Cornwall and Devon.

When I look at Real Time trains, you do have the following XC services from Penzance:

06:28 Service to Edingburgh
08:37 Service to Edingburgh
20:47 Service from Edingburgh
21:35 Service from Aberdeen

In between the above services is there is movements from and to Penzance T&RSMD.

It would be good if cities/towns such as Portsmouth, Brighton, Eastbourne, Ashford International, Folkstone, Dover, Norwich, Cleethorpes all had similar covering from XC. But it will never happen, as the requirement for local commuter services or services where people can travel to London is greater than people travelling to say Coventry or Birmingham.

Not sure how you would do it, but I do think that the Department of Transport should send a survey where they have mobile phone/email contact details for motorists each year to find out where they have travelled too in their vehicles each year. From this you would have a better idea where bus services and train services are needed both locally and nationally each year.

Providing more services to places up north, at least in the summer could attract holiday traffic. They recently cut the Newquay summer service and I don't blame them (it's a slow route), but perhaps they could do a service to Penzance, splitting to St Ives or Falmouth. They could also do with decreasing the fares to compete with the air services, which are only becoming more and more competitive.

 

[dk1]

Providing more services to places up north, at least in the summer could attract holiday traffic. They recently cut the Newquay summer service and I don't blame them (it's a slow route), but perhaps they could do a service to Penzance, splitting to St Ives or Falmouth. They could also do with decreasing the fares to compete with the air services, which are only becoming more and more competitive.

You’ll have no chance whatsoever of getting to St.Ives or Falmouth. Both lines are fully occupied & the last thing they would need with their tight operational requirements is a long distance service venturing onto the branches with the inherent risk of causing additional delays to the single lines. I wonder if the Cornish metro is that good an idea & will spoil the self contained nature of the Maritime Line.

 

[RobShipway]

Providing more services to places up north, at least in the summer could attract holiday traffic. They recently cut the Newquay summer service and I don't blame them (it's a slow route), but perhaps they could do a service to Penzance, splitting to St Ives or Falmouth. They could also do with decreasing the fares to compete with the air services, which are only becoming more and more competitive.

But there is services as my post earlier shows from both Edingburgh and Aberdeen. Like @dk1 I don't see any XC services going to St Ives or Falmouth, when city areas such as Brighton do not have any XC service anymore.

You also got places like Great Yarmouth where services would be good in coming from places say such as Birmingham or Liverpool, but currently any passengers wanting to do so have to change at Norwich certainly to get to Liverpool with East Midland Railway. But for travellers to get from say Great Yarmouth to Birmingham New Street you have to change at Norwich and Ely.

 

[rjames87]

Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent?

If Burton was removed, who else would run services there, as it’s only XC currently.