KashmireHawker
Member
I did think that myself when boarding it ahahaWhat's one of those?
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CrossCountry Trains advert banned over ‘insufficient’ free food and drink claims…
- Thread starter Metrolink
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RailUK Forums
To be honest this is also an issue on TPE.
TOCs need to be held accountable with a published definition of what first-class service shall include, and anything short of that should result in compensation. If it is not within the definition, which must be available for the duration of travel on all services where there is a first-class, they should not be permitted to use it in any advertising or promotional material.
There is already a general public perception that rail in the UK is a complete rip-off, and stuff like this really does not help with that image.
TOCs need to be held accountable with a published definition of what first-class service shall include, and anything short of that should result in compensation. If it is not within the definition, which must be available for the duration of travel on all services where there is a first-class, they should not be permitted to use it in any advertising or promotional material.
There is already a general public perception that rail in the UK is a complete rip-off, and stuff like this really does not help with that image.
Bishopstone
Established Member
I think people should be careful what they wish for. If you get offered nothing on the Highland Chieftain, end-to-end, and you've paid £400, then I think a claim is in order.
If you get biscuits instead of an advertised cheese sandwich on TPE between Manchester and Huddersfield, and you've paid £17 with a railcard discount etc, then expecting £5 compensation - and to pay someone back office another £5-plus to assess and process the claim - is not going to be conducive to retention of bargain fares, catering, or both.
MrJeeves
Established Member
It's only as of the last few weeks that Avanti explicitly have separate weekday/weekend 1st class menus available online.
Prior to this, it was reliant on you just knowing which items were and were not available on which days, which was a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Very annoyed when I "only" got a sausage sandwich instead of my Full English...
Prior to this, it was reliant on you just knowing which items were and were not available on which days, which was a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Very annoyed when I "only" got a sausage sandwich instead of my Full English...
IIRC, 'back in the day' First Class meant no more than 50% more space for 50% higher fare than the then Second Class; no 'complimentary catering'. Restaurant car or Buffet- you paid for what you got. There was no 'guarantee' as to what part of the journey would provide catering, only RC or BC in the timetable. There was no 'Delay repay'. There was no competition from McDonalds; no Starbucks. Trains have been designed and made up with a proportion of First Class in accord with market expectations way before Covid and the subsequent 'Great Resignation'. Is 'catering' really required today; is it 'profitable'? Only askin' ....
Metrolink
Member
It is required to match the price point - it is absurd and utterly shambolic at the moment and the very least is try to make an effort. Sure, catering can be disrupted within reason but the excuses are pretty poor.
I don’t use it myself when I travel standard - as you mentioned there are an abundance of other vendors who are significantly cheaper - and would never buy first class (except on maybe LNER) as it doesn’t live up to the price I’m paying especially with the competition of airfares for long distance etc.
The key issue is not delivering what is promised and that is not acceptable corporate behaviour. You highlight lots of points which, whilst worthy of discussion elsewhere, are not really relevant.
Turtle
Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 297
The railway partaking in sharp business practice. Surely not. It is as pure as the driven snow.
station_road
Member
It's only as of the last few weeks that Avanti explicitly have separate weekday/weekend 1st class menus available online.
Prior to this, it was reliant on you just knowing which items were and were not available on which days, which was a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Very annoyed when I "only" got a sausage sandwich instead of my Full English...
Avanti have been publishing separate weekends menus since at least December 2021, you can see the links to those (although not the actual menu) on the internet archive
First Class Menu | First Class Food & Drinks | Avanti West Coast
Travel First Class with Avanti West Coast & experience our range of mouth-watering menus from early breakfast to a late supper, all with table service.web.archive.org
As someone who is normally First 8-12 times a month, the main point of it is space to work, a solo seat (ideally), peace and quiet away from the more exotic variety of passengers found in standard, and in seat power. A cup of coffee or bottle of water is welcome but a sandwich that's materially worse than one M&S really doesn't add much value. I'd rather have a functional 5G based wifi that makes Google Workspace workable at 125mph.
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They will probably say that there is no demand for the Full English anymore.Very annoyed when I "only" got a sausage sandwich instead of my Full English...
And that would be fine if that's what the TOC advertised that it offers but that wasn't the case.
Oh for sure, was more making the point that the catering for me is a very small part of the product.
Having just left a service of theirs where catering was provided and the staff friendly, it was genuinely a great trip - they *can* indeed do it! But it does feel like the exception.
Yeah I learned you always have to ask for sandwiches and that they're never offered, which is disappointing as the less regular traveler will lose out. They make you feel like you've asked for their first born too when you do ask, the hesitation and panic today when I asked for a sandwich was amusing.
It all feels very hush hush, so I'm guessing they don't stock nearly enough to meet potential demand. Guessing them spending an extra £50 for a few extra sandwiches for an Aberdeen to Penzance route and would cause the sky to fall in.
Agreed - I think they flog the sarnies instead.
But I've done a 500 odd mile round trip on XC today, out in standard and return in first and found all of the crew, regardless of job title to be superb and thoroughly enjoyed both runs - on the way out a 9 car 22x lash up and return a 5 car 221. Plenty of coffee, biccies and so on available and more offered than I took with a "just tell me if you want more stuff" in first on return. A great day out and how to make rail travel enjoyable.
Yet it was Arriva who introduced the 'bistro' area on HSTs and then started to offer pre-booked cooked meals of a reasonable standard in Standard, never mind First. I had no real complaints about either. All seems a long time ago now mind you.
furgus2
Member
This was the response I had from a Cross country Customer Relations Consultant (!) when I complained about the lack of catering in 1st class:
“Thank you for contacting CrossCountry regarding your return journey between Newcastle and Banbury 05/04/2023.
I can understand your disappointment we were unable to provide the First Class experience that you were looking forward to and I am sorry for this.
Unfortunately every train company offers different levels of service and I can confirm that when you purchase a First Class ticket, none of that cost is to cover refreshments. When you purchase a First Class ticket you are paying for the environment which offers fewer customers per carriage, larger reclining chairs, a more relaxing environment conducive for working and more leg room. The light refreshments which we offer are complimentary and subject to availability. Although we aim to provide refreshments to all of our First Class passengers we are currently reviewing our on board catering and some services do not have catering available. We recommend that whenever travelling, passengers bring adequate refreshments for their journey as stated on our website.”
it’s the final sentence that I find most disconcerting. I don’t claim to have read every part of their website but I’ve not spotted where it states this recommendation.
“Thank you for contacting CrossCountry regarding your return journey between Newcastle and Banbury 05/04/2023.
I can understand your disappointment we were unable to provide the First Class experience that you were looking forward to and I am sorry for this.
Unfortunately every train company offers different levels of service and I can confirm that when you purchase a First Class ticket, none of that cost is to cover refreshments. When you purchase a First Class ticket you are paying for the environment which offers fewer customers per carriage, larger reclining chairs, a more relaxing environment conducive for working and more leg room. The light refreshments which we offer are complimentary and subject to availability. Although we aim to provide refreshments to all of our First Class passengers we are currently reviewing our on board catering and some services do not have catering available. We recommend that whenever travelling, passengers bring adequate refreshments for their journey as stated on our website.”
it’s the final sentence that I find most disconcerting. I don’t claim to have read every part of their website but I’ve not spotted where it states this recommendation.
Seems fair. Anybody traveled on a double Voyager with the inevitable ‘catering is only available in the front 4 carriages of this train’ announcements? Happened again to me today and I really would have liked a cup of tea after 3 hours onboard.
To make it even worse they then continue to announce to the whole train all the goodies and offers available only to the lucky few in the front 4 carriages. Thanks XC for a completely unreliable shambles of a service.
To make it even worse they then continue to announce to the whole train all the goodies and offers available only to the lucky few in the front 4 carriages. Thanks XC for a completely unreliable shambles of a service.
Well its not on the two most obvious pages - "First Class Train Food and Drink" and "On-board Food and Drink".
Wonder what their hourly consultancy rate is?
What a load of irrelevant waffle. You've contacted XC about a XC service; the service that is (or isn't) offered on other operators' services is irrelevant unless you happened to mention it in your complaint!
This seems a deliberately disingenuous way of describing the situation. You could rephrase that as "when you purchase a train ticket, none of that cost is to cover the cost of employing a driver" and it would be equally true but also missing the point - both from a customer service perspective, as well as legally. The legal position is that if they're advertising first class catering as a reason to upgrade, it is highly likely for the provision of such catering to form a binding term of the contract, which they are thus in breach of if they fail to provide as advertised.
If catering were genuinely 'complimentary' in the sense of being a 'nice-to-have optional extra' then they wouldn't be advertising it. Of course, they do because advertising it and thus attracting First Class upgrades is a key reason for shelling out for catering and the required staff...
They can't have it both ways.
Again, irrelevant waffle. Unless they've specifically said that catering won't be available on the service you booked to travel on, such covering of rear ends is entirely ineffectual from a legal perspective.
Perhaps a pragmatic suggestion given the unreliability of on-train catering - but it's unacceptable to include such phrases, as if to imply the customer is at fault for their service failure! Sadly such customer blaming isn't uncommon.
Take a pdf download of the key pages you deem relevant and that it isn’t there on, and then ask them to link you to where it is. As you’ve said, it may be on another part of the site - but I’ve found a few times now that TOC Customer Services have said ‘we tell our customers xyz’ or ‘our website says abc’ but when I’ve asked them to link to it, or tell me which section of NRCoT or specific ticketing terms it’s relevant to, they’ve been unable to (or they’ve linked me to it, and it’s said something entirely different from what they’ve said it says - and they’ve subsequently agreed with me). If XC can’t link you to it, I’d say it‘s fair to believe they’ve misled you.
And yet it still says "and complimentary food and drink on most services" elsewhere. Unbelievable
Entirely unsurprising see to me. As someone who’s worked on a XC depot, it’s obvious that they don’t even bother to stock the first class galley overnight/in preparation for services.
So whilst they may be blaming the strikes and weather; I can safely say that it is absolutely not those reasons.
Especially given that strikes have only really affected a couple of weeks worth of work in the last year-18 months. And you have to ask yourself; would storms really have that much of an affect on onboard catering crews?
So whilst they may be blaming the strikes and weather; I can safely say that it is absolutely not those reasons.
Especially given that strikes have only really affected a couple of weeks worth of work in the last year-18 months. And you have to ask yourself; would storms really have that much of an affect on onboard catering crews?
Thd response demonstrates XC's contempt for customers and their legal and contractual obligations.
If they'd taken advise from members of this forum, they could have corrected their ways and avoided this damaging ruling; but as we see so often, some train companies bury their heads in the sand.
They are so used to taking (or threatening) legal actions against customers, they fail to get their own house in order.
But now they have had this ruling against them, I would hope in future their response to such feedback would be more satisfactory. We'll see....
Snow1964
Established Member
Yes I agree, XC were rather stupid to advertise complimentary food and sandwiches throughout the day.
Even on single units often not available near start or end of route, and on double units, being available in all First Class seats seems to be rarity.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Was it, IIRC, LNER who came out with a similar nonsense some time ago? It is nonsense, because unless the catering providers gift XC the food and drink, and the staff serving it are working for nothing, which of course is not the case, these things have to be paid for, and if not from the fares paid by passengers, where does the money come from?
If and when XC face legal action over the issue the required legal disclosure over that issue will be "interesting"....
There’s nothing like a busman’s holiday
.Yes that is the position as reflected by the national rail conditions of travel, whereby you can claim a refund of the first class premium if you’re unable to use first class (eg due to the coach being locked out), but there’s no mention made of refreshments. The benefit you’re paying a premium for is the enhanced accommodation. However that isn’t to say that TOCs should be making unrealistic or misleading statements about catering that then become potentially binding.
It’s the same where I am; complimentary refreshments are generally available in first but, if there’s no customer host, that will be subject to the guard having time to do them (and also subject to them being loaded, not running out etc.). We don’t seem to have the same issues, partly because the journeys are much shorter, partly because we have better staff availability than XC.
It appears that XC have now amended their website, as the ASA have acknowledged, to make clear that 1st class catering is very much subject to availability, not guaranteed etc.
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