"Dartford lines" history

[telstarbox]

I had a few questions about the Dartford lines i.e. the suburban routes from Central London via Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath or Sidcup to Dartford:

Did these lines go straight from steam locomotive to EMU operation without a diesel era in between?

Did all three lines always have services to both a West End (Victoria / Charing Cross) and a City terminus (Holborn Viaduct / Cannon Street)? How did they decide which service to send to Victoria - as a passenger I would see that as more of a backwater than Charing Cross which serves more 'central' areas.

Apart from the Eltham scheme in the 1980s are all the stations on these lines effectively in the same place as when the lines opened?

Any more general observations are welcome too as per this cross-post from the Watford DC Line thread

notorious estate at Kidbrooke (also now gone), I’d imagine this gave trouble at times too.(he Ferriers Estate)
Good friend covered the area as SM Relief - any arriving down train disgorged maybe 200 passengers , 100 of which jumped the wooden fence. Day 2 he got the top of the fence coated with point greasing oil (which they could not complain about when they automatically tried to wipe their hands on the clothes - suits may be too posh for some of them) - Day 3 he got the PW to saw the joists on the fence , so the next 100 or so had the fence collapse under them
There was a donkey ride on the common at Blackheath , some of the residents stole the poor animals and held them hostage. They were returned safely - but the criminals had got them into a lift in the flats and held them in a flat.

And one more question - the current services finish just after midnight out of Charing X. Were there ever later services on these lines e.g. in World War II? Was there significant military passenger traffic to Woolwich Arsenal or Chatham / Gillingham further down the North Kent?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

G H Moody's very detailed book "Southern Electric" (I have a 1979 edition) ,will answer virtually all of your questions. Strong on detailed timetable information.

 

[yorksrob]

The Dartford lines were all South Eastern territory, so would have had a choice of Charing Cross and Cannon Street until the ling between Lewisham and Nunhead was created in the early - mid 20th century. This was created from the remains of the London, Chatham and Dover Railway's competing branch to Greenwich (which originally crossed over the South Eastern's lines at StJohns).

 

[John Webb]

There are two books in the Middleton Press series "Charing Cross to Dartford" and "Lewisham to Dartford via Bexleyheath and Sidcup". The first book deals with the route via Greenwich, Charlton and Woolwich to Dartford, the second book deals with the other two lines.
(The line through New Cross and St John's is covered in another book which I don't have.)

The lines were electrified in 1926, well before diesels showed up. Longer distance passenger trains remained steam-hauled until the Kent coast electrification of the 1950s. Goods traffic remained steam-hauled until the early 1960s. The link to Victoria at Lewisham dates from the mid-1930s.

Traffic to the Royal Arsenal was goods traffic via a connection at Plumstead and also linked the former Royal Dockyard to the Arsenal, the Dockyard having become part of the Arsenal when naval work ceased around the 1860s. There was no special passenger traffic into the arsenal; workers at the Arsenal travelled mainly by tram from Plumstead, Charlton and from the WW1-built estate in the Well Hall area. That's not to say some didn't travel to Woolwich from further afield by train, but that would have been on regular services. (The Arsenal had it's own very extensive railway network, both standard and narrow-gauge, both of which ran internal passenger services. See "The Royal Arsenal Railways" by Mark Smithers, Pen and Sword Transport, 2016.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Worth noting that the commissioning of the New London Bridge PSB in the 1970's was carried out in very proactive "bits" - new interlockings being put into service with just a series of weekend blocks , lasting a few hours.

None of this , extensive all line blocks for a week or so at a time . Yes , I know standards and so on were different in those days.

 

[30907]

The history is a bit complicated: after the London and Greenwich, the North Kent line via Lewisham and Woolwich was next followed by the Dartford (Sidcup) Loop.
The Bexleyheath Railway (nominally independent) and the extension from Greenwich to Charlton came later.
Then around 1929 the SR re-purposed the old LCDR line to Greenwich Park to make a Nunhead-Lewisham link, adding the Courthill Loop allowing moves from Lewisham to Hither Green; this was for freight traffic initially. Finally the Crayford Spur was built during WW2, basically as an emergency route.
IIRC Albany Park was opened by the SR but other stations were pre grouping.

Trains always went to Cannon St/Charing X. To cope with traffic growth the Nunhead line was electrified in 1935 and services to Holborn V/Blackfriars from the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines were introduced IIRC they also served offices at Elephant and C. These trains were always quieter, and traffic declined in the 70s.
The Crayford Spur didn't have any advertised services until the 70s (but was handy for access to Slade Green depot).

The service to Victoria was introduced around when the area was resignalled and was initially very quiet - it effectively replaced the Holborns and eventually became all day. There was a definite switch in commuting post WW2 from City to West End (Bexleyheath and Sidcup line traffic was definitely more to CHX) and the Victoria Line was a factor too.

I'm not aware of all-night services (after 0100) - there were such out of Holborn for newspaper workers towards Orpington via Herne Hill/Catford and a connection to St Helier via Wimbledon, but none went via London Bridge.

 

[telstarbox]

G H Moody's very detailed book "Southern Electric" (I have a 1979 edition) ,will answer virtually all of your questions. Strong on detailed timetable information.

Thanks, I'll see if I can track it down - assume this would be out of print by now?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks, I'll see if I can track it down - assume this would be out of print by now?

Well out of print I guess - but try the usual secondhand sources , if that fails - the British Library is your friend.

A magnificently reseached work.

 

[Harvester]

Thanks, I'll see if I can track it down - assume this would be out of print by now?

Used copies currently available from Amazon.

 

[Springs Branch]

Worth noting that the commissioning of the New London Bridge PSB in the 1970's was carried out in very proactive "bits" - new interlockings being put into service with just a series of weekend blocks , lasting a few hours.

None of this , extensive all line blocks for a week or so at a time . Yes , I know standards and so on were different in those days.

Lurking on YouTube is a film covering the re-signalling of the North Kent Lines between 1967 and 1970 and commissioning of the Dartford Power Box. Great illustration of how things were done back in the day.

Search YouTube for "First of the Thirteen" or try this link.

I'm not aware of all-night services (after 0100) - there were such out of Holborn for newspaper workers towards Orpington via Herne Hill/Catford and a connection to St Helier via Wimbledon, but none went via London Bridge.

The 1961 timetable shows a 02:55 departure from Holborn Viaduct, 03:06 at London Bridge, then next stop Dartford at 03:36 and on to Northfleet, Gravesend Central, most stops to Gillingham (arr 04:29), Margate and Ramsgate arr. 05:58.

The train has 5-minute-ish stops at Dartford & Gravesend, so most likely primarily a newspaper (as in the product, not the print workers) or parcels train. Certainly not a train calling at London area suburban stations like the Holborn Viaduct - Orpington all-night service of that era.

G H Moody's very detailed book "Southern Electric" (I have a 1979 edition) ,will answer virtually all of your questions. Strong on detailed timetable information.

I managed to bag myself a copy just before last Christmas - a gold mine of the sort of info which fascinates me. There were plenty of copies for sale on various sites when I was shopping for one. However, some of those on offer seemed to be early editions, so you might need to be careful to click on one of 1979 vintage to avoid missing out on the most recent revision and info.

 

[30907]

The 1961 timetable shows a 02:55 departure from Holborn Viaduct, 03:06 at London Bridge, then next stop Dartford at 03:36 and on to Northfleet, Gravesend Central, most stops to Gillingham (arr 04:29), Margate and Ramsgate arr. 05:58.

The train has 5-minute-ish stops at Dartford & Gravesend, so most likely primarily a newspaper (as in the product, not the print workers) or parcels train. Certainly not a train calling at London area suburban stations like the Holborn Viaduct - Orpington all-night service of that era.

Yes, it was the paper train.

On Moody: yes, the 1979 edition is much more use - my 1957 edition (unsurprisingly) stops with EPBs and the SE 10-car scheme.

 

[steamybrian]

Services to/from Victoria/Holborn Viaduct via Nunhead to the Dartford Lines were not introduced until 1935 when the Nunhead- Lewisham line was opened and electrified.
The station at Lewisham was resited west of Lewisham Road in 1857 when the Mid Kent line was opened

 

[Roger1973]

I have never seen anything to suggest that there was an all-night passenger service on the Dartford lines, although that does not prove there weren't.

The Ferrier Estate, near Kidbrooke Station, had previously been the site of a Royal Air Force depot (think it was only ever storage, not an airfield) so there would have been some travel to it, but not sure it warranted an all night service.

1972/3 timetable shows an 0102 Blackfriars - London Bridge - Grove Park - Bromley North - Grove Park - Orpington. I think this later got moved to run from Charing Cross (and think the bit to Bromley North and back was removed.)

Same 1972/3 timetable shows Woolwich line had last down train at 0059 ex Charing Cross, and first up train 0400 Slade Green - Charing Cross (arr 0440), Bexleyheath last 2354 ex Charing Cross, first 0411 ex Barnehurst (arr Charing Cross 0450), Sidcup line last 2343 ex Charing Cross, first 0405 ex Dartford (arr Cannon Street 0448) - it's possible (I'd need a working timetable) there were 'not advertised' (i.e. staff) trains before and after normal service.

The London night bus network was quite limited until the mid / late 1980s, but there were some very late / early journeys on a number of tram then tram replacement bus routes in SE London and the trolleybus / replacement routes from Bexleyheath. Only the N 82 (Woolwich - Eltham - Lewisham - New Cross) had a proper 'all night' service.

My late father commuted from a Dartford line station from the mid 1960s until he retired (mostly to Holborn Viaduct), then I did in my first few years of work before circumstances took me away from London. I am not sure that services via the Lewisham - Nunhead link went to Victoria initially, I have a vague memory of publicity round them being launched (Mon - Fri peak hours only) some time in the late 80s. (Again, I've not seen anything to suggest they had run previously, but possible they had been withdrawn for the 1939 war. They aren't there in a couple of 1950s timetables I have seen but don't have to hand, or the 1972/3 issue.)

There are closed stations / halts between Gravesend and Hoo Junction at Denton, Milton Range and Milton Road (more on 'Disused Stations' website), although I understand these were only ever served by Gravesend - Grain / All Hallows steam trains, not electric trains to / from London.

There are also closed stations at Lewisham Road and Brockley Lane on the line between Lewisham and Nunhead (they closed with the Greenwich Park branch but did not re-open when the line was partly brought back in to use in the 30s) and Nunhead Station also moved. And closed stations at Holborn Viaduct, Ludgate Hill, Borough Road, Walworth Road, Camberwell and on the 'Cambria Curve' at Loughbourough Junction. More here (Disused Stations again.)

There's more on the original Lewisham Station on the blog 'Long and Lazy Lewisham'

If you have not encountered it, the website Kent Rail has more on most SE division stations, and the National Library of Scotland have old OS maps digitised and online, which means you can see former goods yards and so on (most of Woolwich Arsenal is blank space, the OS did not show 'secret' sites.) This is pre-1914, and this is post-1945 at large scale (centred on Lewisham, but you can just drag them around. Odd sheets are missing.)

 

[30907]

I am not sure that services via the Lewisham - Nunhead link went to Victoria initially, I have a vague memory of publicity round them being launched (Mon - Fri peak hours only) some time in the late 80s.

No, it was a new destination, helped by the repurposing of the old South London Line to take SE trains as well.

 

[Taunton]

I've always been curious about why the Blackheath to Charlton link between two of the Dartford lines halfway along was retained, rather than just three straightforward parallel routes, which though it may give some lesser-used suburban connections makes the service complex and irregular.

We had longstanding relations living around Erith/Bexleyheath, one of whom described to me inadvertently getting into a Holborn train in the 1930s, presumably when they were new, at a time when everyone just got the first train in, and changed at London Bridge if necessary where all stopped.

 

[yorksrob]

I've always been curious about why the Blackheath to Charlton link between two of the Dartford lines halfway along was retained, rather than just three straightforward parallel routes, which though it may give some lesser-used suburban connections makes the service complex and irregular.

We had longstanding relations living around Erith/Bexleyheath, one of whom described to me inadvertently getting into a Holborn train in the 1930s, presumably when they were new, at a time when everyone just got the first train in, and changed at London Bridge if necessary where all stopped.

Post 1930's, it allows a train from the Woolwich area to reach the Nunhead route via Lewisham.

 

[Taunton]

Post 1930's, it allows a train from the Woolwich area to reach the Nunhead route via Lewisham.

But I don't think that was ever done; the Blackfriars etc trains always seem to have been confined to the Bexleyheath and Dartford Loop lines.

I've written before on how the aggregates trains from Angerstein Wharf, connected halfway along this link, route all the way through Charlton and down to the Dartford triangles, then coming back again up the Dartford Loop line.

 

[yorksrob]

But I don't think that was ever done; the Blackfriars etc trains always seem to have been confined to the Bexleyheath and Dartford Loop lines.

I've written before on how the aggregates trains from Angerstein Wharf, connected halfway along this link, route all the way through Charlton and down to the Dartford triangles, then coming back up again up the Dartford Loop line.

Yes, I read that there are clearance issues with the tunnel.

I think the longer distance trains on the North Kent lines use that route, so it's a way of crossing the slows and accessing the fast Charing Cross lines.

 

[John Webb]

......I've written before on how the aggregates trains from Angerstein Wharf, connected halfway along this link, route all the way through Charlton and down to the Dartford triangles, then coming back again up the Dartford Loop line.

Yes, I read that there are clearance issues with the tunnel.

I think the longer distance trains on the North Kent lines use that route, so it's a way of crossing the slows and accessing the fast Charing Cross lines.

The Angerstein Wharf line when first opened had a connection to the up Blackheath line shortly before the tunnel. The branch was leased to the SER from 1852 and finally purchased by them in 1898. They set up a signal works in the triangle. As this grew they eventually removed the connection to the Up Blackheath line - I've no idea of the date. This left the connection to the down line as the only access point.
The Blackheath tunnel is a large construction - there always seemed plenty of room when I travelled through it, so I don't think clearance is the issue - simply that with the railway works closed down and housing a private trading estate there's no way the connection to the up Blackheath line could be restored to cut out the lengthy detour via Dartford. (I assume that it's impossible to have the loco run round the train due to the frequent passenger train service that would otherwise be delayed.)

My regular use of this line (I lived on the North side of Shooter's Hill) until 1977 was before the Nunhead line was given the connection to the up/down 'fasts' by St John's, and at that time all the non-stops from Woolwich Arsenal station ran via Greenwich.

 

[30907]

I've always been curious about why the Blackheath to Charlton link between two of the Dartford lines halfway along was retained, rather than just three straightforward parallel routes, which though it may give some lesser-used suburban connections makes the service complex and irregular.

It was, of course, the original route - but back in the early 70s I remember it as only 1tph off peak. That was then replaced offpeak by the Gillingham semifast which skipped Blackheath.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And by original route, the Maze Hill line didn’t get past, I think, Greenwich due to objections from the Royal Observatory to any trains. Thus to get to Woolwich you had to go via Lewisham.

 

[John Webb]

And by original route, the Maze Hill line didn’t get past, I think, Greenwich due to objections from the Royal Observatory to any trains. Thus to get to Woolwich you had to go via Lewisham.

Quite correct. The Royal Observatory would not allow the line from Greenwich through Maze Hill and Westcombe Park to Charlton to be built until the 1870s. Indeed the line started off from Charlton as a shuttle service on a single line only to Maze Hill in 1873. The link from Greenwich to Maze Hill was not opened until 1878.
Apparently the Royal Observatory had the right to stop trains from running if they thought fit. So concerned were they about possible electrical interference that trams in the Woolwich/Eltham area, once off the conduit system, were required to have a double wire system (like the later trolley buses) to avoid earth return currents.

 

[Springs Branch]

Sorry to revive the crime theme from the Watford DC thread (this thread's ancestor) - but was it on one of the Dartford lines that a murder took place in the 1980s, resulting in the remaining 4-EPB units with non-corridor compartments getting a red stripe painted above the doors on the carriages with that type of compartments? And possibly the unmodified EPBs then being restricted to use only on peak hour extras?

 

[telstarbox]

I wonder if @Busaholic would know.

 

[30907]

I wonder if @Busaholic would know.

Mr W Pedia does - it was an Orpington to Victoria service.

 

[Harvester]

Mr W Pedia does - it was an Orpington to Victoria service.

And the young woman’s killer was never caught.

 

[zwk500]

The Blackheath tunnel is a large construction - there always seemed plenty of room when I travelled through it, so I don't think clearance is the issue - simply that with the railway works closed down and housing a private trading estate there's no way the connection to the up Blackheath line could be restored to cut out the lengthy detour via Dartford. (I assume that it's impossible to have the loco run round the train due to the frequent passenger train service that would otherwise be delayed.)

It's now a Police impound, IIRC. There is theoretically options to runround at Plumstead (but believe the sidings aren't long enough) or Slade Green (although length and depot operations would be problems) but the bigger reason is that sending the train direct to Lewisham means finding a path to cross Lewisham Junction, which will be a severe performance risk as 3 tracks need to stop whilst the heavy freight struggles up the grade.
Routing via Dartford not only allows options to Hoo Jn yard, Hither Green or Tonbridge, but also means that when running via Lewisham the train is only on the Up Victoria and therefore doesn't block the other services as well as having a clearer route up the hill.

 

[John Webb]

It's now a Police impound, IIRC. There is theoretically options to runround at Plumstead (but believe the sidings aren't long enough) or Slade Green (although length and depot operations would be problems) but the bigger reason is that sending the train direct to Lewisham means finding a path to cross Lewisham Junction, which will be a severe performance risk as 3 tracks need to stop whilst the heavy freight struggles up the grade.
Routing via Dartford not only allows options to Hoo Jn yard, Hither Green or Tonbridge, but also means that when running via Lewisham the train is only on the Up Victoria and therefore doesn't block the other services as well as having a clearer route up the hill.

That all makes sense, and I presume also helps to reduce excessive wear on the complex crossings at Lewisham Junction!

 

[Snow1964]

The lines were electrified in 1926, well before diesels showed up. Longer distance passenger trains remained steam-hauled until the Kent coast electrification of the 1950s. Goods traffic remained steam-hauled until the early 1960s. The link to Victoria at Lewisham dates from the mid-1930s.

The Southern Railway, Eastern section lines, were done relatively fast as SE&CR had proposed a scheme few years earlier (but not started it). Their 1903 Act of Parliament included powers to electrify their surburban lines, but was 20 years before it happened.

12th July 1925 was Victoria-Orpington via Herne Hill & Beckenham Junction; Holborn Viaduct-Herne Hill, Brixton-Nunhead-Catford-Shortlands; Nunhead-Crystal Palace High level (this line is now closed)

21st September 1925 Elmers End-Hayes

28th February 1926 Charring Cross /Cannon Street-Addiscombe via Ladywell; New Cross-Grove Park via Orpington, Bromley North branch; New Beckenham-Beckenham Junction

19th July 1926 Charing Cross/Cannon Street -Dartford (all 4 routes, Greenwich, Bexleyheath, North Kent and Dartford loop)

6th July 1930 Dartford-Gravesend

16th July 1933 Lewisham-Hither Green

30th September 1935 Nunhead-Lewisham

11th October 1942 Crawford spur (new line)

As will be seen the repurposed former Greenwich branch was initially used a steam freight line, and electric trains didn't go that way until 1935

The Southern railway opened following stations in the area. Nunhead (new site) 3rd May 1925. Deptford (reopened as closed since March 1915) 19th July 1926 (same date as electric trains). Albany Park 7th July 1935. Falconwood 1st January 1936


The original July 1926 electric service was
From Charing Cross (peak, off peak), Cannon Street (peak, off peak), trains per hour

Plumstead via Greenwich 1, 1, 2, 1
Dartford via Blackheath, Woolwich 1, 1, 2, 1
Dartford via Bexleyheath 1, 1, 2, 1
Dartford via Sidcup 1, 1, 2, 1
Orpington 1, 1, 1, 1
Bromley North 1, 1, 2, 1
Beckenham Junction 1, 1, 2, 1
Hayes 1, 1, 0, 0
Addiscombe 1, 1, 3, 1

The 1925-26 electrification used new underframes with bodies from ex SECR 6 wheelers and bodies from some 4 wheel close coupled sets. Initially as 3car trains, but with 2car trailer sets that could be formed in middle (copying the LSWR sets out of Waterloo)

 

[Springs Branch]

Mr W Pedia does - it was an Orpington to Victoria service.

Yes, with a bit of elementary research (which I neglected to do) there's a fair bit of on-line info about this case: the victim was named Deborah Linsley, murdered on a mid-afternoon Orpington to Victoria via Herne Hill train in March 1988. So nothing to do with the Dartford routes.

There's an article on Wikipedia at . . . .

Murder of Deborah Linsley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One suggestion made at the time was that Ms Linsley was travelling on her own in a non-corridor compartment because that's where the remaining smoking accommodation was located in 4-EPBs.

The murderer was never identified. However the attacker's DNA was collected from the scene and has been retained - meaning there's still some possibly of an eventual cold case resolution using modern DNA analysis techniques.