Dartmouth Steam Railway

[BayPaul]

The Dartmouth Steam Railway is run by people who know how to run a railway without subsidy. Perhaps it is best to leave it to them to decide whether an year round rail service would be viable.

Indeed. Arguably they are about the only people in the country who manage to do this! Perhaps they should take over more of the mainline rather than vice versa (sarcasm in case this isn't obvious!)

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. Arguably they are about the only people in the country who manage to do this! Perhaps they should take over more of the mainline rather than vice versa (sarcasm in case this isn't obvious!)

I certainly wouldn't be in favour of any GWR extensions reopenings improved services in remote parts of the West country until they can provide a minimum of 5 cars per hour reliably on Portsmouth- Cardiff.

 

[AndrewE]

All good points, but there is something extra in the railway network and I think some modest extensions at the edges would bring more passengers. Of course we need to maximise capacity on lots of routes first (an immediate gain) which longer trains would deliver for us.

 

[Titfield]

As we learned from the Swanage Railway's attempt to run a regular dmu service to Wareham.

The financial issue of the Swanage Railway appears to have been more about the cost of having to hire in a mainline operator (WCR) to operate the service rather than the effects of the £2 bus fare though publicly it blamed the £2 fare.

Swanage Railways Wareham service (whether self operated or hired in) is financially hindered by a mainline access charge, a mainline station access charge and iui the mainline running insurance premium which is significant.

 

[SwindonManor]

The DSR have a very efficient operation - I understand that they can run a full day of their 1 train service with just 8 operational staff - including train crew, signaller and station staff. They concentrate on profitable activities. At a time when other heritage railways are struggling, this seems like a very sensible strategy. I strongly suspect that they carry more passengers to Kingswear than if the line became part of the national rail network again - the combination of useful tourist transport and steam works very well.

I think it would be great if GWR could run a couple of DMU services in the morning and evening before / after the steam services, but I suspect they would struggle to compete with the buses given the £2 fare and reasonable frequency.

You know what I always knew it was a business but I have just realised it's almost like public transport and not focused on heritage alone and yes probably because the #120 is every hour I used it once to get to Kingswear to film the Train of Lights. However it does not run that early or late into the morning/evening so they could sneak one or two in but people would probably just wait it out to get a cheaper fare from the bus not the train.

 

[paul1609]

The financial issue of the Swanage Railway appears to have been more about the cost of having to hire in a mainline operator (WCR) to operate the service rather than the effects of the £2 bus fare though publicly it blamed the £2 fare.

Swanage Railways Wareham service (whether self operated or hired in) is financially hindered by a mainline access charge, a mainline station access charge and iui the mainline running insurance premium which is significant.

I personally think that WCR in respect of the Wareham Trains is a red herring if they are operating your own trains (the DMU). Running heritage trains on to the mainline is very expensive. The NYMR pay an arm and a leg for the Whitby service but there is a sufficient demand at a premium (by public transport standards) fares because Whitby itself is a destination. The Wareham trains wont ever generate that sort of demand because if youve driven to Wareham you might as well drive to Norden. None of the standard gauge heritage railways with a mainline connection generate enough business from the mainline to cover those costs. Even in the BR era the Dart Valley built their own station and pulled out of Totnes because of the high costs involved. Ive spoken to at least one general manager who wanted his railway to pull out of a joint with the mainline station (no running on NR rails) and build their own station down the road to save on costs. he felt that the mainline gained far more benefit from the heritage railway than vice versa.

 

[John Luxton]

Indeed. Arguably they are about the only people in the country who manage to do this! Perhaps they should take over more of the mainline rather than vice versa (sarcasm in case this isn't obvious!)

The Dart Valley people also have much experience in pleasure steamer / ferry operations as well, commercially running the preserved PS KINGSWEAR CASTLE owned by Paddle Steamer Preservation Society as is PS WAVERLEY. One wonders if their skill in profitable pleasure steamer operation could be sold out to other struggling operators such Mersey Ferries - run by Merseytravel which has become something of a joke here on Merseyside.

I think it would be great if GWR could run a couple of DMU services in the morning and evening before / after the steam services, but I suspect they would struggle to compete with the buses given the £2 fare and reasonable frequency.

But do people always chose the bus because it is cheaper?

Someone I know does not like using the bus even though it would be just as convenient as the train.

His comment is "the bus stops too much and takes too long" he also seems to think that there exists a greater chance of encountering antisocial behaviour on a bus.

I have tried persuading him otherwise as recently as Thursday but have never had any success.

 

[MarkyT]

I personally think that WCR in respect of the Wareham Trains is a red herring if they are operating your own trains (the DMU). Running heritage trains on to the mainline is very expensive. The NYMR pay an arm and a leg for the Whitby service but there is a sufficient demand at a premium (by public transport standards) fares because Whitby itself is a destination. The Wareham trains wont ever generate that sort of demand because if youve driven to Wareham you might as well drive to Norden. None of the standard gauge heritage railways with a mainline connection generate enough business from the mainline to cover those costs. Even in the BR era the Dart Valley built there own station and pulled out of Totnes because of the high costs involved.

The SDR site at Ashburton Junction wasn't far away but was on the wrong side of the river Dart for access to the BR station and town. The railway built a platform where passengers could get off the train while the loco ran around, but they couldn't leave the site. The only land access to the railway was through private farming land, whose proprietor was notoriously unfriendly. The agreement to run into the BR station commenced in 1985 and involved paying for a BR 'pilot' crew for the short run and having weekly fitness to run inspections on locos and stock by fitters from Laira. A key release instrument was provided on the up platform which proved possession of the branch train staff and on insertion and withdrawal that released a signal (a semaphore initially) for the move to the branch. Exeter resignalling was underway at the time and plans were changed at Totnes to replicate the facility in the new colour light scheme. After three years of expense and difficulty, the railway settled on the notion of a new footbridge across the Dart to provide main line and town access from their own site, and pulled out of the agreement. They reverted to running round in their isolated site for a few years until 1993 when the new £173,000 bridge finally opened having been funded by the railway, local authorities and other organisations. A rare breeds farm attraction soon appeared near the SDR station, particularly popular with children, and they also operate a cafe.

Ive spoken to at least one general manager who wanted his railway to pull out of a joint with the mainline station (no running on NR rails) and build their own station down the road to save on costs. he felt that the mainline gained far more benefit from the heritage railway than vice versa.

I guess ground rent and other fees for use of the common facilities on a shared station can add up. Gated ticketed areas could also be a difficulty depending on the overall access layout. A separate facility within a short walk can be preferable in many cases. Wareham's problem is that Worgret Junction is too far from the town and mainline station for this approach (about 1 mile) and there's no abandoned formation alongside the main line on which to lay an independent track to get closer.

 

[Ashley Hill]

n 1985 and involved paying for a BR 'pilot' crew for the short run

That was a turn that was either loved or loathed by BR drivers and Guards. Many BR ex steam drivers spent the whole day on the footplate reliving their youth. Officially the crews would only be on board between the mainline and connecting line on all trips. Most just rode it in first thing and then just watch it go out of the mainline platform for the rest of the day. Others looked around the town taking in the sights and (ahem) refreshments. Some disliked the turn as they found it boring and attracted no mileage payment.

 

[paul1609]

The SDR site at Ashburton Junction wasn't far away but was on the wrong side of the river Dart for access to the BR station and town. The railway built a platform where passengers could get off the train while the loco ran around, but they couldn't leave the site. The only land access to the railway was through private farming land, whose proprietor was notoriously unfriendly. The agreement to run into the BR station commenced in 1985 and involved paying for a BR 'pilot' crew for the short run and having weekly fitness to run inspections on locos and stock by fitters from Laira. A key release instrument was provided on the up platform which proved possession of the branch train staff and on insertion and withdrawal that released a signal (a semaphore initially) for the move to the branch. Exeter resignalling was underway at the time and plans were changed at Totnes to replicate the facility in the new colour light scheme. After three years of expense and difficulty, the railway settled on the notion of a new footbridge across the Dart to provide main line and town access from their own site, and pulled out of the agreement. They reverted to running round in their isolated site for a few years until 1993 when the new £173,000 bridge finally opened having been funded by the railway, local authorities and other organisations. A rare breeds farm attraction soon appeared near the SDR station, particularly popular with children, and they also operate a cafe.

I guess ground rent and other fees for use of the common facilities on a shared station can add up. Gated ticketed areas could also be a difficulty depending on the overall access layout. A separate facility within a short walk can be preferable in many cases. Wareham's problem is that Worgret Junction is too far from the town and mainline station for this approach (about 1 mile) and there's no abandoned formation alongside the main line on which to lay an independent track to get closer.

Remind me was it the Dart valley Railway (the present Dartmouth Steam Railway Co) that pulled out of Totnes or had the volunteers bought the line to form the South Devon Railway by then?

 

[John Luxton]

Remind me was it the Dart valley Railway (the present Dartmouth Steam Railway Co) that pulled out of Totnes or had the volunteers bought the line to form the South Devon Railway by then?

According to the South Devon Railway web site the SDRA took over in 1991 details below:

The first train under SDR operation ran on 29th March 1991 with BR(W) pannier tank locomotive 1638 and a rake of former BR coaches, all hired from the Dart Valley company."

In 2000, the SDR started negotiations to purchase the freehold of the line from the DVR for £1.15m, the money being raised through a share issue, loans, donations and revenue. In 2002, the DVR granted the SDR a 199 lease on condition of a new Transport & Works Order being granted to the SDR (a legal requirement), which would grant the final transfer of the freehold title from the DVR to the SDR for the payment of a nominal £1.

 

[Belperpete]

I don't think anyone who understands what the word preserved means would find anything 'controversial ' about my post.

Are you using some different definition of "preserved" to my dictionary?

Preserved: something kept in its original state.

The SMR seems to fit that definition admirably, in fact I struggle to think of any other heritage railway that is better preserved (the Great Orme tramway, perhaps?). It is the original railway, carrying out its original function, on its original route, using much of its original infrastructure. You can still ride up to the top of Snowdon powered by the exactly same steam loco as the Victorians did.

It would seem to be far better preserved than either the Talyllyn or Bluebell, for example, neither of which now much resemble what was there pre-preservation. The DSR is a more debatable case, as I understand some of the stock may have run on the line originally, and the line was mainly built for tourists, but not run in the way it is currently being operated.

 

[REVUpminster]

Are you using some different definition of "preserved" to my dictionary?

Preserved: something kept in its original state.

The SMR seems to fit that definition admirably, in fact I struggle to think of any other heritage railway that is better preserved (the Great Orme tramway, perhaps?). It is the original railway, carrying out its original function, on its original route, using much of its original infrastructure. You can still ride up to the top of Snowdon powered by the exactly same steam loco as the Victorians did.

It would seem to be far better preserved than either the Talyllyn or Bluebell, for example, neither of which now much resemble what was there pre-preservation. The DSR is a more debatable case, as I understand some of the stock may have run on the line originally, and the line was mainly built for tourists, but not run in the way it is currently being operated.

I don't think the DSR was ever built for tourists but to access Dartmouth and the naval college. Torquay was were the recruits did their Friday and Saturday nights. Tourism to Torquay and Paignton did bring about the doubling of tracks.
There was also fish traffic from Brixham and also a huge underground oil storage facility from the war.

 

[MarkyT]

I don't think the DSR was ever built for tourists but to access Dartmouth and the naval college. Torquay was were the recruits did their Friday and Saturday nights. Tourism to Torquay and Paignton did bring about the doubling of tracks.
There was also fish traffic from Brixham and also a huge underground oil storage facility from the war.

The air ministry fuel store near Brixham wasn't massive but part of a network of over 70 such sites across the country built during WW2 for resilience. Some were linked to long-distance pipelines but the Brixham one was only connected to the local jetty for deliveries by coastal shipping. Outgoing movements were by rail to wherever needed. The fuel plan was extraordinarily successful with only two individual fuel tanks destroyed by enemy action throughout the course of the war.

There was also coal for the local town gas plant at Hollicombe, brought by coastal shipping from the North East into Kingswear then taken by rail to 'Gas House Siding' between Torquay and Paignton. Torre was Torquay's main freight hub with extensive general goods facilities and coal yards. Torquay dealt with parcels and mail but never had much freight otherwise. Paignton had the usual range of goods traffic and the old main goods shed building survives today as the passenger station main entrance and ticket hall.

Torquay in the late 18th and early 19th centuries was a very rich genteel place, a Mediteranean-like (allegedly) haven for the rich and influential in society. This was very different from the town's later mass tourism period. The railway arrived into that elite world in 1840s and initially set about serving their needs. There was a regular turnover of lucrative London passengers many of whom owned second homes around the bay. The railway was instrumental in allowing the holiday boom to occur subsequently of course.

 

[simonw]

Are you using some different definition of "preserved" to my dictionary?

Preserved: something kept in its original state.

The SMR seems to fit that definition admirably, in fact I struggle to think of any other heritage railway that is better preserved (the Great Orme tramway, perhaps?). It is the original railway, carrying out its original function, on its original route, using much of its original infrastructure. You can still ride up to the top of Snowdon powered by the exactly same steam loco as the Victorians did.

It would seem to be far better preserved than either the Talyllyn or Bluebell, for example, neither of which now much resemble what was there pre-preservation. The DSR is a more debatable case, as I understand some of the stock may have run on the line originally, and the line was mainly built for tourists, but not run in the way it is currently being operated.

Heritage railways aren't preserved. Snowdon may use the same route but uses replacement track and rolling stock from when it was opened (except for few steam trips). some of its stock qualified as almost new.

It is not kept in its original state; it no more qualifies to be called preserved than network rail.

Trigger's broom springs to mind.

 

[BrianW]

Heritage railways aren't preserved. Snowdon may use the same route but uses replacement track and rolling stock from when it was opened (except for few steam trips). some of its stock qualified as almost new.

It is not kept in its original state; it no more qualifies to be called preserved than network rail.

Trigger's broom springs to mind.

Preservation in aspic is very restrictive. Toilets emptying onto tracks,etc? People wearing 'historic' costumes, paying fares at 1d per mile, or less!!

People 'want' Listed Buildings to be 'preserved'- no gas or electric light, etc ...?

We have Conservation Areas- they allow and control the presence and passage of motor vehicles in lieu of barrows and costermongers. EV charging will be accommodated. We move on.