Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[43066]

YES! And if railway industry people on here are saying that we are grumbling too much then there's a need for some customer orientated managemnt coming in. Closing down a few days after opening makes the line a laughing stock.

I might agree if that were the case. The route being discussed opened in 1862, however. So quite a few days ago…

 

[Acton1991]

I think a lot of people on this forum are thinking as railway workers, and not as the average public. The public have been waiting for years for the promised ‘new’ Elizabeth line. And closing it for engineering works as soon as it is fully open doesn’t look good in the public’s eyes. It damages confidence and is super frustrating.

Not everyone knows the intricacies of this line - many assume the whole thing is ‘new’.

 

[43066]

I think a lot of people on this forum are thinking as railway workers, and not as the average public. The public have been waiting for years for the promised ‘new’ Elizabeth line. And closing it for engineering works as soon as it is fully open doesn’t look good in the public’s eyes. It damages confidence and is super frustrating.

Not everyone knows the intricacies of this line - many assume the whole thing is ‘new’.

Nobody who uses the eastern end with any regularity will think it’s new. They’re taking the same trains from the same stations. It has been running as TfL rail with the current stock (terminating at Liverpool Street) for the last few years.

Did people think the Midland Mainline was new in 2018 when “new” Thameslink started?

 

[leytongabriel]

I might agree if that were the case. The route being discussed opened in 1862, however. So quite a few days ago…

Which absolutely underlines my point. Like the travelling public are concerned that the route was first opened in 18 something? Sure!!! The service people are trying to use has just opened and is now subject to closures again. How long did they have to 'prepare' the route for the Elizabeth line?

Nobody who uses the eastern end with any regularity will think it’s new. They’re taking the same trains from the same stations. It has been running as TfL rail with the current stock (terminating at Liverpool Street) for the last few years.

Did people think the Midland Mainline was new in 2018 when “new” Thameslink started?

Nobody? For one thing it has been heavily marketed as 'new' and getting loads of media coverage as 'new'. Aren't you mixing 'service' and 'line' or 'route'? We the public know full well it's an old line. It's had some new trains for a few years but so have a lot of other lines. The switch from Tfl Rail to Elizabeth line through running is a new service for the eastern suburbs. Period. Even if the current closures and breakdowns is making it the 'Tin Lizzie' line.

 

[43066]

Which absolutely underlines my point. Like the travelling public are concerned that the route was first opened in 18 something? Sure!!! The service people are trying to use has just opened and is now subject to closures again. How long did they have to 'prepare' the route for the Elizabeth line?

As above. It has been running in roughly the current form for years, just without the through running. The travelling public are queueing up to use it. If there’s a massive dip in numbers next week maybe I will agree with you.

There wont be, of course. As usual the moaning on here about normal weekend engineering works, scheduled for a very long time (as noted above) is well and truly divorced from what happens in the real world, and how the “travelling public” actually behaves.

 

[JonathanH]

How long did they have to 'prepare' the route for the Elizabeth line?

It is fact of life that there are some weekends, particularly in the autumn and winter, where the line between Liverpool Street and Shenfield is shut. The number of trains over it through the week necessitates that. That doesn't change because it now goes into a tunnel and won't change in the future either.

 

[leytongabriel]

As above. It has been running in roughly the current form for years, just without the through running. The travelling public are queueing up to use it. If there’s a massive dip in numbers next week maybe I will agree with you.

There wont be, of course. As usual the moaning on here about normal weekend engineering works, scheduled for a very long time (as noted above) is well and truly divorced from what happens in the real world, and how the “travelling public” actually behaves.

For years???? 'Just without through running' means without the long and lengthy change at Liverpool St. Didn't Tfl allow 12 mins for this or similar?
And there's the rub; 'normal weekend engineering works'. It's this idea that closures should be 'normal' that has taken root and needs to be questioned. Of course numbers during the week should stay up, unless the service collapses again. But this 'we know best-ism and anything else is 'moaning' is as depressing as it is unacceptable. Public service?

 

[43066]

For years???? 'Just without through running' means without the long and lengthy change at Liverpool St. Didn't Tfl allow 12 mins for this or similar?
And there's the rub; 'normal weekend engineering works'. It's this idea that closures should be 'normal' that has taken root and needs to be questioned. Of course numbers during the week should stay up, unless the service collapses again. But this 'we know best-ism and anything else is 'moaning' is as depressing as it is unacceptable. Public service?

Yes the 345s have indeed been running into Liverpool Street for several years, the first entering service in 2017. I use them myself regularly. It sounds like you’re in denial of the fact that railways sometimes need to be closed in order to be maintained, so there’s probably little point in discussing this further with you.

If you think you know a way to safely maintain railways without closures why don’t you ask for a meeting with Network Rail and suggest it? I’m sure they’ll be all ears.

 

[VauxhallandI]

My LHR T5 timings were better today.

Landed at 16:04 then will some taxiing shenanigan, customs and a wee stop I found myself with a 12 min wait for the train to depart at 16:52.

Through to Liverpool St with about 4 mins to spare to catch the 17:15 to Theobalds Grove, arriving 18:19.

Whilst not grease lightening it’s a lot less of a stressful journey.

Now Saturday coming I have a 7:20am flight from T5, I’m not sure I’m confident enough with our rail service to get there early enough, which means hotel costs.

 

[Sunil_P]

I might agree if that were the case. The route being discussed opened in 1862, however. So quite a few days ago…

1839 in fact.

 

[leytongabriel]

Yes the 345s have indeed been running into Liverpool Street for several years, the first entering service in 2017. I use them myself regularly. It sounds like you’re in denial of the fact that railways sometimes need to be closed in order to be maintained, so there’s probably little point in discussing this further with you.

If you think you know a way to safely maintain railways without closures why don’t you ask for a meeting with Network Rail and suggest it? I’m sure they’ll be all ears.

 

[higthomas]

I think one difference here is that it seem LU (London Underground) manage to get by with far fewer line closures than national rail.

I've just had a look at https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/planned-works-calendar and can see that there is a single closure of pure LU track between now and Christmas (on the Acton Town-Uxbridge section of the Piccadilly for one weekend). Whereas on the parts of the LU/Crossrail/London Overground run by Network rail, there are loads of closures.

I think people who are used to Underground levels of reliability are understandably shocked at how many closures national rail seems to require, despite in most cases having a much less intensive level of service.

 

[plugwash]

If you think you know a way to safely maintain railways without closures why don’t you ask for a meeting with Network Rail and suggest it? I’m sure they’ll be all ears.

A large organisation that doesn't want to do something can always find a reason/excuse not to do it.

 

[leytongabriel]

The 'years' referred to the current service not the stock. And yes I'm a regular user too. What they used to call a 'passenger' in fact. What myself and the other contibutor are objecting to is this notion of 'sometimes' or 'normal' meaning weekend closures for years. Just because something has been planned for a long time doesn't make it right or good planning. Especially when there's no joined up writing and different lines in the same part of London get closed at the same time or a new service like this is closed just after opening.
The sheer arrogance of saying 'do it yourself then' has to be symptomatic of the malaise. The public pays, in fares and taxes and if something doesn't seem adequate we have the right to say so without being asked if we could do better ouselves. How do you feel in a long airport queue, when sewage floods beaches or a new traffic system causes congestion? Sometimes things don't work properly and if people point this out then fair enough. Over and out.

 

[43066]

A large organisation that doesn't want to do something can always find a reason/excuse not to do it.

This sounds like a conspiracy theory. Perhaps you believe network rail don’t need to close lines, but do so anyway, just to annoy passengers?

The sheer arrogance of saying 'do it yourself then' has to be symptomatic of the malaise.

Not arrogance at all. I’m not claiming to be an expert on railway maintenance. I’m also not the one criticising the decisions taken by those who are…

How do you feel in a long airport queue, when sewage floods beaches or a new traffic system causes congestion? Sometimes things don't work properly and if people point this out then fair enough.

None of which is anything like what’s happening here. Crossrail is working properly. It’s generally bedding in well (albeit late). What’s happening here is a long planned weekend closure on one part of it.

 

[Horizon22]

Reprised Furze Platt via Maidenhead after last Sunday's drenching! Also, tried out the Heathrow branch today as far as Heathrow Central, no probs. However, tried getting to Terminal 2 departures (um, as a dry run for my flight later this week) and it was a bit of a long walk, 13 minutes including travelators and escalators. Seems Central station is closer to Terminal 3. Anyway, decent view of the South Runway from the top of Terminal 2!

Nothing has changed at Heathrow - will be the same walk if you were on Heathrow Express or what the former Elizabeth line service was (Heathrow Connect).

A large organisation that doesn't want to do something can always find a reason/excuse not to do it.

Please do explain how the Elizabeth Line as an operation - who are not infrastructure managers in any way - should best approach track maintenance on an intensively used 4-track stretch of railway for which they are not only the operator and for which they also share with heavy duty freight work? There are teams of people employed to look at this.

TfL regularly close section of the Underground & Overground, often for consecutive weekends. This really is not even a relevant point - the maintenance has to be done and it is more productive/efficient to do over a prolonged period rather than just at night. You have 168 hours and it needs to be completed somehow.

Of course it's not fantastic to have a section of it closed on a weekend just after it has opened, but it also doesn't point to some sort of widespread malaise.

 

[45107]

I think one difference here is that it seem LU (London Underground) manage to get by with far fewer line closures than national rail.

And most lines are closed for traffic during the night (0100-0500 ish) which probably allows time for routine maintenance which isn’t possible on ‘live’ Network Rail infrastructure

 

[Sunil_P]

Nothing has changed at Heathrow - will be the same walk if you were on Heathrow Express or what the former Elizabeth line service was (Heathrow Connect).

Yes I know that, I took updated pics of all the Heathrow stations during the summer. It's just I haven't done the walk to T2 for many years (used T3 or T5).

User:Sunil060902 - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[Benjwri]

I think people who are used to Underground levels of reliability are understandably shocked at how many closures national rail seems to require, despite in most cases having a much less intensive level of service

A lot of this is down to two factors though. The majority of the underground network is sub surface, so there are fewer extreme conditions to worry about, and two large causes of defects, rain and extreme temperature, are less present. Anything sheltered from the elements will last far longer.

The other being the underground runs at far slower speeds, and therefore there is more tolerance for these things. There is often an alternative to these kinds of engineering which is wait till something goes wrong and slap a TSR on it, which means instead of people being inconvenienced for a day or two, everyone is inconvenienced, every day, for a prolonged period. Although not totally on topic, people who hate engineering may soon get their way and have more TSRs with upcoming cuts.

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes things don't work properly and if people point this out then fair enough. Over and out.

It's always for the public to be entitled to a voice on how public money is being spent. The question is, are you advocating for the maintenance closures to be wholesale rewritten or just tweaked? Are you advocating for more or less maintenance? Do you accept there's a relationship between maintenance access hours and reliability? Do you accept that older infrastructure requires more time under maintenance than newer infrastructure? Are you also happy to accept a minimum standard of inspection and maintenance with respect to safety?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think one difference here is that it seem LU (London Underground) manage to get by with far fewer line closures than national rail.

How many half mile long container trains, or 2500 tonne stone trains, or 100mph passenger trains, run on the Piccadilly Line?

 

[Horizon22]

How many half mile long container trains, or 2500 tonne stone trains, or 100mph passenger trains, run on the Piccadilly Line?

And even the Piccadilly line has been having its fair show of weekend closures the past 6 months!

 

[Taunton]

I read all above and have to side with those dismayed with the weekend closures. A 4-track line should give some resilience, not wholly but some, over a 2-track line, but the GE main line has been plagued with these at weekends for years now, far more than other radial routes out of London, and it's not readily apparent why. All the stuff a while ago about the closures then for eg replacing the overhead and power supplies was said at the time as "necessary for the introduction of Crossrail" ...

I wonder if there is scope for 18 tph from Gidea Park to Central London or else that leg will reach max capacity in the next 10 years.

It's an interesting comparison that 55 years ago, 1967, the GE line was already running 24 tph suburban services in peak hours on the Electric lines from Liverpool Street out to Shenfield, departing Liverpool Street at 1,3,7 and 9 minutes past, every 10 minutes. This was quite separate from the services to Southend and Chelmsford etc on the Main lines. Just like today, all run with 9-car trains as well, the old 306 units.

 

[Horizon22]

It's an interesting comparison that 55 years ago, 1967, the GE line was already running 24 tph suburban services in peak hours on the Electric lines from Liverpool Street out to Shenfield, departing Liverpool Street at 1,3,7 and 9 minutes past, every 10 minutes. This was quite separate from the services to Southend and Chelmsford etc on the Main lines. Just like today, all run with 9-car trains as well, the old 306 units.

Are you sure? A 100% increase on what it was in 2019?

 

[Taunton]

Are you sure? A 100% increase on what it was in 2019?

Bit difficult to believe, isn't it? But here is the peak period timetable. The second class only trains are the 306 suburban units. A lot of short workings and back empty on the Main line for another load.

 

[Thirteen]

I get the feeling people are complaining don't live in the real world. If a nasty accident happened on the EL, they'd be the first to complain!

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I’m no expert on (or user of) the GEML, but I do regularly use the (4-track) section of the GWML from Reading to Paddington, and I must say I’d get fed up if there were total engineering closures along there any more often than the occasional ones we get. It’s not unusual for them to close two of the tracks at weekends, but the service then is still tolerable. I presume there’s a technical reason why the GE apparently has to close all four tracks so much more often than the GW, and that it’s not one that can be “fixed” easily.

Of course, Paddington <-> Reading also has passenger service all night except on Saturday night…

 

[Basil Jet]

Did the Jubilee line close a week after the extension opened due to engineering works?

Not a week, but IIRC it did close for engineering less than six months after opening.

 

[BahrainLad]

Is there any reason why during periods of engineering on the GE trains couldn’t reverse at Stratford rather than not running on the eastern branch at all?

 

[DC1989]

Odd weekend closures are fine, but every almost single weekend for 2 months?

As mentioned above, when they've been closed for long weekend periods previously, the signage has all said the closures are for preparation of the Elizabeth line. Clearly anyone would think that means once the Elizabeth line is here such long closures won't be required