Croydon Tram Crash

[GB]

Surely the 'dead man's handle' is there to stop such events when a driver 'blacks out' as some media sources are reporting?

Speaking for heavy rail, that is the general idea. But if there is still pressure or weight being applied after the driver blacks out you will have to wait untill the driver vigilance device kicks in which could be up to a minute.

 

[Antman]

If the accident scene remains cordoned off overnight then clearly some trams are going to be stranded and unable to return to Therapia Lane. Previously trams have been berthed overnight between Arena and Elmers End with a security presence but obviously trams stranded on the New Addington branch won't be able to get there.

 

[J-2739]

Ouch...:cry:

 

[gavin]

7 now confirmed dead

 

[gsnedders]

Awful. It makes you wonder how five people can be killed and others to lose limbs. It all looks rather innocuous from the pictures. One wonders about the crash worthiness of those vehicles.

I would assume many injuries come about as a result of people being thrown from their seats during the crash, especially those on the side that ended up a number of meters up in the air; no seat belts, after all!

 

[westcoaster]

Latest from the BTP, including the reason the driver was arrested.
http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13403/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon

British Transport Police officers are continuing to work at the scene of a major incident in Croydon.

Emergency services were called to a tram derailment near Sandilands tram stop at 6.13am this morning.

At least seven people are now confirmed as having died as a result of the incident.
Deputy Chief Constable Adrian Hanstock said: “This is a tragic incident and our hearts and thoughts go out to all those affected.

“When officers arrived on scene this morning shortly after 6am, they were met with a complex and challenging situation.

“Together with our partners from the other emergency services and with support from London resilience agencies, they have worked through the day, and will continue to work throughout the night, at the scene.

“After liaison with the Coroner, we can confirm that at least seven people have lost their lives as a result of this incident.

“Our officers will continue to work tirelessly throughout the evening to formally identify them and provide care and support for their families.

“Identifying those who have died can be a complex and lengthy process and we want to ensure we get this right.

“We expect to be at the scene for at least the next 24 hours, continuing searches and carrying out forensic examinations in support of the investigation into the circumstances, and in order to provide a report for the Coroner.

“Tomorrow, we will assess how and when it is appropriate to recover the tram and remove it from the tracks.

“I want to thank everyone who assisted at the scene, and behind the scenes, in Croydon today.
“In the coming days, we will continue to work alongside the Rail Accident Investigation Branch to establish the circumstances of how this happened.

“At this stage it is too early to speculate on a single factor being the cause of this incident.”

A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To those who are disappointed by the media coverage of this tragic accident I would make a couple of points. First to most members of the general public, which includes journalists, a tram is just a method of road transport that happens to be guided by rails and occasionally runs on segregated sections. That perception is accentuated by the appearance of trams, both externally and internally, being much more like a bus than a train. As such a tram accident is seen as more like a road traffic accident than a train crash and will therefore be seen as less newsworthy. Manchester Metrolink has had many fatal accidents over the years but the majority have been pedestrian knockdowns and I doubt any of them were widely reported. Secondly the images of this accident scene show a vehicle which appears largely intact. The wheels are still attached and there is no obvious damage visible. I would suggest that this lack of visible crushed metal or shattered glass will have reduced the sensationalist value of the accident as a news story leading to it having the profile in news bulletins that we have witnessed. Only when it became known that people had lost their lives did it receive more reporting priority.

As to possible causes that is clearly for the RAIB to determine. The fact that overspeed has already been officially mentioned is perhaps significant but does not assign blame in any way. The witness reports regarding the possible medical status of the driver should be taken with a pinch of salt; it has been the case time and again in such situations that eyewitnesses can be surprisingly unreliable.

 

[Antman]

Awful. It makes you wonder how five people can be killed and others to lose limbs. It all looks rather innocuous from the pictures. One wonders about the crash worthiness of those vehicles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not in a tram, which is a light rail vehicle operated on sight using a simple signalling system.

The tram must have slid on it's side for some distance and the casualties could have been a lot higher. As bad as it is it could have been a lot worse, an hour or two later and the tram would have been packed and thank goodness there wasn't a tram coming the other way at the time. Small mercies.

 

[Domh245]

I'm fairly sure that the trams have a vigilance device in that they have to depress their CTBC before moving it - releasing it will return it to neutral, sound an alarm, and then apply brakes if not cleared.

I would assume many injuries come about as a result of people being thrown from their seats during the crash, especially those on the side that ended up a number of meters up in the air; no seat belts, after all!

What must come as some concern though is that they a number of people were trapped, one would presume underneath the vehicle, which would imply that they had been ejected from it at some point in the accident.

 

[Astradyne]

I'm fairly sure that the trams have a vigilance device in that they have to depress their CTBC before moving it - releasing it will return it to neutral, sound an alarm, and then apply brakes if not cleared.



What must come as some concern though is that they a number of people were trapped, one would presume underneath the vehicle, which would imply that they had been ejected from it at some point in the accident.

That could well be the case, but I do not think that it is safe to make that assumption ... I am expecting the underside to be fairly mangled when lifted

 

[Andyh82]

To those who are disappointed by the media coverage of this tragic accident I would make a couple of points. First to most members of the general public, which includes journalists, a tram is just a method of road transport that happens to be guided by rails and occasionally runs on segregated sections. That perception is accentuated by the appearance of trams, both externally and internally, being much more like a bus than a train. As such a tram accident is seen as more like a road traffic accident than a train crash and will therefore be seen as less newsworthy. Manchester Metrolink has had many fatal accidents over the years but the majority have been pedestrian knockdowns and I doubt any of them were widely reported. Secondly the images of this accident scene show a vehicle which appears largely intact. The wheels are still attached and there is no obvious damage visible. I would suggest that this lack of visible crushed metal or shattered glass will have reduced the sensationalist value of the accident as a news story leading to it having the profile in news bulletins that we have witnessed. Only when it became known that people had lost their lives did it receive more reporting priority.

Sorry but that is nonsense. Had it been any other day this story would have been a story high up the agenda on the national news. Look at the Alton Towers accident last year, nobody died then and there wasn't many TV friendly pictures, but it was top story off and on for days.

It was obviously decided that the U.S. Election shouldn't just be the top story, but the only story this morning.

 

[TC60054]

Very tragic for all involved and my best wishes go to those affected. I do not however see the point in making it national news other than scaring the hell out of people in to not using public transport and putting them in cars instead, and then putting every car crash on the national headlines. You could have a separate news paper just to report them all.

I can't really see this scaring people out of using public transport. This is the first major incident on a light rail network since 1959, when a first generation tram caught fire in Glasgow, killing three. We've had second generation tramways in the country since 1992, so twenty four years before a fatal incident on a tram is a very good safety record, and one which should be noted.

It may be the first time that a passenger on board a (second generation) tram has been killed, but it is not the first fatal incident connected with the Tramlink network.

• As noted above, Andrjez Karcz was killed in 2008 when a bus he was a passenger on hit a tram in Croydon. The bus driver was sentenced to four years in prison for causing death by dangerous driving.
• At least one cyclist has been killed when he slipped whilst cycling over the tram tracks on a poorly designed crossing and was then hit by a bus.
• There have been at least four other fatalities involving pedestrians or cyclists being hit by trams.

Sorry, very strenuous wording. You have said exactly what I was supposed to in your opening statement there - indeed there have been numerous other fatalities (mainly through RTCs and the like) on other second generation tramways.

 

[Chris M]

The BTP have stated that the death toll is now 7, presumably the two who were trapped are those who have now died.

Also in their press release is that the driver was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter.
http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13403/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon

09 Nov 2016 17:29
Updated statement on tram derailment - Croydon
British Transport Police officers are continuing to work at the scene of a major incident in Croydon.

Emergency services were called to a tram derailment near Sandilands tram stop at 6.13am this morning.

At least seven people are now confirmed as having died as a result of the incident.

Deputy Chief Constable Adrian Hanstock said: “This is a tragic incident and our hearts and thoughts go out to all those affected.

“When officers arrived on scene this morning shortly after 6am, they were met with a complex and challenging situation.

“Together with our partners from the other emergency services and with support from London resilience agencies, they have worked through the day, and will continue to work throughout the night, at the scene.

“After liaison with the Coroner, we can confirm that at least seven people have lost their lives as a result of this incident.

“Our officers will continue to work tirelessly throughout the evening to formally identify them and provide care and support for their families.

“Identifying those who have died can be a complex and lengthy process and we want to ensure we get this right.

“We expect to be at the scene for at least the next 24 hours, continuing searches and carrying out forensic examinations in support of the investigation into the circumstances, and in order to provide a report for the Coroner.

“Tomorrow, we will assess how and when it is appropriate to recover the tram and remove it from the tracks.

“I want to thank everyone who assisted at the scene, and behind the scenes, in Croydon today.

“In the coming days, we will continue to work alongside the Rail Accident Investigation Branch to establish the circumstances of how this happened.

“At this stage it is too early to speculate on a single factor being the cause of this incident.”

A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody.

 

[J-2739]

It may be the first time that a passenger on board a (second generation) tram has been killed, but it is not the first fatal incident connected with the Tramlink network.

• As noted above, Andrjez Karcz was killed in 2008 when a bus he was a passenger on hit a tram in Croydon. The bus driver was sentenced to four years in prison for causing death by dangerous driving.
• At least one cyclist has been killed when he slipped whilst cycling over the tram tracks on a poorly designed crossing and was then hit by a bus.
• There have been at least four other fatalities involving pedestrians or cyclists being hit by trams.

This is different though. A derailment.

 

[class387]

What a tragic event. Thoughts are with all who are involved.

 

[bnm]

And now the BBC are cutting into the main evening local bulletins with US election coverage. 1832 and they still haven't reported on the major domestic incident today.

Trump won. Bloody move on BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation.

 

[J-2739]

And now the BBC are cutting into the main evening local bulletins with US election coverage. 1832 and they still haven't reported on the major domestic incident today.

Trump won. Bloody move on BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation.

Phones?

 

[QueensCurve]

Surely the 'dead man's handle' is there to stop such events when a driver 'blacks out' as some media sources are reporting?

Perhaps we need to wait for the investigation report.

 

[Antman]

Sorry but that is nonsense. Had it been any other day this story would have been a story high up the agenda on the national news. Look at the Alton Towers accident last year, nobody died then and there wasn't many TV friendly pictures, but it was top story off and on for days.

It was obviously decided that the U.S. Election shouldn't just be the top story, but the only story this morning.

And what would there be to show? The wreckage over and over again and the police cordon? And I can't imagine anybody would have been giving interviews because, what would they have to say? I suspect that even without the US election that coverage would have been much the same?

 

[Chris M]

If the accident scene remains cordoned off overnight then clearly some trams are going to be stranded and unable to return to Therapia Lane. Previously trams have been berthed overnight between Arena and Elmers End with a security presence but obviously trams stranded on the New Addington branch won't be able to get there.

The normal outstabling point is the tunnel between Lloyd Park and Sandilands when the east end of the line is cut off from the depot. The inbound tunnel will obviously form part of the investigation scene and be unavailable, but the outbound tunnel could be used for trams on the New Addington branch if it is possible to isolate the power supply between there and the accident scene (I haven no idea).

 

[Antman]

And now the BBC are cutting into the main evening local bulletins with US election coverage. 1832 and they still haven't reported on the major domestic incident today.

Trump won. Bloody move on BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation.

I am baffled as to what you want them to show you?

 

[reddragon]

ITV London news was 100% Croydon Tram incident

 

[Chris M]

And what would there be to show? The wreckage over and over again and the police cordon? And I can't imagine anybody would have been giving interviews because, what would they have to say? I suspect that even without the US election that coverage would have been much the same?

Well showing short loops of video from the helicopter and of the police cordon is exactly what they would do if this were the top story of the day. However, what people are asking for here is a mention in the 4-minute UK national news segments of the programme and a mention in the news ticker. They are not asking for detailed coverage, just an acknowledgement that it had happened.

 

[Airline Man]

Top news story on the BBC London News.

 

[Antman]

The normal outstabling point is the tunnel between Lloyd Park and Sandilands when the east end of the line is cut off from the depot. The inbound tunnel will obviously form part of the investigation scene and be unavailable, but the outbound tunnel could be used for trams on the New Addington branch if it is possible to isolate the power supply between there and the accident scene (I haven no idea).

Yes that would be the ideal location, failing that Addington Village with a security presence would seem the only alternative?

 

[All Line Rover]

And what would there be to show? The wreckage over and over again and the police cordon? And I can't imagine anybody would have been giving interviews because, what would they have to say? I suspect that even without the US election that coverage would have been much the same?

You have said this already (post #94) and no, it wouldn't. There has been quite comprehensive coverage of heavy rail derailments in the US in the past. The BBC has a habit of fixating on "significant" news stories for an entire day (or more) which people "want" to hear about (repeatedly) and refusing to devote a reasonable amount of time to anything else, one notable example being its coverage of the "royal baby". However, I only wished to highlight in this thread the point that there was a lack of coverage of this incident in the broadcast media. Detailed criticism of the BBC should be confined to a thread in the General Discussion sub-forum.

 

[Zoidberg]

http://media.btp.police.uk/r/13403/updated_statement_on_tram_derailment_-_croydon

Latest from the btp, including the reason the driver was arrested.

For those for whom accessing via links is problematic, here is the statement:

British Transport Police officers are continuing to work at the scene of a major incident in Croydon.

Emergency services were called to a tram derailment near Sandilands tram stop at 6.13am this morning.

At least seven people are now confirmed as having died as a result of the incident.

Deputy Chief Constable Adrian Hanstock said: “This is a tragic incident and our hearts and thoughts go out to all those affected.

“When officers arrived on scene this morning shortly after 6am, they were met with a complex and challenging situation.

“Together with our partners from the other emergency services and with support from London resilience agencies, they have worked through the day, and will continue to work throughout the night, at the scene.

“After liaison with the Coroner, we can confirm that at least seven people have lost their lives as a result of this incident.

“Our officers will continue to work tirelessly throughout the evening to formally identify them and provide care and support for their families.

“Identifying those who have died can be a complex and lengthy process and we want to ensure we get this right.

“We expect to be at the scene for at least the next 24 hours, continuing searches and carrying out forensic examinations in support of the investigation into the circumstances, and in order to provide a report for the Coroner.

“Tomorrow, we will assess how and when it is appropriate to recover the tram and remove it from the tracks.

“I want to thank everyone who assisted at the scene, and behind the scenes, in Croydon today.

“In the coming days, we will continue to work alongside the Rail Accident Investigation Branch to establish the circumstances of how this happened.

“At this stage it is too early to speculate on a single factor being the cause of this incident.”

A 42-year-old man from Beckenham has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter and is currently in police custody

 

[jopsuk]

Regarding news coverage, it was the second story on the short bulletins on BBC 6music from half seven this morning.

 

[Antman]

You have said this already (post #94) and no, it wouldn't. There has been quite comprehensive coverage of heavy rail derailments in the US in the past. The BBC has a habit of fixating on "significant" news stories for an entire day (or more) which people "want" to hear about (repeatedly) and refusing to devote a reasonable amount of time to anything else, one notable example being its coverage of the "royal baby". However, I only wished to highlight in this thread the point that there was a lack of coverage of this incident in the broadcast media. Detailed criticism of the BBC should be confined to a thread in the General Discussion sub-forum.

Well the issue does keep coming up and nobody has explained exactly what they expect to see on their TV screen?

 

[LeylandLen]

I have 2 questions.
1, how many people were on the tram, have BTP said ?

2 whats the seating on these trams ? Longitudinal as on London Overground trains , or more conventional rear/ forward facing ?

Thanks