Croydon Tram Crash

[edwin_m]

Those blue flashing lights where there when I went on the tram a few years ago, I was told they flash warning of Ice so the drivers change their speed.

Not so. See #739.

 

[bramling]

It is because the sun is rising later in the day and setting earlier so it is more likely to be rising or setting when you are travelling, Assuming you are travelling normal commuter hours.

In the tunnels?

 

[matt_world2004]

In the tunnels?

Yes because at some point that train would have been outside a tunnel and on most lines are probably only spending 30 minutes in a tunnel or less.

 

[Caterpillar]

After that video, I wonder how many drivers will shut the blinds from now on?

On the stadler, they don't have blinds to close.
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Sounds like such a simple idea. In theory. But in practice it would soon lead to regular staff shortages on late shift and probably require an enhanced rate of pay to deal with in the longer term. Back in the day when rates of pay were somewhat lower certain "anti-social" shifts would have paid a shift supplement but such things have long since been consolidated into basic pay. And everyone should work their fair share of undesirable turns.

The real answer is for rostering to take much greater account of fatigue as an issue as opposed to seeking to construct rosters in a way that is most financially beneficial to the employer as first priority. Many ways to achieve this of course but you can bet if unions attempt to impose stricter limits on how staff are rostered then the anti-union lobby are soon accusing them of outdated inflexibility. Do we really want to wait until fatigue is identified as a significant factor in an accident?



Just to add that the issue of fatigue also exists among airline flightcrew and very much so in the bus industry.

You are 100% spot on.

The systems and rota pattern are unchanged for 16 years!!
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This video certainly makes you wonder how many of the trams have the CCTV mysteriously 'not working', as on the one that was crashed

Quite a few.

 

[Antman]

Not on the M25 it's not!

Even then there are junctions every so often and a few service stations or in a worst case scenario the hard shoulder but on a tram (or any other public transport for that matter) what do you do if a bout of tiredness comes on?

 

[neonison]

Even then there are junctions every so often and a few service stations or in a worst case scenario the hard shoulder but on a tram (or any other public transport for that matter) what do you do if a bout of tiredness comes on?

Apart from the fact that stopping on the hard shoulder is both illegal and dangerous there must be tens or hundreds of occupations where tiredness can affect more than the life and livelihood of the individual concerned. That is why we see such innovations as automatic emergency braking, adaptive cruise control, AWS, TPWS etc. At least in a tramway setting there are know technologies to mitigate the risks and enough studies going back decades to plan rosters to minimise fatigue.

 

[Antman]

Apart from the fact that stopping on the hard shoulder is both illegal and dangerous there must be tens or hundreds of occupations where tiredness can affect more than the life and livelihood of the individual concerned. That is why we see such innovations as automatic emergency braking, adaptive cruise control, AWS, TPWS etc. At least in a tramway setting there are know technologies to mitigate the risks and enough studies going back decades to plan rosters to minimise fatigue.

Using a hard shoulder in an emergency (ie driver unfit to continue) is not illegal although yes it is potentially dangerous but less so than continuing to drive whilst falling asleep.

 

[neonison]

Using a hard shoulder in an emergency (ie driver unfit to continue) is not illegal although yes it is potentially dangerous but less so than continuing to drive whilst falling asleep.

In a genuine medical emergency it's permitted to stop but in the case of tiredness you must proceed to the next junction or service area. If you can safely make it to the hard shoulder then you can wind down the windows, turn up the radio and manage a few minutes to the next junction.

 

[Antman]

In a genuine medical emergency it's permitted to stop but in the case of tiredness you must proceed to the next junction or service area. If you can safely make it to the hard shoulder then you can wind down the windows, turn up the radio and manage a few minutes to the next junction.

And a driver falling asleep is a genuine emergency. Winding down windows and turning up radios does little to alleviate tiredness.

 

[edwin_m]

Even then there are junctions every so often and a few service stations or in a worst case scenario the hard shoulder but on a tram (or any other public transport for that matter) what do you do if a bout of tiredness comes on?

I believe all the termini on Tramlink and other tramways allow a crippled tram can be refuged until it can be moved away. This may be something as simple as a double-length platform. So if essential a service could be cancelled and parked up there until another driver could be found.

 

[jon0844]

And a driver falling asleep is a genuine emergency. Winding down windows and turning up radios does little to alleviate tiredness.

That's very true, but I expect if you decided to stop then you'd instantly become more alert as you looked for signs, got to the exit and then looked for somewhere to rest.

The danger is doing any of that and thinking you can carry on. On a road with nothing eventful happening, that's deadly.

However, a normal driver might decide to stop because they have no deadline. What about a lorry driver, or tram driver, each of whom could get into trouble for stopping? A depot refusing delivery of a load, or a tram causing delays?

 

[bramling]

Even then there are junctions every so often and a few service stations or in a worst case scenario the hard shoulder but on a tram (or any other public transport for that matter) what do you do if a bout of tiredness comes on?

On London Underground, the normal procedure would to be radio the line controller, who would arrange for someone to ride with the driver. Ideally this would be a manager, even more ideally one who is licensed to drive the train if necessary (albeit this would require the train to be emptied). If this can't be done then a member of station staff would ride with the driver until such time as he can be relieved. All this of course relies on staff presence and availability, which is not something tram systems are generally blessed with.

The only other option if a driver can't continue is to shuffle things round such that a driver from another service takes over, with a continual shuffle until a spare driver can be injected into the mix somehow, or a service can be stabled somewhere to that the number of drivers once again equals the number of vehicles in service. Needless to say this is bound to cause varying amounts of delay & disruption depending on the exact scenario chosen.

 

[bnm]

And a driver falling asleep is a genuine emergency. Winding down windows and turning up radios does little to alleviate tiredness.

All motoring organisations, ROSPA, the police, say you should not stop on the hard shoulder if tired. It is only to be used as an absolute last resort in an emergency, or when directed to do so by the police, Highways Agency or signs. Stopping in an emergency you should immediately leave your vehicle and call for assistance. Not sit in your car, compose yourself, or have 40 winks.

Tired on a motorway? Windows open, stereo volume up, leave at the next exit or services. Best advice is not to undertake a motorway journey when tired in the first place. Or, on a long journey, take regular breaks.

 

[Antman]

All motoring organisations, ROSPA, the police, say you should not stop on the hard shoulder if tired. It is only to be used as an absolute last resort in an emergency, or when directed to do so by the police, Highways Agency or signs. Stopping in an emergency you should immediately leave your vehicle and call for assistance. Not sit in your car, compose yourself, or have 40 winks.

Tired on a motorway? Windows open, stereo volume up, leave at the next exit or services. Best advice is not to undertake a motorway journey when tired in the first place. Or, on a long journey, take regular breaks.

Easier said than done, you may have felt fine when you commence the journey.
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I believe all the termini on Tramlink and other tramways allow a crippled tram can be refuged until it can be moved away. This may be something as simple as a double-length platform. So if essential a service could be cancelled and parked up there until another driver could be found.

There are cripple sidings at Elmers End and Wimbledon, Beckenham Junction and New Addington have two platforms.

 

[neonison]

And a driver falling asleep is a genuine emergency. Winding down windows and turning up radios does little to alleviate tiredness.

If you have fallen asleep then it is (for everyone) but if you need to sleep it isn't a genuine emergency and it's illegal to stop on the hard shoulder to take a nap in any circumstances.

http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/fatigue/road-accidents/

I am not suggested that winding down windows and turning up the radio is a solution to tiredness, it isn't, it's an emergency response. Try reading what I wrote - it is sufficient to get you to the next junction - an average of 4.51 miles on the UK motorway network. If you are capable of reaching the hard shoulder then you are capable of taking some immediate measures and reaching the next junction.

I am saying no more.
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The danger is doing any of that and thinking you can carry on. On a road with nothing eventful happening, that's deadly.

Exactly. I am not advocating that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easier said than done, you may have felt fine when you commence the journey.

Stopping on the hard shoulder is incredibly dangerous. You should only do so if your vehicle physically cannot proceed safely (or you believe it to have a fault that would prevent it proceeding safely, e.g. you think you have a flat tyre or something coming loose and need to check it), or if you are so ill that you require an ambulance. The chance of dying in a collision with another vehicle is significant.

The distance between motorway junctions/services is relatively short. It is physically impossible to go from "not at all tired" to "can't stay awake" in the time that would elapse between one junction and the next, except in the extreme circumstances of a multiple-hour closure.

If you are tired, don't start your journey. If you regret your decision, leave the motorway at the first opportunity, park in a safe place and sleep.

 

[Antman]

Stopping on the hard shoulder is incredibly dangerous. You should only do so if your vehicle physically cannot proceed safely (or you believe it to have a fault that would prevent it proceeding safely, e.g. you think you have a flat tyre or something coming loose and need to check it), or if you are so ill that you require an ambulance. The chance of dying in a collision with another vehicle is significant.

The distance between motorway junctions/services is relatively short. It is physically impossible to go from "not at all tired" to "can't stay awake" in the time that would elapse between one junction and the next, except in the extreme circumstances of a multiple-hour closure.

If you are tired, don't start your journey. If you regret your decision, leave the motorway at the first opportunity, park in a safe place and sleep.

We have already done all this, problem is that you might not have felt tired at the start of the journey just as the Tramlink driver in the video probably didn't feel tired at the start of his journey.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think if I was a tram driver who suddenly felt very tired I would get out of the cab at the next stop (usually only 1-2 mins away) and walk to the back of the tram and back - on the pretext (if needed) of checking something/anything. That will freshen you up enough for a little longer or, if you are actually unwell, you could call for assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have already done all this, problem is that you might not have felt tired at the start of the journey just as the Tramlink driver in the video probably didn't feel tired at the start of his journey.

As I said, as soon as you realise you are tired, you pull off the motorway at the first legal opportunity, park up and have a kip. Tiredness doesn't happen "just like that", and junctions are rarely *that* far apart (though there are exceptions).

A tram driver may have felt pressured not to report it immediately because he might become subject to disciplinary action, perhaps?

 

[Zoidberg]

...

The distance between motorway junctions/services is relatively short. It is physically impossible to go from "not at all tired" to "can't stay awake" in the time that would elapse between one junction and the next, except in the extreme circumstances of a multiple-hour closure.

If you are tired, don't start your journey. If you regret your decision, leave the motorway at the first opportunity, park in a safe place and sleep.

As I said, as soon as you realise you are tired, you pull off the motorway at the first legal opportunity, park up and have a kip. Tiredness doesn't happen "just like that", and junctions are rarely *that* far apart (though there are exceptions).

...

Indeed. One does not suddenly get into the position of nodding off as shown in the tram video.

 

[Clip]

Even then there are junctions every so often and a few service stations or in a worst case scenario the hard shoulder but on a tram (or any other public transport for that matter) what do you do if a bout of tiredness comes on?

A bout of tiredness? When a driver books on for work they are declaring that they are fit and well for work and not suffering from fatigue. If someone is having a sudden bout of tiredness then they have not had enough rest and should not have booked on to work

 

[PermitToTravel]

As I said, as soon as you realise you are tired, you pull off the motorway at the first legal opportunity, park up and have a kip. Tiredness doesn't happen "just like that", and junctions are rarely *that* far apart (though there are exceptions).

Yes, this. Stopping on the hard shoulder to get out and walk a hundred metres or so, even, is almost acceptable - but stopping on the hard shoulder makes you very considerably more likely to have a lorry in your boot than most people would expect. Doing so and staying in your car really is an incredibly dangerous thing to do.

 

[exile]

It is physically impossible to go from "not at all tired" to "can't stay awake" in the time that would elapse between one junction and the next, except in the extreme circumstances of a multiple-hour closure..

Not sure I accept this. I have had times when sleepiness has come on very quickly indeed.

 

[MikeWh]

The distance between motorway junctions/services is relatively short. It is physically impossible to go from "not at all tired" to "can't stay awake" in the time that would elapse between one junction and the next, except in the extreme circumstances of a multiple-hour closure.

If you are tired, don't start your journey. If you regret your decision, leave the motorway at the first opportunity, park in a safe place and sleep.

So you've just passed junction 2 on the M26 and you're fine. The next junction is 6 on the M25 some 19 miles away. Normally fine but there's been an accident at the Gatwick turn-off and traffic is soon stationary. How tired could you be after 4 hours at an average ~5mph?

 

[Phil.]

We've gone awfully off topic here.

 

[Robertj21a]

So you've just passed junction 2 on the M26 and you're fine. The next junction is 6 on the M25 some 19 miles away. Normally fine but there's been an accident at the Gatwick turn-off and traffic is soon stationary. How tired could you be after 4 hours at an average ~5mph?

Not much point in talking about such extremes, it's simply not sufficiently relevant to the tram crash. Driving for 4 hours at about 5 mph suggests that the traffic is stationary much of the time or, at the very worst, if you HAD to pull over on to the hard shoulder, then a HGV is not going to ram you at 60 mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I accept this. I have had times when sleepiness has come on very quickly indeed.

I've had it come on during a long journey (and stopped for a rest as a result). I've not gone from "wide awake with no hint of tiredness" to "eyes closing" in one junction distance.
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So you've just passed junction 2 on the M26 and you're fine. The next junction is 6 on the M25 some 19 miles away. Normally fine but there's been an accident at the Gatwick turn-off and traffic is soon stationary. How tired could you be after 4 hours at an average ~5mph?

See the part of my post that you quoted about extreme circumstances such as multi-hour closures. These make the news but are surprisingly rare - I've never been stuck on a motorway long enough to be able to get out and walk around. And traffic sat-nav, which I always use on long journeys even if I know the way, makes it even less likely for this to actually catch you.

 

[jon0844]

traffic sat-nav, which I always use on long journeys even if I know the way, makes it even less likely for this to actually catch you.

Yes, if you use a decent system then it will know about jams even on country lanes once a few drivers are slowed down. It's bloody impressive how accurate traffic monitoring is now everyone has a mobile phone or two in their car!

My wife used to wonder why I turned on navigation for a simple drive that I've done a million times, and now she realises that it's so I will never be stuck in a jam again (no matter how well I think I know the 'usual' hotspots). Unless an accident happens right in front of me, I'm not getting stuck on a motorway anytime soon*.

* Well obviously now I am.

 

[GodAtum]

I have seen more trams with 2 drivers lately.

 

[bramling]

Yes, if you use a decent system then it will know about jams even on country lanes once a few drivers are slowed down. It's bloody impressive how accurate traffic monitoring is now everyone has a mobile phone or two in their car!

My wife used to wonder why I turned on navigation for a simple drive that I've done a million times, and now she realises that it's so I will never be stuck in a jam again (no matter how well I think I know the 'usual' hotspots). Unless an accident happens right in front of me, I'm not getting stuck on a motorway anytime soon*.

* Well obviously now I am.

I take it you don't drive in certain parts of Hertfordshire at certain times? If you did you would find that *every* route is jammed to at least some extent. Too many people and not enough space in certain parts of the country.