Crossrail - Construction updates and progress towards opening (now expected 24 May 2022)

[miklcct]

St Pancras also has SPX, for services using HS1.

SPX is for international services, which is, for all purposes, distinct from St Pancras (domestic) station.

 

[ijmad]

Thanks. Let me check: it could be 22 without this software working, it won’t be higher than that in service this year.

Not in normal operation. Paddington will initially only need to turn back the Abbey Wood initial core services (12tph) and then in September (or whenever Phase 5 happens), it'll turn back the Shenfield services (12tph) and a few of the Abbey Wood services (as not all will go out to the west). I think the need to turn back 22/24tph is only to deal with major disruption or engineering works on the GWML meaning the entire service could need to be turned there.

 

[hwl]

Not in normal operation. Paddington will initially only need to turn back the Abbey Wood initial core services (12tph) and then in September (or whenever Phase 5 happens), it'll turn back the Shenfield services (12tph) and a few of the Abbey Wood services (as not all will go out to the west). I think the need to turn back 22/24tph is only to deal with major disruption or engineering works on the GWML meaning the entire service could need to be turned there.

22tph in the core is the limit till software is sorted.
Hence starting out 12tph Abbey Wood - Paddington LL isn't an issue.
Adding 12tph turning back at Paddington LL from Shenfield is which limits it to 10tph hence the remaining 2 tph will still need to go to Liverpool Street HL P16-18 instead along with the planned peak extra upto 4ph Gidea Park - P16-18 depending on how much peak demand has returned.

 

[ijmad]

22tph in the core is the limit till software is sorted.
Hence starting out 12tph Abbey Wood - Paddington LL isn't an issue.
Adding 12tph turning back at Paddington LL from Shenfield is which limits it to 10tph hence the remaining 2 tph will still need to go to Liverpool Street HL P16-18 instead along with the planned peak extra upto 4ph Gidea Park - P16-18 depending on how much peak demand has returned.

But I thought the new plan for Phase 5 was to bring in the Reading/Heathrow and Shenfield services at the same time which would only mean turning those trains not proceeding onto the GWML at Paddington LL? Perhaps I've misinterpreted quite how 'simultaneous' Phase 5 is, or might there be a requirement to be able to turn the whole service at Paddington LL for safety reasons?

 

[Taunton]

You don’t need auto turn back for initial 12tph (every 5 minutes) service.

I can only point out that auto turn back was installed by the Mersey Railway in 1903 on scheduled 24tph (one every 2.5 minutes) at Liverpool Central. It was a pioneering installation by Westinghouse, the train was in the turnback siding for about 5 seconds before the power points all reversed automatically, and the train was on the move back out again with a green signal a few seconds later. Big wheeze and wham from the compressed-air points as they changed and were locked. Just one reversing siding, once the train was out it reset for the next one. No signalman at all, all automatic. Original kit lasted 70 years, finally removed in 1978 when the Loop was built.

Amazing that software can't do this 120 years later. Incidentally, it was commissioned and got going, faultlessly, over a weekend. George Westinghouse himself personally came over from the USA to supervise the opening day.

 

[theking]

Looks really silly with the addition of 'line'. No need for it, just extra words!

Yup!

Maybe they will have a change in the future.

The new Battersea power station name got ridiculed because of the extra station, pretty sure they changed it now so its just Battersea Power Station on the external signs.

 

[Bald Rick]

SPX is for international services, which is, for all purposes, distinct from St Pancras (domestic) station.

and Southeastern.

 

[stuu]

I can only point out that auto turn back was installed by the Mersey Railway in 1903 on scheduled 24tph (one every 2.5 minutes) at Liverpool Central. It was a pioneering installation by Westinghouse, the train was in the turnback siding for about 5 seconds before the power points all reversed automatically, and the train was on the move back out again with a green signal a few seconds later. Big wheeze and wham from the compressed-air points as they changed and were locked. Just one reversing siding, once the train was out it reset for the next one. No signalman at all, all automatic. Original kit lasted 70 years, finally removed in 1978 when the Loop was built.

Amazing that software can't do this 120 years later. Incidentally, it was commissioned and got going, faultlessly, over a weekend. George Westinghouse himself personally came over from the USA to supervise the opening day.

The auto reverse on Crossrail means the train driving automatically from Paddington to the sidings at Westbourne Park, and then reversing back to the eastbound platform whilst the driver switches ends. Which is a lot more complicated than your example

 

[SECR263]

Apols if already answered but TFL trains announcing WiFi switched off plus station posters saying same as they need to integrate with the "systems." Is this only WiFi or is it affecting train signalling? Thanks.

 

[BahrainLad]

I took a TfL East train this morning and the PIS was all over the place, completely wrong destination on the displays and then the announcements repeated several times that the destination had changed to x. Perhaps something to do with it?

 

[Basil Jet]

The new Battersea power station name got ridiculed because of the extra station, pretty sure they changed it now so its just Battersea Power Station on the external signs.

Surely "Station Station" never appeared on the canopy name. It was usual practice that the canopy name of a station was equal to the roundel/map name plus "Station", and the map name was going to end in "Station", so people speculated that the canopy name would end in "Station Station", but I don't think it ever did.

 

[ijmad]

Station station was never anything more than a railfan joke about the anomaly of having a station name with the word station in it

 

[theking]

Station station was never anything more than a railfan joke about the anomaly of having a station name with the word station in it

Surely "Station Station" never appeared on the canopy name. It was usual practice that the canopy name of a station was equal to the roundel/map name plus "Station", and the map name was going to end in "Station", so people speculated that the canopy name would end in "Station Station", but I don't think it ever did.

Ahh my mistake apologies.

 

[AM9]

Station station was never anything more than a railfan joke about the anomaly of having a station name with the word station in it

Well there was a station at the point where the GOBlin split between the main route to Gospel Oak and the chord southwards to Kentish Town. The station was located on Junction Road and called Junction Road station. The junction was of course officially called Junction Road Junction.
Here is a crop from the RCH railway junction map showing the location.

 

[greyman42]

Should this really be discussed on a public forum, particularly if the opening is meant to be soft?

Why should we not discuss it on the forum? I can't really think of anywhere better to discuss it.

 

[rd749249]

Apols if already answered but TFL trains announcing WiFi switched off plus station posters saying same as they need to integrate with the "systems." Is this only WiFi or is it affecting train signalling? Thanks.

There is Wi-Fi interference around the transition points from TPWS to CBTC just before Stratford, specifically the Up Electric platform 5. The balises in the 4-foot have been temporarily switched off whilst a solution to the interference is sought. What this means is that drivers remain in TPWS through P5 and transitions into the COS are now performed manually at the first signal past P5.

 

[reddragon]

Why should we not discuss it on the forum? I can't really think of anywhere better to discuss it.

It's because all the other dates were speculation!

 

[Acton1991]

I took a TfL East train this morning and the PIS was all over the place, completely wrong destination on the displays and then the announcements repeated several times that the destination had changed to x. Perhaps something to do with it?

The west is also regularly messy, seems glitchy. They have also added carriage numbers to the screens which I haven't seen previously.

 

[ijmad]

The west is also regularly messy, seems glitchy. They have also added carriage numbers to the screens which I haven't seen previously.

Presumably to help with the selective door opening at some of the mainline stations?

 

[Taunton]

There is Wi-Fi interference around the transition points from TPWS to CBTC just before Stratford, specifically the Up Electric platform 5.

However did this sort of issue not be identified at any time since 2018, when they were "months away from opening"?

 

[Horizon22]

I took a TfL East train this morning and the PIS was all over the place, completely wrong destination on the displays and then the announcements repeated several times that the destination had changed to x. Perhaps something to do with it?

They have been playing up a bit recently. A recent train to Paddington kept saying it was going to Heathrow before the driver evidently got fed up, it went blank and manually announced Paddington. It stayed blank for a while & then approaching Paddington it went “new train destination: Paddington”. Not sure what’s going on there.

The west is also regularly messy, seems glitchy. They have also added carriage numbers to the screens which I haven't seen previously.

This is a new addition indeeed from about 3-4 weeks ago - although had been intended earlier I believe.

However did this sort of issue not be identified at any time since 2018, when they were "months away from opening"?

They never were anywhere near of course, who knows how that even got through.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The auto reverse on Crossrail means the train driving automatically from Paddington to the sidings at Westbourne Park, and then reversing back to the eastbound platform whilst the driver switches ends. Which is a lot more complicated than your example

and therein lies the problem its been made too complicated that they can't get it working after nearly three years. Just as well computers and worse software came after the majority of engineering understanding had been achieved in most of science.

 

[Horizon22]

and therein lies the problem its been made too complicated that they can't get it working after nearly three years. Just as well computers and worse software came after the majority of engineering understanding had been achieved in most of science.

I wouldn’t say it’s been made complicated but that simply it is complicated by its nature but is necessary for the 24tph required to run with the lack of any other suitable turnback capacity on the West.

 

[Taunton]

I wouldn’t say it’s been made complicated but that simply it is complicated by its nature but is necessary for the 24tph required to run with the lack of any other suitable turnback capacity on the West.

But that was behind my seemingly flippant example of doing it 120 years ago, or pointing to what the Victoria Line achieves at Brixton, that designers have come up with something over-challenging. It's not as if reversing such a service has not been done before. Bear in mind that the 24tph won't all be reversing, only half of it will, the rest continuing down the GWML, presumably with drivers, in passenger service, all interleaved with this, alternate trains tipping out at a single platform at Paddington, changing over there to auto driving, and changing back at the platform on the return. I wonder what designer thought that would be straightforward and reliable. It's an extraordinary geekish expense to save a few step-back drivers, as in my example of Liverpool in 1903.

They never were anywhere near [the 2018 opening] of course, who knows how that even got through.

We are of course aware of that. My point was whatever has been going on in the four years since, and how are things still cropping up now.

 

[stuu]

and therein lies the problem its been made too complicated that they can't get it working after nearly three years. Just as well computers and worse software came after the majority of engineering understanding had been achieved in most of science.

Is there any evidence they have been trying to get it to work? I don't think they have, I would have thought the software engineers had more urgent issues.

It's abundantly clear that, at best, the senior management failed to understand the scale of the problem of system integration. Its an expensive lesson to learn

 

[PG]

Inclusion of the word “line” looks odd when set against the others.

I disagree, I think it disambiguates it from the Undeground.

Looks really silly with the addition of 'line'. No need for it, just extra words!

The 'mistake' IMO was naming it the whatever line - that makes it defacto part of the tube/underground and adding line after whatever just looks odd!

Does the build standard of the escalators account for everyone standing on the right?

Do/have LU have/had problems on their escalators from this or are the Xrail escalators somehow different?

 

[Horizon22]

But that was behind my seemingly flippant example of doing it 120 years ago, or pointing to what the Victoria Line achieves at Brixton, that designers have come up with something over-challenging. It's not as if reversing such a service has not been done before. Bear in mind that the 24tph won't all be reversing, only half of it will, the rest continuing down the GWML, presumably with drivers, in passenger service, all interleaved with this, alternate trains tipping out at a single platform at Paddington, changing over there to auto driving, and changing back at the platform on the return. I wonder what designer thought that would be straightforward and reliable. It's an extraordinary geekish expense to save a few step-back drivers, as in my example of Liverpool in 1903.


We are of course aware of that. My point was whatever has been going on in the four years since, and how are things still cropping up now.

But auto-reversing a service was deemed necessary. This includes the train changing on the move (which your example didn’t do) to reduce turnarounds in a restricted space. This hasn’t been done before. As you say it’s not “straightforward & reliable” so bound to run into problems.

They weren’t even running a service into Pudding Mill Lane portal until 2+ years after the opening date, which shows you just how dramatically wrong the dates (and project managers) were. It’s not like the operators have had the whole 4 years to look at some of the issues mentioned, as train running hasn’t been going on nearly as long.

 

[Taunton]

But auto-reversing a service was deemed necessary. This includes the train changing on the move (which your example didn’t do) to reduce turnarounds in a restricted space. This hasn’t been done before. As you say it’s not “straightforward & reliable” so bound to run into problems.

They weren’t even running a service into Pudding Mill Lane portal until 2+ years after the opening date, which shows you just how dramatically wrong the dates (and project managers) were. It’s not like the operators have had the whole 4 years to look at some of the issues mentioned, as train running hasn’t been going on nearly as long.

I guess I should have been clearer, meaning it wasn't reversing 12tph (ie reversing the half of the service that was not continuing down the GWML) that had not been done before.

Who "deemed it necessary"? And why does reversing the same 12tph at the other ends, at Abbey Wood (or Shenfield) not require auto-reversing? I believe there are three reversing sidings at Old Oak. 4tph each? Why does that need auto-reverse on the move? These are reasonable questions that have received no answer.

Restricted space ? Isn't the whole reason why trains are all driven a couple of miles beyond Paddington, what I believe is the longest distance in the country trains need to go to a reversing siding, precisely because at Old Oak there is very considerable space in railway lands to build their facilities?

 

[zwk500]

We've been over this before, I'm fairly sure. We're well aware you think the Westinghouse system would be absolutely fine despite all the other operational concerns people have mentioned about On-board systems setup and driver stepping up. Let's not go over it again.

 

[Snow1964]

Restricted space ? Isn't the whole reason why trains are all driven a couple of miles beyond Paddington, what I believe is the longest distance in the country trains need to go to a reversing siding, precisely because at Old Oak there is very considerable space in railway lands to build their facilities?

There was just about enough space to have built a station at Westbourne Park (which is where the reversing sidings are), although would have needed the westbound platform to be on other side of road bridge (where the old mainline platform used to be). Possibly would only have got 2 reversing bay platforms in and an eastbound platform.

Of course if going to drive the trains there anyway, not saving buying a train by shortening the running time.

But if the incremental cost of adding a station was cheaper than cost developing an auto reversing system is something I can’t say. Probably would have been lot easier and less risky, but does have the disadvantage of slightly slowing journey time for stations further west if extra station had been built (but would have been less time lost than proposed Old Oak station where trains run faster, so would take longer to slow down and accelerate back to line speed).