Crush-loading and bicycles on the Elizabeth line

[All Line Rover]

Much as I like bicycles, I am frustrated with the number of full-size bicycles being conveyed on the Elizabeth line during peak hours - e.g. around 6pm. Aren't they supposed to be prohibited between approximately 4pm and 7pm?

This evening (a Tuesday), attempting to travel west from Ealing Broadway on one of the handful of trains to Reading, the train was crush-loaded on arrival. Multiple people attempted to unload full-size bicycles from the train onto the (also crowded) platform, delaying boarding. Some full-size bikes remained on board, limiting space. When I attempted to board (an experience that reminded me of Tokyo), some passengers seemed offended at the prospect of crowding into the available space in the centre of the carriage. What were they expecting? This is not the Victoria line, with a train every 60 seconds. Long-distance passengers cannot simply "skip a train" to make space for the hordes travelling to destinations such as Southall and Hayes.

I don't use the Elizabeth line regularly. Is it, genuinely, already this over-crowded? Are full-size bicycles a common problem? Do stations need more platform staff to both guard against prohibited objects, and manage boarding to ensure crush-loading is achieved (a la Toyko) in a way that won't result in asphyxiation? On this "new" railway, why aren't there live indicators on the platforms demarcating the quieter carriages before the next train arrives?

I don't envy the Elizabeth line drivers, who seem to have a more difficult time trying to close all train doors than drivers on the most overcrowded tube lines experienced pre-Covid.

 

[jon81uk]

TfL state that non-folding bikes should not be on the train between 16.00 and 19.00 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366
Realistically if they aren't seen carrying it through a gate-line they won't get stopped though.

Although I have been on the DLR (where the same peak hours rules apply above ground, but no cycles at all can go into Bank) and the train was held at Shadwell until the bike has got off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL state that non-folding bikes should not be on the train between 16.00 and 19.00 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366
Realistically if they aren't seen carrying it through a gate-line they won't get stopped though.

This is one of the many issues with moving away from the system of the wide gate being staff-controlled so they can stop people taking bicycles in when not permitted. There are many other issues, such as difficulty finding staff for assistance as they're not always in the same place.

 

[Malaxa]

Where does the OP imagine the unfolded bicycles have entered the EL system?
I have seen electric scooters on the EL [at permitted times and directions for unfolded bicycles] and they are forbidden. But, as we all know, private scooters are illegal on the road anyway [lol!] hence they should not get anywhere near a railway station....and presumably that's the reason for the universal rail ban.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen electric scooters on the EL [at permitted times and directions for unfolded bicycles] and they are forbidden. But, as we all know, private scooters are illegal on the road anyway [lol!] hence they should not get anywhere near a railway station....and presumably that's the reason for the universal rail ban.

The reason for them being banned on TfL services and some TOCs is that there have been too many cases of the cheap Chinese batteries going up in flames. It happened once already with "hoverboards". The decision was made after a spate of such fires.

They're illegal to ride on the road, but it's not illegal to purchase one and carry it home for use on private land. However it IS banned to do that on TfL services.

 

[Malaxa]

Chinese [I imagine] batteries are also found in e-bicycles and wheelchairs too. And they also catch fire as a brief internet search will show.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chinese [I imagine] batteries are also found in e-bicycles and wheelchairs too. And they also catch fire as a brief internet search will show.

Most e-bikes and wheelchairs sold are from reputable brands with decent quality control on the batteries. Just as if you buy an Anker power bank it'll contain a Chinese battery but a fire is less likely than if you buy a really cheap one from Aliexpress.com direct from China.

The risk of an e-bike or wheelchair going up isn't zero but it's much lower. Plus with wheelchairs the risk is something that needs to be taken to ensure accessibility - nobody NEEDS to take an e-scooter on a train, they are mostly substitutes for pedestrianism due to their low speed. (That's not to say I'm anti-scooter, I think they're a great idea, but need to be regulated properly).

 

[i4n]

If the rules

TfL state that non-folding bikes should not be on the train between 16.00 and 19.00 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366
Realistically if they aren't seen carrying it through a gate-line they won't get stopped though.

Although I have been on the DLR (where the same peak hours rules apply above ground, but no cycles at all can go into Bank) and the train was held at Shadwell until the bike has got of

If it says "should not" there's nothing that can be done, that's a pleasantry but untimatley doesn't mean anything. "Shall not" on the other hand...

 

[jon81uk]

If the rules

If it says "should not" there's nothing that can be done, that's a pleasantry but untimatley doesn't mean anything. "Shall not" on the other hand...

It states what times they are allowed. The use of "should not" is my wording not theirs. TfL say bikes are allowed before 16.00 and after 19.00 but I wrote the times they ae not allowed as it is simpler phrasing.
But it would be the railway byelaws that any action comes under.

 

[stuu]

There was a Deliveroo rider and bike on a peak evening train the other day, got off at TCR

 

[Benjwri]

The reason for them being banned on TfL services and some TOCs is that there have been too many cases of the cheap Chinese batteries going up in flames. It happened once already with "hoverboards". The decision was made after a spate of such fires.

They're illegal to ride on the road, but it's not illegal to purchase one and carry it home for use on private land. However it IS banned to do that on TfL services.

Part of the reason for the ban is to stop them being stolen as well, or distributed across the city. I believe at least in some places, such as in the Bristol area, it was requested by the scheme operators that they be banned, since people used trains to get across the city, which resulted in the scooters being in locations that didn't match demand, or being taken out the trial area and effectively stolen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the reason for the ban is to stop them being stolen as well, or distributed across the city. I believe at least in some places, such as in the Bristol area, it was requested by the scheme operators that they be banned, since people used trains to get across the city, which resulted in the scooters being in locations that didn't match demand, or being taken out the trial area and effectively stolen.

That's slightly separate and relates only to hire scooters (which are manufactured by reputable companies and are so unlikely to experience battery fires). It's likely these would be banned for this reason even if private ones were permitted.

 

[FOH]

Although I have been on the DLR (where the same peak hours rules apply above ground, but no cycles at all can go into Bank) and the train was held at Shadwell until the bike has got off.

Similarly I was on the Jubilee line recently where the driver refused to move the train on from Finchley road into London until the cyclist he'd seen boarding got off again.

 

[Malaxa]

TfL state that non-folding bikes should not be on the train between 16.00 and 19.00 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport?intcmp=2366
Realistically if they aren't seen carrying it through a gate-line they won't get stopped though.

Although I have been on the DLR (where the same peak hours rules apply above ground, but no cycles at all can go into Bank) and the train was held at Shadwell until the bike has got off.

The TfL link strangely doesn't mention the Bank exclusion from DLR cycle carriage.

 

[ELfan]

The TfL link strangely doesn't mention the Bank exclusion from DLR cycle carriage.

I agree it should be mentioned in the text, the map is quite clear though.

Unfolded bikes have been a problem going into Paddington for a while and I don't understand why they haven't been clamped down on as demand has returned post-pandemic.

 

[adamedwards]

The problem with bikes on trains is there are plenty of places with ungated unstaffed access to trains. For example, Thameslink has a cycle ban into London in the morning peak, but I would regularly see this breached at Hendon where there are no barriers or platform staff. Contrast this with St Albans where I went through the barrier with bike to platform 1 to get a coffee and was challenged by the platform staff. I was going north, but the coffee was on the southbound platform, so I was ok.

So how do you enforce a system if the monitoring is so poor it makes it unenforceable? It would suggest the Elizabeth line needs barriers at all stations and staffing at all times on the platform. Does that in reality happen?

(As an aside I was once challenged boarding a GNER train at Edinburgh as clearly people with folding bikes don't travel first class! I was directed to Standard until I produced my ticket. It was in the days when there were bargin 1st class tickets to be had and I'd got one.)

 

[geoffk]

I think the peak-hour ban on non-folding bikes only applies in London. Is that correct? If we are going to have fewer and/or shorter trains in other major cities the ban might need to be extended to Birmingham, Manchester etc.

 

[ashkeba]

I think the peak-hour ban on non-folding bikes only applies in London. Is that correct? If we are going to have fewer and/or shorter trains in other major cities the ban might need to be extended to Birmingham, Manchester etc.

There are other bans, including Cambridge and Ely in the morning peak.

 

[geoffk]

There are other bans, including Cambridge and Ely in the morning peak.

I can understand Cambridge being included.

 

[adamedwards]

Cambridge will have the same problem of people with unfoldable cycles able to board at say Foxton as there is no means to stop them.
The real answer ought to be a post Covid repurposing space to allow peak time bike carriage, given the reductions in commuting. We could call the space a guards van!

 

[paul1609]

I think the peak-hour ban on non-folding bikes only applies in London. Is that correct? If we are going to have fewer and/or shorter trains in other major cities the ban might need to be extended to Birmingham, Manchester etc.

Bikes have also been banned on peak trains to Brighton both mainline and coastway for some years.

 

[ashkeba]

Bikes have also been banned on peak trains to Brighton both mainline and coastway for some years.

Only Southern? It's only the London timing which causes a slightly late evening peak ban towards Brighton in https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/on-board/bringing-a-bike

Which also means boarding Thames link at Foxton to go to Cambridge in the mourning peak appears to be allowed, unlike from stations on the West Anglia. Very odd!

 

[30907]

Which also means boarding Thames link at Foxton to go to Cambridge in the mourning peak appears to be allowed, unlike from stations on the West Anglia. Very odd!

Not when you consider the capacity of a class 700

 

[modernrail]

So we are cutting services and train lengths because of a lack of demand whilst trains are overcrowded and there is absolutely no space for bikes.

Doesn’t quite add up does it.

 

[Horizon22]

So we are cutting services and train lengths because of a lack of demand whilst trains are overcrowded and there is absolutely no space for bikes.

Doesn’t quite add up does it.

Eh? Not on the Elizabeth line. The issue being compliance at the gateline with non-folded bikes. I’ve not seen it as a huge issue, but it does exist.

And to answer the OP, yes the services in the peak are this crowded; they always were departing Liverpool St and Paddington from 1730-1815 anyway, and add in the ease of travel of through-running, less changing / more direct and fastest journeys via the alternatives / and they’re even busier and currently considerably above the forecasted revenue & passenger number expectations for this time of year.

 

[modernrail]

I am just back from Barcelona and am a cyclist (actually I am just a human) who hates taking his bike on UK trains because the spaces are literally designed to cause friction with other users. Many trains on the continent just have nice big empty carriages for bikes and buggies etc etc.

I am frankly really confused about what is going on on passenger loadings. We have a a Government bleating on about crisis and the need to cut cut cut and then we seem to have plenty of very busy trains.

Maybe the problem is really isolated to outer suburban to inner suburban. It feels to me like this is the stuff that has really dropped off. SWT may be the very best example and numbers at Waterloo might support this.

Anyway the relevance for bikes is that I thought this could be a real opportunity to get rid of the friction and maybe even the peak time restrictions by taking seats out of whole carriages.

On the Elizabeth Line I would go for the middle carriages because of the way the exits are configured in the central section.

That might (I am not saying definitely would) give space for surburban standing plus bikes plus buggies plus luggage and all the other things that don’t have space on UK trains. It might also entice people within cycling distance of stations on outer suburban lines to cycle in and cycle at the other end.

Our standard configuration seems set to outer suburban to inner suburban and I think that is where a lot of the friction comes from because it is all about cramming in seats.

The other thought on all this, maybe not as relevant to the Lizzy if it really is full from end to end, is whether the answer to the DfT is not cutting services but them running short. Does three bridges or Guilford need the level of service it did? Probably not but Clapham Junction probably does.

 

[Malaxa]

I'm still struggling to understand where the alleged westward-bound bicycles at Ealing Broadway have come from. Of course, going through a gate doesn't indicate one's direction of travel.
At Paddington there are platform staff as well as barrier staff and I've seen an e-scooter owner being challenged there on the platform.

The only intermediate station is Acton Main Line. Is this ungated?

Have these rogue cyclists come from Abbey Wood/Shenfield branches agaist the flow and "stayed on"? I doubt it.

Incidentally, e-scooters can be carried through barries discretely, unlike bicycles.

 

[Benjwri]

The only intermediate station is Acton Main Line. Is this ungated?

Acton Main Line is gated, and constantly staffed, although at certain times the gates are left open while they are on breaks, but doubt it is the source of the bikes.

Incidentally, e-scooters can be carried through barries discretely, unlike bicycles.

I wouldn't say bikes can't be carried discretely. In large flows of people they are probably quite hard for staff to notice, and it isn't impossible to get them through standard width barriers.

 

[cadder toad]

Is it not somewhat incredible that a new railway does not have the capacity to accomodate cyclists at all times? If trains are to be part of the solution to climate change, and to reduce car use then they need to cater for those who use bikes as part of their journey to work. My own observations suggest that proximity to a railway station is not a major factor when deciding workplace locations. Taking a bike on a train at peak times seems to me essential to reduce car use. The train is only one link in a person's journey. We willingly provide massive car parks at suburban stations yet cannot provide adequate bike space on a new railway.

 

[Falcon1200]

If trains are to be part of the solution to climate change, and to reduce car use then they need to cater for those who use bikes as part of their journey to work.

Are there really that many people who need a bike at both ends of their commute, rather than just to the station nearest their home? Where BTW there certainly should be adequate, safe and covered bike storage space. And it is worth pointing out that the Elizabeth is, already, an extremely busy railway, in the central section at least, more akin to the Underground than a main line. Plus, how would extra capacity for bikes be provided anyway, if not at the expense of the far greater number of non-bike accompanied passengers?