DB 101+IC1 withdrawal

[Stephen Lee]

According to wikipedia, some DB 101s are scrapped to give way to IC2, ICE-4 and in the future ECx which will replace the IC1 sets, so I wondered if the METs will be withdrawn too? If the 101s withdrawn, which type of loco will be the traction of Nightjets in Germany?

 

[43096]

According to wikipedia, some DB 101s are scrapped to give way to IC2, ICE-4 and in the future ECx which will replace the IC1 sets, so I wondered if the METs will be withdrawn too?

It’s a classic cascade with the new ICE sets cascading the ICE1 and 2 sets to replace IC+101 formations. The ICE1 sets are going through a further refurbishment and being reduced to 2+9 formations currently.

If the 101s withdrawn, which type of loco will be the traction of Nightjets in Germany?

ÖBB Tauri and/or Vectrons in all probability, especially as the new Nightjets seem to be fixed formations with driving trailers for push/pull operation.

 

[StephenHunter]

At a guess, Vectrons; the new fixed sets have Vectron style cabs in the driving trailers.

 

[JonasB]

the new fixed sets have Vectron style cabs in the driving trailers.

That's probably just because they are both Siemens products and when you need to build a driving trailer, why design a new cab when you already have one that works?

 

[superjohn]

The MET sets are strange survivors. There are only two diagrams left, both for seven car sets, and one of those only runs at the weekend. Where they are used DB often pass them off as ICE. I suspect they are being rinsed until their next overhaul is due and they will then be withdrawn.

Some class 101 have already been withdrawn, more as a result of being replaced on Munich to Nuremberg RE work than anything else. Others are clinging on due to the ongoing problems with the class 147+IC2 sets. There will be a rundown of class 101 and classic IC stock but it will inevitably be very slow and undergo many revisions.

I can imagine DB traction on Nightjet trains will be phased out entirely in due course. OBB locos already work deep into all corners of Germany so it would seem the obvious next step.

 

[43096]

Some class 101 have already been withdrawn

101112/119 were delivered to Herr Bender at Opladen for scrapping yesterday.

 

[popeter45]

what would be the timeframe for full IC+101 removal?
would it be before or after the ECx stock arrive and if so would that need a interim for the Amsterdam-Berlin service?

 

[43096]

what would be the timeframe for full IC+101 removal?

There was a good article a few months ago in Today's Railways Europe about the "Deutschland Takt" plan and its impact on traction and rolling stock. Full 101+stock removal was predicted for the late 2020s, but obviously on an ongoing basis over that time, starting from now.

would it be before or after the ECx stock arrive and if so would that need a interim for the Amsterdam-Berlin service?

After. The ECx stock is part of the plan for replacing the existing IC stock.

 

[Austriantrain]

That's probably just because they are both Siemens products and when you need to build a driving trailer, why design a new cab when you already have one that works?

Exactly, nothing to do with which loco will haul the NJ sets. The new control cars have a Vectron cab because the old Taurus cab doesn’t conform to current crash norms anymore.

In fact, on many routes it is highly likely that a Taurus will be used - at the moment it seems that the ÖBB-Vectrons will stick to freight and thus make available more 1x16 for passenger services (and since remaining „regional“ push-pull trains, often operated by 1x16, will be replaced by EMUs, that is even more the case).

 

[StephenHunter]

There is a Vectron in NJ livery though.

 

[Austriantrain]

There is a Vectron in NJ livery though.

Yes, specifically for NJ services to Amsterdam. I don’t think ÖBB 1216 are approved there, and in any case there are not yet enough of them (will be easier when they are alle replaced by Vectrons on freight). On the day the Brussels service runs, you need a separate loco to Amsterdam from Köln anyway. It does make sense to have separate locos then.

I don’t think anyone can say yet how it is going to be once the new NJ sets run to Amsterdam. If it is easier to have a Vectron run throughout than a Taurus, then that is what will be done. I wouldn’t rule out a loco change on route though; as I pointed out, the push-pull abilities are there for other reasons.

But we are in the wrong thread, I think…

 

[superalbs]

Yes, specifically for NJ services to Amsterdam. I don’t think ÖBB 1216 are approved there, and in any case there are not yet enough of them (will be easier when they are alle replaced by Vectrons on freight). On the day the Brussels service runs, you need a separate loco to Amsterdam from Köln anyway. It does make sense to have separate locos then.

I don’t think anyone can say yet how it is going to be once the new NJ sets run to Amsterdam. If it is easier to have a Vectron run throughout than a Taurus, then that is what will be done. I wouldn’t rule out a loco change on route though; as I pointed out, the push-pull abilities are there for other reasons.

But we are in the wrong thread, I think…

I've only seen an NS livery on the Amsterdam NJ runs.

 

[DanielB]

I've only seen an NS livery on the Amsterdam NJ runs.

The NS Vectron is only pulling the Nightjet between Amsterdam and Köln.

 

[superalbs]

The NS Vectron is only pulling the Nightjet between Amsterdam and Köln.

I know, so what is the NJ livery Vectron doing?

 

[87015]

I know, so what is the NJ livery Vectron doing?

Freight, like the rest of them!

 

[Austriantrain]

I've only seen an NS livery on the Amsterdam NJ runs.

Sorry, I got it wrong and read „NS“ instead of „NJ“.

 

[superalbs]

Sorry, I got it wrong and read „NS“ instead of „NJ“.

Oh, I understand now.

 

[Stephen Lee]

It’s a classic cascade with the new ICE sets cascading the ICE1 and 2 sets to replace IC+101 formations. The ICE1 sets are going through a further refurbishment and being reduced to 2+9 formations currently.

ÖBB Tauri and/or Vectrons in all probability, especially as the new Nightjets seem to be fixed formations with driving trailers for push/pull operation.

I think the ICE-1 and ICE-2 will be phased out.........

The class 101s still looked very young, why DB have to scrap them so earlier.........

The MET sets are strange survivors. There are only two diagrams left, both for seven car sets, and one of those only runs at the weekend. Where they are used DB often pass them off as ICE. I suspect they are being rinsed until their next overhaul is due and they will then be withdrawn.

Some class 101 have already been withdrawn, more as a result of being replaced on Munich to Nuremberg RE work than anything else. Others are clinging on due to the ongoing problems with the class 147+IC2 sets. There will be a rundown of class 101 and classic IC stock but it will inevitably be very slow and undergo many revisions.

I can imagine DB traction on Nightjet trains will be phased out entirely in due course. OBB locos already work deep into all corners of Germany so it would seem the obvious next step.

Anyone have status of the Class 147+IC2 sets? Hope problems will be solved ASAP after Alstom's acquisition to Bombardier.

 

[43096]

I think the ICE-1 and ICE-2 will be phased out.........

The ICE1 fleet is currently going through refurbishment to keep them running for another 10 years.

The class 101s still looked very young, why DB have to scrap them so earlier.........

The problem for the 101s is that the stock they haul is much older. The ICE1/2 trailers are much newer so it makes sense to keep them instead, and if you do that you keep the power cars and don’t need the 101s.

Although the 101s are slightly new than the ICE1/2 power cars they are older technology in some ways, as the ICE power cars have been getting new IGBT power converters.

 

[DanielB]

The class 101s still looked very young, why DB have to scrap them so earlier.........

What I've read on a German forum is that although the class 101 is young in terms of years of service, they aren't in terms of mileage. As these locos have mainly been in use pulling high speed IC-services there's the side effect that they easily did 2000 km a day, more than double the dayly mileage of many older classes.

 

[Stephen Lee]

What I've read on a German forum is that although the class 101 is young in terms of years of service, they aren't in terms of mileage. As these locos have mainly been in use pulling high speed IC-services there's the side effect that they easily did 2000 km a day, more than double the dayly mileage of many older classes.

Can you explain why most of the class 103s can survive until the end of the life cycle.......

 

[Alfonso]

Can you explain why most of the class 103s can survive until the end of the life cycle.......

Probably as there were still lots of loco hauled secondary trains and routes then. But now more and more stuff is EMU or push pull so there may be no secondary role for the 101s

 

[Stephen Lee]

Probably as there were still lots of loco hauled secondary trains and routes then. But now more and more stuff is EMU or push pull so there may be no secondary role for the 101s

OK

It’s a classic cascade with the new ICE sets cascading the ICE1 and 2 sets to replace IC+101 formations. The ICE1 sets are going through a further refurbishment and being reduced to 2+9 formations currently.

ÖBB Tauri and/or Vectrons in all probability, especially as the new Nightjets seem to be fixed formations with driving trailers for push/pull operation.

so what routes will the ICE-1/2 be cascaded to....... Looks like
InterCity Nowadays=InterRegio in the past while
ICE nowadays=IC in the past.

 

[JonasB]

What I've read on a German forum is that although the class 101 is young in terms of years of service, they aren't in terms of mileage. As these locos have mainly been in use pulling high speed IC-services there's the side effect that they easily did 2000 km a day, more than double the dayly mileage of many older classes.

In addition there is also the DB habit of scrapping vehicles rather than risk them being used by a competitor.

 

[43096]

In addition there is also the DB habit of scrapping vehicles rather than risk them being used by a competitor.

Which is a bit pointless, because there's some money to be had if they sell them on. It's not like the open access operators don't have a choice for 200km/h locos: if DB aren't interested in hiring out/selling, MRCE, ELL, Railpool etc will happily lease a 200km/h capable Taurus or Vectron.

 

[317666]

Can you explain why most of the class 103s can survive until the end of the life cycle.......

Most of the 103s only managed 25 - 30 years in service, which is roughly what most of the 101s should manage. As DanielB says, the class have been worked hard. It's a similar story with the 373s and some older generation TGVs.

 

[JonasB]

Which is a bit pointless, because there's some money to be had if they sell them on. It's not like the open access operators don't have a choice for 200km/h locos: if DB aren't interested in hiring out/selling, MRCE, ELL, Railpool etc will happily lease a 200km/h capable Taurus or Vectron.

It certainly is, but is seems to be their policy. When SL wanted some used 420s for the Stockholm commuter trains DB did not want to sell any, but created a Swedish subsidiary that leased the trains to SL.

 

[317666]

In addition there is also the DB habit of scrapping vehicles rather than risk them being used by a competitor.

I don't think this happens nearly as much as it used to - DB have got all sorts of stock in 'Stillstandsmanagement' waiting for potential buyers.

 

[DanielB]

I don't think this happens nearly as much as it used to - DB have got all sorts of stock in 'Stillstandsmanagement' waiting for potential buyers.

When they have the same policy as NS, those buyers will probably be somewhere abroad where DB doesn't have any competition from them. And if competitors want to lease something, they'll probably get the oldest crap that they have available

 

[D365]

101112/119 were delivered to Herr Bender at Opladen for scrapping yesterday.

Imagine if the 101s had been locomotives in the UK - the Speculative Ideas subforum would be awash with fury!