Cyclists - your experiences on the road

[Jonny]

Fairly low. But there's also the question of "feel" as a pedestrian. 20s are mostly about shifting the balance in favour of the pedestrian, though they also benefit cyclists by making them the same speed (and usually faster acceleration) as the motor vehicles. It's not much to ask for cyclists to rein in their aggressive approach (cycling over 20mph in an urban area is definitely aggressive, London is terrible for it) in order to enjoy the benefits.

We need a massive change in our urban road use culture, and that includes towards a more Dutch approach to utility cycling - that is, riding a sit up and beg type bike at 10-15mph in normal clothes on a safe, segregated facility, not riding an aggressive road bike or fixie at 25-30mph on the road. It's nice to see more bikes in London, yes, but the cycling culture there is the wrong one. Every country that does utility cycling well for everyone fits the former model, not the latter one which is for testosterone filled, Lycra wearing young and middle aged males only. (Look at the demographic of London cyclists and you'll see my point, even though I am a middle aged male! )

So you admit that it is about the "feel" of the speed, rather than the speed itself. I have long suspected that it is regulation first, safety second. Oh, and the Netherlands are another country. Whilst their approach to cycling has its upsides, those segregated facilities are far too slow to cover more than a couple of miles in reasonable time, which is not so good in the less-dense UK built-up areas. Cycling is often for exercise and/or instead of a bus journey in the UK, you need a roughly similar average speed. If you want to cover more than a couple of miles in a reasonable amount of time without committing a shed load of non-speed violations you do need to go rather quickly. Not all people live close enough for that to be useful. Oh, and you need to be pushing the pedals hard for the 2/3 or more of the maximum heartrate uplift required for exercise, and while up-hill sections can be used some of the time there are quite often not enough to pull that one off; uphill both ways is often not possible.

 

[Techniquest]

Well I've just been out and done 70-something miles today, mostly rural roads with a lot of A road riding and urban roads/shared-use paths too. I'd have been exploring new areas if there wasn't a train strike on!

I haven't much patience for typing tonight, especially as I'm eating my tea while on the forum, but I must agree with the stereotype needing to be binned. It's not just London, the idiotic cycling happens in every city I go to. Weaving in and out of traffic, often well into the other lane while doing so, facing oncoming traffic, squeezing up the side of lorries or buses, all that kind of thing. Lycra-clad or not, that sort of behaviour needs to stop being promoted as the way to do things, especially when it'll influence others to do the same.

I am no doubt not the most professional cyclist out there, but I am nothing like that. I did, I will confess, go the wrong way over the Stourbridge Town branch on a street signed No Entry for me, thankfully it was extremely quiet and just like that over the bridge. Not big, not clever, but I did it.

I'd sooner educate other road users about the dangers of overtaking on a windy road/over a hill/similar when they cannot see what's coming the other way. That sort of lunacy really needs fixing!

 

[Bald Rick]

I am no doubt not the most professional cyclist out there, but I am nothing like that. I did, I will confess, go the wrong way over the Stourbridge Town branch on a street signed No Entry for me, thankfully it was extremely quiet and just like that over the bridge. Not big, not clever, but I did it.

The biggest shame about this confession is that you were within a mile of two pubs serving the finest real ale in the country, and you now don’t drink the stuff!

 

[Techniquest]

The biggest shame about this confession is that you were within a mile of two pubs serving the finest real ale in the country, and you now don’t drink the stuff!

Indeed! My last alcoholic drink was a week or so before Easter 2021, there had been some epic family drama and a bottle of Tribute (warm at that) was in the kitchen. I grabbed hold of that and didn't waste time looking for a glass Other than that, it's been basically teetotal since early January 2020, and in case you're wondering no I didn't particularly enjoy that Tribute. At least it wasn't Carling or similar

I was actually meant to send you a PM, now you've reminded me, it's on my list of things to do tomorrow. If I remember of course!

As I really cannot be bothered right now with typing up a trip report for yesterday, here's a few photos from yesterday and today's cycling adventures

 

[Bikeman78]

Is anyone proposing that?

Yes, they are enforceable.

At a guess less than 1% of speeding offences are detected, especially in 20 mph areas. Anyway, I don't care. It won't make any any difference to my day to day life. Probably more chance of being knocked down and killed than done for speeding on a bike!

 

[cactustwirly]

Trouble is, the police can not / will not deal with speeding motorists, when might they find time to deal with speeding cyclists?

I must be imagining all those speed cameras and camera vans....

 

[Bald Rick]

At a guess less than 1% of speeding offences are detected, especially in 20 mph areas. Anyway, I don't care. It won't make any any difference to my day to day life. Probably more chance of being knocked down and killed than done for speeding on a bike!

at a guess, in 20mph zones, 0% of speeding offences are detected by the authorities (to four decimal places). I’ve certainly not heard of anyone who has had a speeding ticket in a 20.

Judging by experience, it’s little higher for all other roads. With 30 zones where most speeding incidents happen, in my experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

at a guess, in 20mph zones, 0% of speeding offences are detected by the authorities (to four decimal places). I’ve certainly not heard of anyone who has had a speeding ticket in a 20.

Judging by experience, it’s little higher for all other roads. With 30 zones where most speeding incidents happen, in my experience.

There are some GATSOs in central London in 20s (where it's near blanket), but they're relatively rare elsewhere, with 20s largely considered to be self-enforcing, i.e. without enforcement most people will end up doing 25ish in a 20 just as they'll do 35 ish in a 30. Plus you've got 20 Zones which are supposed to be designed with traffic calming measures specifically designed to make exceeding 20 for any length of time difficult. Thus even without enforcement 20s slow traffic even compared with enforced 30s.

It's not dissimilar to the way they used to put 50 on motorway roadworks with the expectation everyone would actually do 60 (or occasionally 40 if you wanted 50). When cameras showed up it caused some safety issues due to cars being slower than lorries (which always ran on the limiter and had accurate speedometers unlike cars) and so it's finally, with some mitigation (e.g. concrete barriers rather than cones), gone up to 60 which is much nicer for everyone as it reduces that risk.

 

[TheBigD]

We need a massive change in our urban road use culture, and that includes towards a more Dutch approach to utility cycling - that is, riding a sit up and beg type bike at 10-15mph in normal clothes on a safe, segregated facility, not riding an aggressive road bike or fixie at 25-30mph on the road. It's nice to see more bikes in London, yes, but the cycling culture there is the wrong one. Every country that does utility cycling well for everyone fits the former model, not the latter one which is for testosterone filled, Lycra wearing young and middle aged males only. (Look at the demographic of London cyclists and you'll see my point, even though I am a middle aged male! )

Why do you have such a one dimensional view on how people should cycle? Sit up and beg bike, 10-15mph, normal clothes, not riding a road bike at 25-30 mph. Blimey, how dare people not cycle in the manner that you approve of.

You're certainly giving us an insight in to your outdated prejudice and mindset.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Avon and Somerset Police top the league for prosecuting speeding offences, including 20mph ones. A friend got done for 26mph in a 20mph zone in Bath - opting to go on a speed awareness course to avoid points on his licence. I find it rather fraught driving in Bath and Bristol, with very high volumes of traffic, poor quality roads, mini-roundabouts and speed cameras absolutely everywhere. I can see why the Portishead railway might do rather well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you have such a one dimensional view on how people should cycle? Sit up and beg bike, 10-15mph, normal clothes, not riding a road bike at 25-30 mph. Blimey, how dare people not cycle in the manner that you approve of.

You're certainly giving us an insight in to your outdated prejudice and mindset.

I'm simply looking at how cycling is done in countries where it is universally a high-ranking mode of transport for all, which is what it should be here. Just like I promote integrated connectional urban multimodal public transport, as the only countries with high modal share are the ones who do it that way.

No issues if you want to ride a fast road bike around country lanes, but please do ride appropriately in urban areas, and vaguely stick to 20 limits even if you're not technically required to. If you're an experienced cyclist you know what 20 feels like; don't claim you don't, and very few inexperienced cyclists are going to be fit enough to get much past 20 before they get into the "experienced" bracket.

I also don't think open road cycle racing should be permitted, just as open road motor vehicle racing isn't, as it introduces people to the road whose primary concern specifically isn't safety, though that's a slightly different issue, and that urban areas are not the place for Strava segments and that Strava should therefore ban segments on 20mph roads to show they are a responsible company. Fine with sportives, but there should be no timed element, just as there isn't allowed to be for a car treasure hunt or navigational scatter, and wilful exceeding of the speed limit (whatever it is) or "wanton and furious cycling" should result in disqualification and a ban from future events for a period of time.

And yes, I'm a cyclist. I've just had it up to "here" with the significant number of cyclists who don't use the road responsibly and try to defend not doing so (I have more of an issue with the latter - I'd sort of accept "I cycle too fast, I know I shouldn't but I'm human"), just as, as a driver, I'm sick of other drivers who don't.

This is why I support the speed limit being extended to include pedal cycles. It will only affect, pretty much by definition, people cycling irresponsibly.

Avon and Somerset Police top the league for prosecuting speeding offences, including 20mph ones. A friend got done for 26mph in a 20mph zone in Bath - opting to go on a speed awareness course to avoid points on his licence. I find it rather fraught driving in Bath and Bristol, with very high volumes of traffic, poor quality roads, mini-roundabouts and speed cameras absolutely everywhere. I can see why the Portishead railway might do rather well.

I've driven in both, and to be honest if I stick the limiter on and set it to 21 (actual 20) I can just pay attention to what's around me, which is the point. Satnav also helps.

 

[ashkeba]

So you admit that it is about the "feel" of the speed, rather than the speed itself. I have long suspected that it is regulation first, safety second. Oh, and the Netherlands are another country. Whilst their approach to cycling has its upsides, those segregated facilities are far too slow to cover more than a couple of miles in reasonable time, which is not so good in the less-dense UK built-up areas.

Please go ride in the Netherlands before posting about it again. The non-urban cycleways are much faster-flowing than the slow city centre ones. I have ridden end to end and side to side across the country on them, often on a Dutch granny bike that Brits insult as a begging bike, often at over 20mph including some times without pedalling thanks to the tail wind.

Shapps is a fool and his hard line on bikes is like his hard line on train crews: trying to keep his job under the increasingly zealous Truss. He will probably fail.

 

[Techniquest]

What is a 'sit up and beg' bike?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please go ride in the Netherlands before posting about it again. The non-urban cycleways are much faster-flowing than the slow city centre ones. I have ridden end to end and side to side across the country on them, often on a Dutch granny bike that Brits insult as a begging bike, often at over 20mph including some times without pedalling thanks to the tail wind.

For clarity - "sit up and beg" isn't an insult, it just describes the riding position of one which is a little bit (but not entirely) similar to a dog "sitting up" and "begging" for food. Such bikes aren't seen with derision in most of the UK.

If anything the term "granny bike" would sound more insulting in the UK, a bit like "hairdresser's car" used to describe a budget and tacky-looking small sports car. Though I'm well aware that it's just a literal translation of "Omafiets" which is the correct term for them (specifically, ones with a step-through frame, only one gear and a backpedal brake) in the Netherlands.

Shapps is a fool and his hard line on bikes is like his hard line on train crews: trying to keep his job under the increasingly zealous Truss. He will probably fail.

Shapps is absolutely a fool, and he can't be gone from the role soon enough. The damage he has done to transport in the UK (all of it) is immense.

What is a 'sit up and beg' bike?

One that is ridden in an upright position (like a dog "sitting up and begging" for food). They would generally be seen as urban hybrids, but aren't the only type of hybrid, there are also urban hybrids with a far more "aggressive" riding position.

A "Sadiq cycle" is one modern example, so is the traditional Dutch "omafiets", but there are loads of urban hybrids of that sort of style. Decathlon do an excellent range of them, for example.

 

[Techniquest]

You mean like Beryl Bikes, as seen in the attached photo? I've never rode such a machine and thought of a dog sitting up and begging! No offence intended, but what a silly term, and I absolutely do not agree with you on this at all.

I do agree that some cyclists need to learn to cycle more sensibly though.

I'd also like to hear more from @ashkeba and their adventures in the Netherlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised you've never heard the term, it's a very common British term with no insults involved, but yes, that is one type. That sort of bike is universally ridden in the country that without doubt does urban utility cycling best - the Netherlands.

Yes, of course the Dutch ride fast road bikes in rural areas as a hobby, but they have more than one bike and use the right tool for the right job. It's a bit like cars - you might need a big diesel pickup or Land Rover for your farm, but you really shouldn't be driving it to a city, so if you do both frequently you probably need two cars, a pickup for your farm and a small petrol or electric city car for the city.

I don't of course object to you riding a road bike in London if you want provided you ride it considerately which I'm sure you do. The point is more that cycling culture in London is very much a testosterone culture, not an everyday transport culture - it's like sports cars rather than 1 litre Vauxhall Corsas - and I think that does harm to cycling in London because it puts Old Granny Smith off. If anything the presence of large numbers of upright hybrids ridden by people in normal clothes (if you prefer) is a sign of a good cycling culture which is working well for everyone.

If urban utility cycling is working well, your cyclists look exactly the same as your pedestrians other than the presence of a bicycle and, optionally, a helmet.

 

[ashkeba]

For clarity - "sit up and beg" isn't an insult, it just describes the riding position of one which is a little bit (but not entirely) similar to a dog "sitting up" and "begging" for food. Such bikes aren't seen with derision in most of the UK other than among some of the "Lycra lout"* brigade -

I don't know. Not only saying the rider is begging but also that they look like a dog seems a lot like an insult! Surely it cannot help to encourage use of such peaceful, controllable bikes?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

'BicycleDutch' is an excellent YouTuber based in 's-Hertogenbosch, showcasing the latest cycling developments in the Netherlands.

Here is his video on the fast inter-urban route between Nijmegen and Arnhem.

Nijmegen - Arnhem

And for railway interest, the international route between Nijmegen(NL) and Kleve(DE).

Nijmegen - Kleve

 

[jfollows]

at a guess, in 20mph zones, 0% of speeding offences are detected by the authorities (to four decimal places). I’ve certainly not heard of anyone who has had a speeding ticket in a 20.

Tower Bridge, for sure, results in many prosecutions for exceeding the 20mph limit.

EDIT 3,844 notices of intended prosecution issued in 2016, for example (http://news.cityoflondon.police.uk/r/800/you_can_pay_the_fine__but_can_you_live_with_the_c#).

EDIT Plus a former Metropolitan policeman, Richard Hammond, convicted of perverting the course of justice by attempting to get his ex-girlfriend to take the points for him when he broke the speed limit there (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...d-met-police-speeding-ticket-lie-b965825.html) more recently. "If you love me, you will do this", he apparently said, but when she no longer did she told the police.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Not so sure that Nederland is the promised land for cycling (I have cycled there). I picked up some material from the Dutch Cycling Embassy which seem$ to be an organisation interested in promoting sales of equipment. Several dodgy photos were used: a cycle with no brake levers*, with a coat slung over the handlebars and of course a picture of a cyclist using a telephone.

* I guess the cycle had a back-pedal brake only.

 

[Bald Rick]

Tower Bridge, for sure, results in many prosecutions for exceeding the 20mph limit.

Ok fair enough, but I would contend that almost everyone driving in a 20 limit exceeds 20 at some point. Unless they are extremely conscientious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know. Not only saying the rider is begging but also that they look like a dog seems a lot like an insult! Surely it cannot help to encourage use of such peaceful, controllable bikes?

"Upright hybrid" is probably the more formally correct term, but that include much more modern-looking steeds, I think there's a lovely olde-worlde retro-cool feel associated with "sit up and beg", like the Omafiets.

English can be a funny language. Remember that "that's the dog's b*******" means "that's amazingly good" in English slang! We do love our dogs here.

Ok fair enough, but I would contend that almost everyone driving in a 20 limit exceeds 20 at some point. Unless they are extremely conscientious.

I'm sure they do. But the thing I'm taking issue with here isn't cyclists who, absent a speedo, might stray up to 25 or so because the surrounding traffic is also doing so (after all the advantage of 20s for cyclists on the road is that they can, with some effort, ride with the traffic in the middle of the lane rather than being constantly overtaken by it), but rather those who are openly pushing the anti-car-zealotry argument that because the limit doesn't apply it's quite right that they should be able to weave in and out at knowingly well over 20.

The speed limit only doesn't apply to bicycles because in the past there's been no point - until the mid 2000s there weren't really any 20 limits, and doing over 30 on a pushbike other than down a steep hill is a heck of a lot of effort and can't be maintained by anyone other than the fittest cyclists. Where 20 limits and lower were normal and have been for years is the Royal Parks, and in those a Byelaw applies the limit to cyclists too. Thus, much as Shapps is posturing, I don't see any issue at all with applying this, but minus the "plates and insurance" tripe, which would mean it only being enforced in cases of really dangerous speed directly witnessed by Police or a community speed partnership using a handheld camera. Anyone who tries to justify dangerous speed* really needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.

* I have a bit of time for "I know I shouldn't, but I get a heck of a kick from riding my motorbike at 110mph at 2am on the dual carriageway with nobody about" (we all I'm sure know of a camera-free rural dual carriageway where that happens near us), but not for "it should be OK for me to knowingly** cycle at 30mph in a 20 because as a cyclist I'm superior to a car, and stuff pedestrians".

** Almost every cyclist I've seen even attempting to justify this on Twitter has posted videos of helmet cams showing their cycle being fitted with a digital speedometer, so they know full well they are doing it.

 

[MattA7]

How common is cycling purely as a method of getting from A-B in the UK I’ve always assumed the majority of cyclists do so for exercise or enjoyment which would explain the “fast and furious attitude” obviously the faster you pedal the most calories you burn.

I’m not a cyclist in fact I’ve never ridden a Bicycle in my life (which is probably very unusual) so I can’t say if people get any enjoyment out of it but I can’t imagine so. Bike seats or saddles are hardcore cyclists would call them don’t look terribly comfortable and the safety elements involved are probably a constant concern. I do know some people who would like to ride a bike for exercise but feel it’s to dangerous.

 

[Techniquest]

I must be the exception, because I do not know well anyone who would wilfully and purposefully go well in excess of a speed limit, regardless of the road and traffic conditions. Driver or cyclist, none of my friends or family are that idiotic. I am aware of colleagues that have been reckless, but those people I do not generally associate myself with, especially outside a professional environment.

I cycle as sensibly as possible, and I think the majority of people do. Well, those who take it even slightly seriously at least. Although even there, there are exceptions. Too often I see GCN productions which (intentionally or not) promote silly cycling. Don't get me wrong, a lot of their productions are really good, but promoting dangerous cycling in busy cities like London is really not clever.

I would agree though on the point of a lot of people being put off by cycling on roads. It was great during the pandemic, such empty roads were wonderful, but now society has gone back to its pre-pandemic careless ways (let's not go there, I will be here until tonight debating that and I'd have to miss a shift at work for it!) the roads are full of careless driving again. I would absolutely say that sort of thing is what puts people off, not what some cyclists choose to wear and how they ride.

I don't think we're all ever going to agree on this issue! Before I head off to get ready for work, a thought on insurance. I've had a cycle insurance policy for absolutely ages, I genuinely can't remember how long. The pandemic was still going on in full swing, so it's been a while. It costs me less than £5 per month, and I must actually get on and add my Carrera to said policy soon. So I don't personally think cycle insurance would be a big off-putter for many people, perhaps families with lots of children but that isn't the majority of people. My insurance is less than £4.36 (I think it's even gone down to £4.01 now), which in the grand scheme of things is not much different to the price of one takeaway coffee these days. Depending on what coffee you get and where of course, more than one takeaway coffee if you only get filter coffee from Pret for example. Even so, it's not much at all, so I don't understand why it's a big deal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do know some people who would like to ride a bike for exercise but feel it’s to dangerous.

This is a key part of the issue and is why Dutch style facilities are very important, and once you provide those facilities (as London increasingly does) you'll find your cycling culture shifting somewhat towards a friendlier, "everyday" model with men and women (and any other genders), old and young enjoying cycling as an everyday, practical, safe, healthy and convenient mode of urban travel, entirely separate from riding road bikes fast which is a sporting activity best carried out on quiet rural roads which generally have a 50 or 60mph speed limit.

Urban utility cycling has about as much to do with fast road cycling as driving a Smart car at 20mph round a city has to do with motorsport. The only thing the two have in common is the involvement of (very different) bicycles.

That's not to say you can't choose to ride a fast road bike round London just as you can drive a Ferrari if you want, but you need to ride/drive it in the same slower, considerate, defensive way as the upright hybrid rider/Smart car driver.

 

[TheBigD]

@Techniquest ...

Out of interest which company do you use for cycling insurance?
I've used yellow jersey in the past but their prices seem to have rocketed this last year.

Secondly do you have any cycle rescue insurance? It's something I've been considering and wondered if you had experience of it.

 

[Cowley]

Can we keep this as a sensible discussion without throwing derogatory generalisations around please. Thanks!

 

[Techniquest]

@Techniquest ...

Out of interest which company do you use for cycling insurance?
I've used yellow jersey in the past but their prices seem to have rocketed this last year.

Secondly do you have any cycle rescue insurance? It's something I've been considering and wondered if you had experience of it.

I use ETA (https://www.eta.co.uk/bicycle-insurance/) for my policy as they were very reasonably priced (I currently only have my Ridgeback Speed hybrid on the policy, I need to add the Carrera Zelos yet) and they include recovery in the policy. I've never used the recovery system yet, so I can't detail on how much any excesses etc are, but it is nice to have it there.

Quite, you've reminded me to add my Carrera to the Bike Register scheme!

 

[TheBigD]

I use ETA (https://www.eta.co.uk/bicycle-insurance/) for my policy as they were very reasonably priced (I currently only have my Ridgeback Speed hybrid on the policy, I need to add the Carrera Zelos yet) and they include recovery in the policy. I've never used the recovery system yet, so I can't detail on how much any excesses etc are, but it is nice to have it there.

Quite, you've reminded me to add my Carrera to the Bike Register scheme!

Thanks for that, will check them out when I get time.

 

[Techniquest]

Thanks for that, will check them out when I get time.

You're welcome, I only found out about them through a cycling group on Facebook ages ago. I've not claimed through them yet, so I can't speak for their customer service skills but otherwise I'm very happy with the price I pay. Do let me know how you get on!