Curtailing Bentham Line services at Carnforth

[30907]

Because the platforms on the fasts were removed in the 80s.

Done IIRC as part of the 1975 electrification to allow higher speeds on the main line.

 

[edwin_m]

Because the platforms on the fasts were removed in the 80s.

It was before that - I think on electrification in 1974. The removed platforms were on the WCML north of the junction, so it's impossible for a train to/from the north to call there. Probably they assumed that no such trains would need to call, as Carnforth would be served by trains to/from Barrow and Leeds. But yes a journey between those lines and the north involves a double back to Lancaster.

 

[BrianW]

Because the platforms on the fasts were removed in the 80s.

Thanks ... but why was that? Was no-one wishing to go from the Barrow line to Carlisle via Carnforth- it 's quicker that way today even changing at Lancaster with a half-hour wait there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks ... but why was that? Was no-one wishing to go from the Barrow line to Carlisle via Carnforth- it 's quicker that way today even changing at Lancaster with a half-hour wait there.

Someone upthread mentioned that it allowed the fast lines to be slewed slightly to allow the linespeed to be increased a bit. And back then I suspect people doubted the Cumbrian Coast and Bentham lines would survive very long.

 

[BrianW]

Someone upthread mentioned that it allowed the fast lines to be slewed slightly to allow the linespeed to be increased a bit. And back then I suspect people doubted the Cumbrian Coast and Bentham lines would survive very long.

Thanks. I wonder if there would be any call for platform and stopping reinstatement (being part of the now 'Blue Wall') ??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I wonder if there would be any call for platform and stopping reinstatement (being part of the now 'Blue Wall') ??

The Blue Wall?

I doubt it, the doubleback via Lancaster doesn't take long, and you don't want two IC stops that close to each other.

 

[30907]

The Blue Wall?

I doubt it, the doubleback via Lancaster doesn't take long, and you don't want two IC stops that close to each other.

Took me a moment - think the Blue refers to the political colour of much of the North?

 

[BrianW]

The Blue Wall?

I doubt it, the doubleback via Lancaster doesn't take long, and you don't want two IC stops that close to each other.

Former 'Red wall' of then Labour seats in Parliament now Conservative, incl Barrow, Workington, Keighley.

 

[PR1Berske]

Lancaster and Fleetwood - Labour hold
Morecambe and Lunesdale - Conservative hold
Westmorland and Lonsdale - Liberal Democrats hold

It's not quite a solid blue wall around these parts, granted

 

[Ianno87]

Someone upthread mentioned that it allowed the fast lines to be slewed slightly to allow the linespeed to be increased a bit. And back then I suspect people doubted the Cumbrian Coast and Bentham lines would survive very long.

Not sure about the Cumbian Coast when BR went to the trouble of wiring a short distance of the route towards Barrow into the platforms at Carnforth to permit engine changes and run-rounds - the mast codes are even (optimistically) 'GB', suggesting the 'Barrow' branch of the WCML (G).


I suspect the main line platforms were just removed due to low passenger numbers, with anyone needing to travel north having the option of heading via Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure about the Cumbian Coast when BR went to the trouble of wiring a short distance of the route towards Barrow into the platforms at Carnforth to permit engine changes and run-rounds - the mast codes are even (optimistically) 'GB', suggesting the 'Barrow' branch of the WCML (G).


I suspect the main line platforms were just removed due to low passenger numbers, with anyone needing to travel north having the option of heading via Lancaster.

Very handy it is too - I was stood waiting for a train last year while a loco hauled came into the Lancaster bound platform then put it's pantograph up.

 

[Ianno87]

Very handy it is too - I was stood waiting for a train last year while a loco hauled came into the Lancaster bound platform then put it's pantograph up.

I wager if the electrification had been done a decade later BR wouldn't have included it - look at the ECML particularly north of York) and how not all 'bells and whistles' were wired (e.g. run offs, bay platforms etc)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wager if the electrification had been done a decade later BR wouldn't have included it - look at the ECML particularly north of York) and how not all 'bells and whistles' were wired (e.g. run offs, bay platforms etc)

One of the biggest pains in the backside there is not having electrified the turnback used by the Chathill Flyer, which means a DMU has to be used on a route that is, other than the turnback, wholly under the wires. Not only that, but a path-eating 75mph one.

 

[Ianno87]

One of the biggest pains in the backside there is not having electrified the turnback used by the Chathill Flyer, which means a DMU has to be used on a route that is, other than the turnback, wholly under the wires. Not only that, but a path-eating 75mph one.

OT, but I think it's the turnback at Morpeth that's not electrified. The Chathill terminator uses electrified loops further north.

BR *probably* applied the logic that it would be a lone EMU local service in an otherwise world of diesel to Sunderland, Hexham etc which had little prospect of AC wiring (and probably still do).

 

[yorksrob]

I wager if the electrification had been done a decade later BR wouldn't have included it - look at the ECML particularly north of York) and how not all 'bells and whistles' were wired (e.g. run offs, bay platforms etc)

From what I recall, this is only a comparatively short stub of the platform that's electrified. Previously I'd always wondered why OLE tended to continue for a short distance past junctions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what I recall, this is only a comparatively short stub of the platform that's electrified. Previously I'd always wondered why OLE tended to continue for a short distance past junctions.

The main reason for doing that is so as not to cause problems if an EMU or electric locomotive is accidentally misrouted, I think?

 

[Ianno87]

From what I recall, this is only a comparatively short stub of the platform that's electrified. Previously I'd always wondered why OLE tended to continue for a short distance past junctions.

The Down platform (and loop around the back) are electrified right through to the headshunt towards Barrow beyond the end of the access into Steamtown/West Coast Railways (i.e. so you can bring a train in and then release the AC loco off the front)

The Up platform is only wired for its southern half - i.e. an AC loco can be brought onto the front from the south.

 

[yorksrob]

The Down platform (and loop around the back) are electrified right through to the headshunt towards Barrow beyond the end of the access into Steamtown/West Coast Railways (i.e. so you can bring a train in and then release the AC loco off the front)

The Up platform is only wired for its southern half - i.e. an AC loco can be brought onto the front from the south.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks ... but why was that? Was no-one wishing to go from the Barrow line to Carlisle via Carnforth- it 's quicker that way today even changing at Lancaster with a half-hour wait there.

I could be wrong, but as I remember it, the remaining wayside stations like Shap & Tebay and services north of Lancaster had been axed before the end of steam in August 68. As BR had no intention of stopping inter-city trains at Carnforth, the platforms were considered redundant. But I've read - perhaps in these pages - there was an unseemly hurry to remove the platforms, well before electrification, which was done in 73-74 for switch on in 74 May, IIRC.

 

[edwin_m]

I could be wrong, but as I remember it, the remaining wayside stations like Shap & Tebay and services north of Lancaster had been axed before the end of steam in August 68. As BR had no intention of stopping inter-city trains at Carnforth, the platforms were considered redundant. But I've read - perhaps in these pages - there was an unseemly hurry to remove the platforms, well before electrification, which was done in 73-74 for switch on in 74 May, IIRC.

I think in those days Windermere was only a shuttle from Oxenholme too, so there was nothing else going north that could plausibly stop at Carnforth.

 

[BigCj34]

Going from the Furness line north Cumbria / Scotland via Lancaster is not a huge deal, though the connections can be long but travelling from the Furness line to the Lakes line is a non-starter time wise.

Having through platforms in Carnforth could be handy for enhancing local journeys. Services running from at least Lancaster to Windermere could call there to allow an easy journey from Carnforth to the Lakes Line, as well as easy interchange from the Furness line.

While Avanti services are unlikely to call at Carnforth, TPE services could call there as well or maybe more Oxenholme - Windermere Northern shuttle services could be extended to Lancaster to allow interchange at Carnforth for the Furness line. However those are run by Sprinters which could bottleneck the WCML.

While Scotland interchanges may be better left to Lancaster, Carnforth could be a better interchange for the Lakes and Yorkshire.

 

[randyrippley]

Thanks ... but why was that? Was no-one wishing to go from the Barrow line to Carlisle via Carnforth- it 's quicker that way today even changing at Lancaster with a half-hour wait there.

Why? For the same reason so many WCML stations in the area were closed: to remove holdups on the line. Just between Lancaster and Carlisle there are something like fourteen closed stations

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going from the Furness line north Cumbria / Scotland via Lancaster is not a huge deal, though the connections can be long but travelling from the Furness line to the Lakes line is a non-starter time wise.

I've done it thought I wasn't in a hurry! During the day the bus probably makes more sense.

 

[Halish Railway]

TPE services could call there as well or maybe more Oxenholme - Windermere Northern shuttle services could be extended to Lancaster to allow interchange at Carnforth for the Furness line. However those are run by Sprinters which could bottleneck the WCML...

This is fortunately no longer the case aside from the irregular substitution - They are now operated by 195/1s. You may actually have a good idea as the Lakes line services are supposedly going to be switched over the battery operated 331s, therefore meaning that a greater proportion of their journey will be under the wires.

As a result of this Northern could run a consistent hourly Manchester Airport to Barrow service, moreover, if these Lakes line services have a good connection to the Bentham line services (at Lancaster or preferably Carnforth if the platforms were rebuilt), it would make journeys from West Yorkshire to the Lake District FAR easier and would mean that you wouldn’t need to drive along the A65 which I just had the displeasure of driving along today.

 

[randyrippley]

The main reason for doing that is so as not to cause problems if an EMU or electric locomotive is accidentally misrouted, I think?

The Carnforth platforms have in the past been used regularly as a turnback for Lancaster terminators and when there's engineering work to the north. At times its been used for rail replacement bus connections as road access is much better than Lancaster - with electrics terminating at Carnforth

 

[randyrippley]

Going from the Furness line north Cumbria / Scotland via Lancaster is not a huge deal, though the connections can be long but travelling from the Furness line to the Lakes line is a non-starter time wise.

Having through platforms in Carnforth could be handy for enhancing local journeys. Services running from at least Lancaster to Windermere could call there to allow an easy journey from Carnforth to the Lakes Line, as well as easy interchange from the Furness line.

While Avanti services are unlikely to call at Carnforth, TPE services could call there as well or maybe more Oxenholme - Windermere Northern shuttle services could be extended to Lancaster to allow interchange at Carnforth for the Furness line. However those are run by Sprinters which could bottleneck the WCML.
r
While Scotland interchanges may be better left to Lancaster, Carnforth could be a better interchange for the Lakes and Yorkshire.

Is there a market? Stagecoach have the market pretty much tied up with the 555 Lancaster - Keswick and 6/6A Barrow-Kendal services
TPE actually ran some Barrow-Windermere via Lancaster services and they never seemed to have many stay on at the reversal

 

[BigCj34]

Barrow to Windermere would be comfortably beaten by bus, but journey times to Kendal could be faster by rail.

The X6 does run hourly but buses to Windermere are less frequent and end at around 6pm.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Barrow to Windermere would be comfortably beaten by bus, but journey times to Kendal could be faster by rail.

Done Windermere towards Barrow by bus on a Lakes Day Ranger ticket once. Admittedly was quicker than schlepping down by train to Lancaster and back out again, but comfortable it wasn't. Bailed out at Ulverston.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think in those days Windermere was only a shuttle from Oxenholme too, so there was nothing else going north that could plausibly stop at Carnforth.

Yes. I think that's true too, except for one morning service north and, presumably, a return working south in the evening. I think that train worked in from either LAncaster or Preston.

According to Wikipedia, local services north of Lancaster ceased in MAy 68, so my memory seems to be correct (for once ! )

 

[30907]

Yes. I think that's true too, except for one morning service north and, presumably, a return working south in the evening. I think that train worked in from either LAncaster or Preston.

According to Wikipedia, local services north of Lancaster ceased in MAy 68, so my memory seems to be correct (for once ! )

I haven't got a timetable for the 68-74 period, but I'd bet there were very few trains calling at Carnforth on the main line. Certainly after electrification there was only a handful of Class 2 services north of Carnforth (Mk1s with cl 81-85).