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D&G Buses

M803UYA

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Under my stone....
Why would D&G’s conditions be inferior? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
None but I have extensive commercial planning experience from large and small operators spanning 14 years within the industry. The smaller independent might not issue staff uniforms, will pay less per hour, may or may not have a generous pension scheme, is unlikely to have crew rest room facilities - and may not pay all of the duty time. Add to which, drivers may well be expected to refuel and clean the vehicle they've driven all day at the end of their shift. Some smaller operators simply pay a daily rate regardless of how long you actually work. Larger operators will pay by the hour and will guarantee a minimum (such as 39 hours) level of weekly pay.

The larger operators will have terms and conditions agreed with the trade union over a number of years. Such things as paid travel time from the depot to the duty changeover point will be enshrined in an agreement. Smaller operators will be more flexible when it comes to scheduling driver duties and rosters - so the maximum driving time would be governed by domestic drivers hours limits rather than a company agreement. As would agreed locations for drivers to take breaks. In larger firms those are covered by trade union agreements, so if a driving shift needs to take a break at a non agreed location, there'll be a cost to it, or the union simply won't accept it on principle. So you'd have the cost of returning the driver to the home depot/agreed break location in the driving duty time.

So this is how I arrive at my assumption....
 
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RailUK Forums

Contains Nuts

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None but I have extensive commercial planning experience from large and small operators spanning 14 years within the industry. The smaller independent might not issue staff uniforms, will pay less per hour, may or may not have a generous pension scheme, is unlikely to have crew rest room facilities - and may not pay all of the duty time. Add to which, drivers may well be expected to refuel and clean the vehicle they've driven all day at the end of their shift. Some smaller operators simply pay a daily rate regardless of how long you actually work. Larger operators will pay by the hour and will guarantee a minimum (such as 39 hours) level of weekly pay.

The larger operators will have terms and conditions agreed with the trade union over a number of years. Such things as paid travel time from the depot to the duty changeover point will be enshrined in an agreement. Smaller operators will be more flexible when it comes to scheduling driver duties and rosters - so the maximum driving time would be governed by domestic drivers hours limits rather than a company agreement. As would agreed locations for drivers to take breaks. In larger firms those are covered by trade union agreements, so if a driving shift needs to take a break at a non agreed location, there'll be a cost to it, or the union simply won't accept it on principle. So you'd have the cost of returning the driver to the home depot/agreed break location in the driving duty time.

So this is how I arrive at my assumption....
You lose credibility by ending with the word ‘assumption’ when your original comment was basically written as if it were a fact. During current uncertain times ‘assumptions’ can be very harmful given people’s livelihoods are involved.
 

markymark2000

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You lose credibility by ending with the word ‘assumption’ when your original comment was basically written as if it were a fact. During current uncertain times ‘assumptions’ can be very harmful given people’s livelihoods are involved.
As of May 2021, the reported pay was £9.65 rising to £10.03.

That is from one review on Indeed.
As of 2020/21 despite slowly coming out of covid,there is a 3 month probationary period to earn your merit..basically to see if your good enough..The starting pay is £9.65ph,going on to £10.03ph,even then you have to keep on reminding them. Due to brexit everywhere is going up in prices,including fuel /other costs is getting expensive to live..Yet wage per hour is remaining the same.. D&G need to realise that they need to give thier drivers a big matching payrise(similar to the bigger named opposition like arriva and stagecoach.(£10.75-£11ph)And I don't mean 2 pence or 10 pence. as we are on barely just past the national minimum wage as it is...

Indeed does however show the rate of pay reported by a few others is £10.59 (which would add up based off the £10.03 offered in 2021, the rate of pay going up 50p since then).

That is the only data that I can currently find online for D&Gs salary

The benefits listed on D&Gs page are mostly legal minimums or basic common sense.

• Competitive pay rates with enhancements
• Minimum guaranteed hours of work each week with overtime available
• Various shifts available to suit your needs
• 28 days holiday (inclusive of bank holidays)
• Uniforms will be provided
• Workplace pension
• Fantastic career opportunities
• Being part of a supportive team
• Additional employee benefits
• Free bus travel
• Full route learning and familiarisation
Holiday pay and pension are legal requirements.
Free bus travel is industry standard.
Route learning and familiarisation, that's common sense.
'fantastic career opportunities and part of a supportive team' is corporate waffle that everyone says.

Nothing there stands out as 'pick us for your career' reasons. It's just bare minimum stuff.
 

Lewisham2221

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You lose credibility by ending with the word ‘assumption’ when your original comment was basically written as if it were a fact. During current uncertain times ‘assumptions’ can be very harmful given people’s livelihoods are involved.
It's really only an assumption on the basis of not being privy to the exact pay and conditions of Arriva vs D&G. It's really pretty much a given that pay and conditions will be less generous at a smaller operator. Do you really think that smaller operators would be able to operate the kinds of services that they often do, if they offered the same (or better) pay and conditions as the big groups? It's like chastising someone for "assuming" that a Premier League footballer will have better pay and conditions than a League 2 player. It's a given. It's only an assumption on the basis of not having it in black and white to quote.
 

Cesarcollie

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Naughty naughty. I suppose the idea is to rehire them on lower pay.

TUPE does not apply if an operator ceases to run a commercial service and another operator takes it on. Similarly if a commercial service becomes contracted. It only applies if a contract moves from one operator to another (and then subject to certain conditions being met). It would also apply if operator B buys the business of Operator A. As far as I know, none of these scenarios are applicable in the Arriva/D&G example.
 

Lewisham2221

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TUPE does not apply if an operator ceases to run a commercial service and another operator takes it on. Similarly if a commercial service becomes contracted.
I thought exactly the same.

It only applies if a contract moves from one operator to another (and then subject to certain conditions being met).
I assume it would have to be within the terms of the contract to be applicable (and assume this to be the case within the franchised rail and London bus operations)?

It would also apply if operator B buys the business of Operator A. As far as I know, none of these scenarios are applicable in the Arriva/D&G example.
Agreed. I wasn't sure if it might apply if some sort of agreement had been formally reached between the two operators, but in any case, this would surely include some sort of written, legally binding contract or agreement that either side would be able to get out of?
 

mjc

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If Arriva repeat this they'll find drivers simply walking out on them whenever they close a depot, thus accelerating the closure process because they cannot operate services. If there is no redundancy payment on offer, people are hardly going to stay around and help them shut down!
Arriva can’t simply decide that there’s no redundancy on offer though. Some exceptions apply to redundancy entitlement but it’s a statutory (and in some cases contractual) entitlement and can’t just be ignored or switched off by the employer if they no longer want to employ you but haven’t transferred the business to someone else.

There appears to be some confusion over what's happening to the former Arriva staff at Macclesfield. Looks like everyone's favourite Stoke-on-Trent based bus operator isn't respecting TUPE.
I think this is rather unfair to D&G. Has there been a transfer (ie sale) of the Arriva business to D&G? If not then TUPE doesn’t apply.
 

Lewisham2221

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Arriva can’t simply decide that there’s no redundancy on offer though. Some exceptions apply to redundancy entitlement but it’s a statutory (and in some cases contractual) entitlement and can’t just be ignored or switched off by the employer if they no longer want to employ you but haven’t transferred the business to someone else.
Could there possibly be something in the contract that compels staff to transfer to another depot (eg Runcorn, Wythenshawe) before redundancy is offered? Either way, it wouldn't be particularly relevant here, as I still don't see how TUPE would apply.



I think this is rather unfair to D&G. Has there been a transfer (ie sale) of the Arriva business to D&G? If not then TUPE doesn’t apply.
Nothing, up to this point, appears to suggest that there has.

The only thing I can think of is that somebody at Arriva has tried to construe the reported leasing of the Macclesfield premises and hiring of the Macclesfield manager by D&G, combined with registering the routes, as a "takeover" as such, in order to try and get around redundancy payouts for Macclesfield staff? Note: This is purely speculation based on what has been said/reported so far.
 

bunty0657

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The only thing I can think of is that somebody at Arriva has tried to construe the reported leasing of the Macclesfield premises and hiring of the Macclesfield manager by D&G, combined with registering the routes, as a "takeover" as such, in order to try and get around redundancy payouts for Macclesfield staff? Note: This is purely speculation based on what has been said/reported so far.
It seems to be said in the article quoted that the TUPE disagreement came about at least a month ago, while the leasing of the Macclesfield depot looks to have happened later than that.

I agree that it's very difficult to see how a TUPE case is in play here. If all that presented in the news story and the post referencing 20+ drivers told by Arriva to turn up at D&G's depot this morning is correct, it comes across as a very shabby way to treat staff. It's also interesting to note the comment in the news story that Unite has been pushing Arriva for redundancy payments for all affected staff. Unite had presumably taken legal advice on that position.
 

Shauny

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I notice the new Macclesfield locals are being operated by 3 small Enviros that were running Cheshire routes last week. So, if it's been operated from Stoke today then some vehicles have been moved around.
We are running them from Crewe depot at the moment.

The 19,19A however is being ran from Longton for the time being.
 

M803UYA

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Under my stone....
It's really only an assumption on the basis of not being privy to the exact pay and conditions of Arriva vs D&G. It's really pretty much a given that pay and conditions will be less generous at a smaller operator. Do you really think that smaller operators would be able to operate the kinds of services that they often do, if they offered the same (or better) pay and conditions as the big groups? It's like chastising someone for "assuming" that a Premier League footballer will have better pay and conditions than a League 2 player. It's a given. It's only an assumption on the basis of not having it in black and white to quote.
Thanks for that, you've said it better than me...
 

northwichcat

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We are running them from Crewe depot at the moment.

The 19,19A however is being ran from Longton for the time being.

Presuming the 82 is now operated from Wincham as there's a Versa on the 88 today, that was on the 82 yesterday and a Enviro 200 on the 82 today, that was on the 88 yesterday.

Two vehicles seem to be tracking as the Solo number 130, so obviously not everything is tracking correctly.

If all that presented in the news story and the post referencing 20+ drivers told by Arriva to turn up at D&G's depot this morning is correct,

Someone posted the claim about TUPE in a Northwich group on Facebook before Monday, so some drivers must have known the situation before turning up to drive for D&G on Monday.

I think this is rather unfair to D&G. Has there been a transfer (ie sale) of the Arriva business to D&G? If not then TUPE doesn’t apply.

That's the not the only instance where TUPE can apply, as already explained.

ACAS said:
A 'TUPE transfer' happens when:
  • an organisation, or part of it, is transferred from one employer to another
  • a service is transferred to a new provider, for example when another company takes over the contract for office cleaning

 
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Fleetmaster

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It's really only an assumption on the basis of not being privy to the exact pay and conditions of Arriva vs D&G. It's really pretty much a given that pay and conditions will be less generous at a smaller operator. Do you really think that smaller operators would be able to operate the kinds of services that they often do, if they offered the same (or better) pay and conditions as the big groups? It's like chastising someone for "assuming" that a Premier League footballer will have better pay and conditions than a League 2 player. It's a given. It's only an assumption on the basis of not having it in black and white to quote.
I think there's lots of good reasons to think a smaller operator like D&G would have potentially smaller costs than Arriva, certainly in these marginal areas where Arriva's size and ready access to financing isn't a factor. The latter because Arriva clearly doesn't see the commercial benefit of investing in the business.

The basic employment costs would likely be the same, perhaps a little better for D&G whose drivers should be more committed and customer focused. Indeed, for smaller companies it's often easier to offer perks like private medical, not that either probably have it.

D&G are surely big enough to be in a position to achieve Arriva like savings in back office and operational matters through basic business tools, leaving only bulk fuel and capital costs being Arriva's solid advantage. Then again, these big legacy depots can be way more costly than the smaller facilities D&G can use, especially when being under-utilised and staffed by disinterested or even aggrieved staff.

It's certainly Arriva not D&G that suffers from having to fund dividends and unrealistic pay settlements. Even things like sourcing parts and basic engineering can be cheaper for D&G, given the size and lack of general commitment to the bottom line in a poorly performing Arriva outpost, where the effect on the business of everyone's working practices can feel remote if not entirely irrelevant. The intangibles (cooperation, commitment, goodwill) needed to run buses are certainly easier to foster in a smaller company.

Last but not least, is customer loyalty. I fondly remember a recent holiday run on a subsidied tiny D&G Solo serving as a community lifeline for a little picturesque village. The vehicle was well maintained, well presented and the driver friendly. Arriva wouldn't even bid for such tin pot business.

A day later, the experience of using an Arriva inter-urban route for more holiday making, despite its already pretty useless hourly headway, was predictably horrific. Horrible vehicles and even worse staff, whose unprofessionalism is astounding. Something you absolutely know cannot be improved with better pay because it's a question of basic character and work ethic, and was most likely a result of their absolute dominance of that area, the network being just a bit too large and spread out for an operator like D&G to comfortably take on, at least in one go. To fail to provide basic customer service to out of towers, even in a large bus station, is unforgivable.

With things like bustimes.org these days, there's little reason to prefer Arriva if you have a choice, and no real downside to venturing into an area whose buses are provided solely by independents like D&G. You even get the sense a D&G driver would be prepared to go the extra mile when traffic disruption threatens your plans, as it did on that second day. Arriva, not so much.

Other costs probably factor too. I now make it a rule to ensure Arriva pays every single refund I am entitled to, even if it feels a little absurd to be spending half an hour to claim back a few quid. I do this because thier staff are just such horrible selfish people, and in sufficient numbers that it can't be dismissed as the odd bad apple. I'd never even think of being so mean spirited to a smaller company like D&G.
 

sonic2009

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I do wish D&G the best of luck with the current network they have now, it will be interesting to see how things pan out over the next few months. I've seen a few ex-arriva drivers who are now working for D&G which is good to see that they already know the routes.
 

SeanM1997

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Just visited Crewe Bus Station and the timetables and stands have been updated (except the 84X which has no mention on any board or the temporary stand allocation sheet on the bench areas)

What was noticeable was how many people exited the 31 route at Crewe - 15 people. Not sure what it was like under Arriva but is nice to see people using the bus in the middle of the day
 

northwichcat

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Just visited Crewe Bus Station and the timetables and stands have been updated (except the 84X which has no mention on any board or the temporary stand allocation sheet on the bench areas)

Cheshire East normally update bus timetable information at stops in time for timetable changes. They usually do it the Friday before, which isn't good if the Saturday times change significantly and someone refers to them the day after they are changed.

What was noticeable was how many people exited the 31 route at Crewe - 15 people. Not sure what it was like under Arriva but is nice to see people using the bus in the middle of the day

Given Arriva normally allocated deckers to the 31/37 workings that picked up the schools and Pulsars on the others, I suspect off-peak loadings were quite good. D&G keeping similar timings on those services will likely help.

To fail to provide basic customer service to out of towers, even in a large bus station, is unforgivable.

Unless things have recently changed D&G don't man their phone lines at the weekend. So if a bus doesn't turn up then you're on your own.
 
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SeanM1997

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Cheshire East are normally update bus timetable information at stops in time for timetable changes. They usually do it the Friday before, which isn't good if the Saturday times change significantly and someone refers to them the day after they are changed.
They probably did that but as the 84X wasn't accepted until then, may explain why they are not on the board. Going to be some task to replace timetables across the Borough!
 

mjc

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That's the not the only instance where TUPE can apply, as already explained.



I know far more than I’d ever want to about TUPE, and you’re right it can apply beyond a business transfer, but unless the routes concerned we’re all tendered and served by a distinct group of staff within D&G then the service provision condition won’t be met either.

If you do think TUPE would apply then perhaps you could explain how. Otherwise the suggestions upthread that D&G were playing fast and loose with the law would best be retracted.
 

Fleetmaster

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Unless things have recently changed D&G don't man their phone lines at the weekend. So if a bus doesn't turn up then you're on your own.
It's worse than that. This was an entirely Arriva dominated bus station. The services back to my hotel were visibly stuffed because of a traffic issue affecting one A road. This was only around 4pm. There was no information anywhere in the station, while the departure screens did their usual, telling you fantasy timetable stuff. The locals had that look of being depressingly familiar with the situation and settling in for a long wait, since there is no train service and the length of the routes means they are quite expensive for a taxi.

Assorted drivers were around the station and indeed in their cabs. Not one really cared to even engage when I asked them what was going on, seeing me as an irritatant at best, acting like I was speaking a foreign language at worst. Even though you know for damn sure they did know what was going on because it's all coming through on the radio and the driver grapevine. And they for sure know their own network.

I had to figure out for myself from bustimes.org that the issue was only affecting one corridor and that other services that took a different road but reached the same end point were running fine, and indeed one would be arriving in five minutes. I'd not known about those routes because they didn't serve one of the stops I needed on the outbound leg in the morning, and their gate was several bays down from where I was waiting. Had I not checked, based on my mental calculations, the earliest I could expect a bus back was in an hour, with luck, and that is for an hour long trip.

I have absolutely no doubt, because I'd interacted with one the day before and bent his ear for a good five minutes about the basics of timings and routes, that a D&G driver would have answered my queries helpfully and with courtesy. If, of course, we accept that hopefully D&G scaling up to an Arriva sized patch, especially if using former Arriva drivers, can be done without simply replicating the culture of Arriva. I hope so!
 

northwichcat

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Here is the source about Unite and Arriva because it's obviously relevant to the discussion and some people have missed it. I did post yesterday that this was mentioned in the Route One article which was already linked to earlier on in this thread.

It has been claimed that a Unite representative then informed members employed by Arriva at Winsford that the union was seeking full redundancy payments from the group for all staff affected.

 
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A0

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If D&G are not acquiring Arriva's Winsford and Macclesfield operations they have two choices:
1. Recruit new drivers and train them on the new routes. Arriva then have to pay redundancy payments to drivers.
2. Arrange TUPE for drivers who already know the routes but with the drivers retaining their contract terms from the old employer.

Option 2 is obviously quicker and cheaper in the short term for both Arriva and D&G.




I wonder if Macclesfield will be seen as a Crewe outstation or a Stoke outstation. Crewe having two outstations might mean they get overloaded with servicing.

I notice the new Macclesfield locals are being operated by 3 small Enviros that were running Cheshire routes last week. So, if it's been operated from Stoke today then some vehicles have been moved around.

The 38 and 85 seem to be allocated large vehicles for all services, rather than the mix of small and large they had last week. One of the vehicles on the 85 was running Chaserider services last week.

The 31 and 37 seem to be allocated large Enviros and one of the big Solos. The latter will have a lower total capacity.

The 84X is allocated two small Enviros, so they obviously aren't expecting too many passengers on it, or if they are then they just don't have enough large vehicles.

Bit in bold - it isn't, because you have to go through a formal consultation with employees on such a change.

And one of the challenges is who is being TUPE'd versus who isn't - given D&G are not taking over Arriva's work entirely or on a 1:1 basis, they may not require as many drivers, in which case there has to be a selection process where by some are selected for TUPE and others would remain with Arriva for redundancy. It's fairly easy if it's a full takeover i.e. if D&G had bought the depot, staff and routes for a symbolic £ 1 or something like that - there would have to be consultation but any driver refusing to TUPE would simply be treated as if they resigned i.e. no redundancy because their job wasn't being made redundant. But when it's splitting an operation - that's more difficult.
 

SeanM1997

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D&G have updated their website:

Tell us what you think!
We started several new services in Cheshire on 23rd April and want your feedback to help us improve your bus network

 

Simon75

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Maybe they will renumber the Cheshire services to reduce duplicate numbers.
 
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PaulWC

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Maybe they will renumber the Cheshire services to reduce duplicate numbers.
Pre Covid the website used to list services by area, so the Cheshire and Stoke services were listed separately. Something similar would be helpful and cut down on the couple of duplications - maybe even add a network map like the one for Chaserider.
 

Pub

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Maybe they will renumber the Cheshire services to reduce duplicate numbers.
Could always go back to the old crosville system, use a letter in front of the number i.e K was Crewe, Chester was C, some older people still refer to the Crewe to Chester service as C84
 

northwichcat

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Maybe they will renumber the Cheshire services to reduce duplicate numbers.

But then why confuse Weaverham passengers because there's another service in Stoke with a 1 route number?

I recall GHA came up with a random number for a Macclesfield to Congleton via Bosley service because the previous operator used 39 and there was another 39 on their network. That seemed to do more harm that good.
 

MotCO

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D&G are surely big enough to be in a position to achieve Arriva like savings in back office and operational matters through basic business tools, leaving only bulk fuel and capital costs being Arriva's solid advantage.
Do smaller operators ever club together to try to get bulk fuel discounts?
 

Tetchytyke

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That's the not the only instance where TUPE can apply, as already explained.

TUPE can apply where a tendered service is transferred to a new supplier, such as outsourced catering, cleaning, etc. Although there are limits, where a staff member needs to be tied to a specific job for most or all of their work. An outsourced caterer who turns up to the same canteen every day will often meet this criteria. It gets a lot messier where bus drivers may drive on certain tendered routes but will also drive on commercial routes.

I don’t see how D&G taking on commercial routes to replace Arriva’s cancellation of said commercial routes can be construed as meaning TUPE will apply. The tenders will be a bit more complicated, but I don’t think TUPE will apply.

As D&G won’t want TUPE to apply, and as the drivers probably won’t either (redundancy payment then a new job the next day is better), then I suspect Arriva are the ones being a bit naughty. Also worth noting that other benefits, such as workplace pensions, usually don’t fall under TUPE protections anyway.
 

northwichcat

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Do smaller operators ever club together to try to get bulk fuel discounts?

D&G's Wincham buses get refueled at the Tesco store in Northwich. If they head down to Crewe they might return with a full tank from somewhere else.

I don’t see how D&G taking on commercial routes to replace Arriva’s cancellation of said commercial routes can be construed as meaning TUPE will apply. The tenders will be a bit more complicated, but I don’t think TUPE will apply.

I did refer to where TUPE can apply, not where it will apply.

As D&G won’t want TUPE to apply, and as the drivers probably won’t either (redundancy payment then a new job the next day is better), then I suspect Arriva are the ones being a bit naughty. Also worth noting that other benefits, such as workplace pensions, usually don’t fall under TUPE protections anyway.

TUPE saves the new provider time and money that would be spent on recruitment.

As for what drivers want, it may depend on their level of service. Someone employed by Arriva for 25 years who is happy to end their bus driving career may be very happy with a redundancy payment. Someone with 1.5 years at Arriva might not get anything of note from redundancy and might end up on a lower wage if they move to another operator, so they would benefit from TUPE. Workplace pensions might not fall under TUPE but everyone's entitled to one under employment legislation. 15 years ago that wasn't the case and moving employers could result in you gaining one or no longer getting one.

**** New post 28/4 ****

How are the services that carry school pupils fairing?

D&G seem to have been allocating 3 large Enviros to the 88/89 this week but this morning it's just 2. I heard that caused an issue at Altrincham Interchange this morning. As with the 288 suspended (due to Little Gem ceasing operations) it means there's no 08:15 bus out towards St Ambrose, so they all board the 08:30 88. This morning it seems a small Enviro was put on the 08:30 88 journey. It sounds like two TfGM inspectors had to get involved and the service departed around 7 minutes late. I've got no idea if anyone was left behind.

It looks like the large Enviro has gone on to the Weaverham service today. I've not seen the journeys used by the Weaverham High pupils so can't comment as to whether was a good or bad decision.

******

For anyone not following the Little Gem thread TfGM have awarded D&G the contracts for the Sale local services - 260, 261 and 262. They are not taking on the 288 again, that contract has gone to Belle Vue.

 
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SeanM1997

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Are D&G overstretching with this addition? I know its just 1 bus required but thats a long way from a depot and not overly easy to see how a driver change/crew breaks will happen
 

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